Board 8 > King of Fighters 2020 (NOT MERCS) R2D25: Doomslayer vs Liquidator (Mid) 2

(+) Yeah! (+)

Welcome to the King of Fighters 2020 (NOT MERCS) Simulated Character Battle Tournament!

The game is simple. The two* listed characters are placed in an (imaginary) location with a variety of (imaginary) environments, kind of like a picture in a child's schoolbook that describes different types of geological features. Within a ten mile radius, there is an (imaginary) urban downtown, exurbs, plains, snow-clad mountains at the edge, dry plains, etc. Fighters start wherever is most appropriate for them, but feel increasingly compelled to seek out their opponent and fight. Strong-willed fighters can try to hold out in their chosen environment for longer... eventually, all will succumb and actively search for the other to battle.

To participate, just vote in bold for whichever character you believe will win. Giving reasoning is optional, but please be polite and read what others have said and carefully make your decision. I'll ping the nominators (they can opt out) to give arguments if they wish.

Results/Discussion: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/78797189

TODAY'S PARTICIPANTS:
The Doomslayer (DOOM)
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RIP AND TEAR! RIP AND TEAR! RIP AND TEAR! RIP AND TEAR! (doesn't have any doom eternal equipment)

vs

The Liquidator (Darkwing Duck)
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@KanzarisKelshen

FIGHT

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not iconic enough to exist before this year (or to get into the first game, at least)

I think I'm going to rerun this day with that weapon explicitly banned, because a mid character having a weapon that insta-kills almost everything, even immortals, is stupid, even by this game's standard

Pasting this from the last topic to say that's wrong and you didn't read what I wrote about the Crucible. Not only does it appear in 2016, it's plot vital and you need it to finish the game. It's not a usable weapon, but the Slayer carries it even there for like, what, the final third of the game? It's why banning it is nonsense.

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oh yeah, and Doomslayer still, even with this nonsensical repeat. He gets the Siphoning grenades in Doom 2016 (which didn't reappear in Eternal) which actively lifesteal enemies and refill both his health and armor gauge. Even if you assume the hell energy-powered BFG can't kill the Liquidator by vaporizing him completely, he can still get lifestealed to death nonetheless.

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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Pasting this from the last topic to say that's wrong and you didn't read what I wrote about the Crucible. Not only does it appear in 2016, it's plot vital and you need it to finish the game. It's not a usable weapon, but the Slayer carries it even there for like, what, the final third of the game? It's why banning it is nonsense.

Yeah, that's why I asked about the Doomslayer's pre-Eternal stopping power last topic, because it sounds like that would still be an easy way for him to win if he has any. Now, you could argue that he'd still be too powerful for Mid due to still having the Crucible, but he sure wouldn't be the first mistiered character in the absence of actual discussion to inform NFUN beforehand, so meh.

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Anyway, I see this fight going more or less in this sequence, knowing both of them: Doomguy shoots. Nothing. Doomguy chainsaws. Nothing. Doomguy BFGs. Liquidator explodes, decides to go reform himself in a lake

...at that point I don't know. Cryo grenades do not have the output to deal with Liquidator if he finds a big enough source of water

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Doomslayer has other ways to win this so yeah

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What is Liquidator going to do? What are his offensive feats? The Wiki says he can make water constructs and water monsters and I can only assume they'd lose to your average Doom demon.

you implied that the weapon didn't come out until eternal, kanz, either directly or by implication, depending on if you're worse at communicating or logic

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MetalmindStats posted...

Yeah, that's why I asked about the Doomslayer's pre-Eternal stopping power last topic, because it sounds like that would still be an easy way for him to win if he has any. Now, you could argue that he'd still be too powerful for Mid due to still having the Crucible, but he sure wouldn't be the first mistiered character in the absence of actual discussion to inform NFUN beforehand, so meh.

Just to go over the weaponry that could potentially get the job done outside the Siphoning grenades then:

-Plasma Rifle for obvious reasons would be good here, but one specific ability it has is the Heat Blast, a concentrated discharge so strong it straight up scythes enemies in half.
-BFG 9000 needs no introduction. The same, but more here. Way more.
-If we count multiplayer weaponry, we have the Hellshot (flaming attacks), Tesla Rockets and Lightning Gun (electricity blasts), and Reaper (tortured souls murder you).

So there's like, three minimum and like seven maximum options that could put the Liquidator down for good. Which one you think does the deed is up to you.

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yeah with or without doomboy wins

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NFUN posted...

you implied that the weapon didn't come out until eternal, kanz, either directly or by implication, depending on if you're worse at communicating or logic

The sword is basically a lightsaber made of pure soul energy that can kill things that would otherwise not die. In Doom 2016, you use one version of it to kill the elemental undead wraiths powering Hell by stabbing them with its hilt and your main ally/enemy (frenemy?) states that with the sword now carrying their souls they can use it to power all of earth's energy grid.

?

Idk how to be clearer. What else could I have done?

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i don't see how those options would put the liquidator down for good when he explicitly can survive vaporization (which i got the impression wouldn't count as a suppression)

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NFUN posted...

i don't see how those options would put the liquidator down for good when he explicitly can survive vaporization (which i got the impression wouldn't count as a suppression)

If there's no moisture in the air, there's no way for him to respawn, afaik. I kinda wanna say that a BFG explosion probably just utterly eradicates the Liquidator since he's gonna get superheated so hard?

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kanz:

Noms were in like 2017, right? Doom Eternal wasn't out yet at that point so I'm not surprised somebody missed it. It has been a while after all

me:

in that case... i'm not entirely sure he should be able to use new gear...

your post can be read as an implication it wasn't in the original game, bolstered by it being somewhat of a non sequitur if it wasn't, since a) most of the characters are in the contest are from much older and less-known media and especially b) i had a topic about tiering in 2020. Logic

You can argue that that's not a valid interpretation, which is fair... and then I made a post where I had the erroneous impression that the crucible was a new weapon, which you responded to and failed to correct. Communication

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KanzarisKelshen posted...

If there's no moisture in the air, there's no way for him to respawn, afaik. I kinda wanna say that a BFG explosion probably just utterly eradicates the Liquidator since he's gonna get superheated so hard?

moisture goes into the air when he, y'know, vaporizes. even if he gets ionized, the water would recombine pretty quickly back to a normal gas

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NFUN posted...

moisture goes into the air when he, y'know, vaporizes. even if he gets ionized, the water would recombine pretty quickly back to a normal gas

Would the Liquidator survive ionization, though? That's a point where matter is very, very far from a liquid state. The way I see it, it's like...even in the worst case scenario, the Slayer can KO the Liquidator for a while, but the Liquidator has no way to finish off the Slayer because he's so much tankier and harder to kill. It's more likely that eventually the Slayer will get a 10-count than the other way around.

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rwlh posted...

What is Liquidator going to do? What are his offensive feats? The Wiki says he can make water constructs and water monsters and I can only assume they'd lose to your average Doom demon.

Total control of water. Off the top of my head, he made all the water in a bay solid to trap the ships in it. Can boil and unboil any source of water. Outside of that, he usually goes to manipulating sources of water and trying to drown you with it

Defensively, he got evaporated in his first appearance. Ignored it, turned into steam and reformed. Then he was frozen and smashed. Reformed. Basically he just keeps going unless you find something to trap him with

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Does Liquidator have enough control where he can do the stupid Magnetoesque "He messes with the water in the opponent's body to kill them" thing?

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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Would the Liquidator survive ionization, though? That's a point where matter is very, very far from a liquid state. The way I see it, it's like...even in the worst case scenario, the Slayer can KO the Liquidator for a while, but the Liquidator has no way to finish off the Slayer because he's so much tankier and harder to kill. It's more likely that eventually the Slayer will get a 10-count than the other way around.

it's water missing an electron, which is not that different, or water missing/having a hydrogen, which is natural in normal water. for these purposes it's a bigger change from liquid to gas than from gas to plasma. if the chemical bonds are split, that'd be another story, but you'd need temperatures of like 3000 celsius to achieve meaningful thermolysis, which I doubt even Doomslayer can achieve

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Guessing Liquidator could do stupid Magneto feats, although whether he thinks of doing it is another matter. There was one episode where Negaduck stole his powers, then literally parted an entire damn ocean with them. Liquidator was like "I really should have thought of that"

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Mewtwo59 posted...

Does Liquidator have enough control where he can do the stupid Magnetoesque "He messes with the water in the opponent's body to kill them" thing?

Doubt it, but i could see the thought on trying to drown with water easily possible. I'd say a huge part of the battle is going to have to come down to location. In a blank area, I give the Doomslayer the advantage, but fights aren't done in Final Destination.

DeathChicken posted...

Guessing Liquidator could do stupid Magneto feats, although whether he thinks of doing it is another matter. There was one episode where Negavolt stole his powers, then literally parted an entire damn ocean with them. Liquidator was like "I really should have thought of that"

yeah I don't see Liquidator thinking of doing anything crazy... at first. If it comes down to a prolonged stalemate, would Liquidator be the type to start getting inventive and trying new things, or would he act like the cartoon villain he is and happily slam his head against a wall for eternity?

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For whatever it's worth, the Slayer's weapons can pack multiple megawatts of energy at a minimum (that's his basic pistol), and one of his non-heat based weapons generates hot enough temperatures to ionize argon gas into plasma. This is the lore entry on the Argent Energy that powers his weaponry:

Argent Energy is produced by neutron activation of Argent plasma, a new and powerful substance that was discovered on Mars. This produces an exothermic reaction where recorded temperatures within the plasma have exceeded previously accepted theoretical limits. Through a process not yet fully understood, Argent plasma remains stable and self-contained throughout. Conventional nuclear power is obsolete. What used to take a nuclear reactor 12 months to produce can be generated in a few seconds by the Argent Tower and packaged into an Argent Accumulator no larger than Samuel Hayden's hand.

Argent plasma was originally discovered by the SS Amundsen when it landed in the Promethei Terra region of Mars in 2095 as part of the UAC geological survey mission Frontier. While searching for liquid water springs, the Survey-Bot discovered a narrow trench which has now become known as the "Argent Fracture". This fracture emitted a substance that at first appeared to be an electrical gas cloud.

However, deeper analysis of the substance showed it to be an entirely new form of matter with a quantum signature never before recorded. Initial tests on this new matter immediately showed its potential. When a 2 megakelvin cutting laser was fired at the substance, it absorbed the heat with ease and remained self-contained. A second expedition was planned to further analyze this remarkable new "Argent plasma".

There has been speculation that the development of Argent Energy goes beyond traditional science and bleeds into the realm of SEFT (Spiritual Energy Field Theory). Experiments in this fringe science have been heavily criticized in the past as their development often involves "occult" like practices and the channeling of resources from poorly understood extradimensional resources. Coupled with the reports of cultish practices within the UAC, there are deep concerns over how Argent Energy is being produced, and if it is indeed safe.

The UAC has refused to reveal the details, despite repeated requests by the Global Science Council. Despite concern over the safety of producing energy with a process that is not fully understood, the need for a reliable energy source since the depletion of plutonium and uranium reserves is a powerful argument. When the UAC unveiled an Argent Energy powered, hand sized 24-volt battery with over 12,000 megawatt-hours, the future of energy supply within the Solar System was set. One battery array could power an entire city block for several months. Researchers at the Global Science Council have speculated that the UAC's most advanced battery technology, the Argent Accumulator, can hold over 30,000 megawatt-hours but that the UAC is deliberately bottlenecking the production to maintain control over the market value. The UAC has no comment on the matter.

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NFUN posted...

yeah I don't see Liquidator thinking of doing anything crazy... at first. If it comes down to a prolonged stalemate, would Liquidator be the type to start getting inventive and trying new things, or would he act like the cartoon villain he is and happily slam his head against a wall for eternity?

Well, he definitely seems like the type to mix up his attacks. Going back to his first appearance, he goes from shapeshifting himself into a wrecking ball, to the aforementioned trapping in solid water, to water minions, to springing a pit of boiling water out of nowhere, to chasing Darkwing down with water stolen from a sewer and trying to drown him, to popping out of someone else's glass of water they had nearby, and finally he gets trapped in cement

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i did some really bad math and got a required temperature of 200,000 K to ionize argon so Doomguy I guess.

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I didn't expect this to be such an interesting match.

Wonder how Aang vs. Liquidator would go.

Liquidator has been explicitly stated to be able to survive freezing/evaporation so yeah I don't know what doomguy can do without his sword

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PrinceKaro posted...

Liquidator has been explicitly stated to be able to survive freezing/evaporation so yeah I don't know what doomguy can do without his sword

KanzarisKelshen posted...

and one of his non-heat based weapons generates hot enough temperatures to ionize argon gas into plasma

NFUN posted...

if the chemical bonds are split, that'd be another story, but you'd need temperatures of like 3000 celsius to achieve meaningful thermolysis

NFUN posted...

i did some really bad math and got a required temperature of 200,000 K to ionize argon so Doomguy I guess.

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I mean at this point we're just in speculation at what he can and cant survive because Darkwing Duck doesn't carry a plasma gun with him

But I'm guessing it would be pretty difficult to aim a weapon of any kind while being crushed underwater by the weight of an ocean

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water coming near doomguy would *very quickly* stop being water

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he's gonna shoot an whole tsunami wtih his little gun

okay

he would run out of ammo if nothing else

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Shonen_Bat posted...

Doomslayer has other ways to win this so yeah

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What is Doomslayer's durability like?

Also, Liquidator doesn't strike me as super bright. Even if there was a huge body of water in the arena, I feel like he'd be likely to venture away from it, at least at first, then maybe retreat to it when prior options fail.

Liquidator. I've seen nothing to suggest Doomguy can evaporate a bay-sized body of water, which seems to be Liquidator's go to. Basically, he definitely can't hurt Liquidator with about 99% of his arsenal, and the other 1% is really goddamn shaky

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PrinceKaro posted...

he's gonna shoot an whole tsunami wtih his little gun

okay

he would run out of ammo if nothing else

I don't think you understand the energy levels we're dealing with. His battery pack has at least 12,000 Megawatt-hours of energy. That can vaporize over a million tons of water. That doesn't compare to an ocean, but he doesn't need to vaporize an entire ocean. He only need to vaporize a fraction of it to cause a steam explosion, pushing most of the other water away. He can't keep this up forever. He doesn't need to. It isn't like he lacks mobility and will be stuck on the ground to tank all of this. All he needs is to get a good attack on the Liquidator to break him into H2 and O2, and can fend off attacks while pursuing him. And of course, Doomguy would learn pretty quickly that fighting him by a body of water is a bad idea

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Doomslayer

There are some decent arguments for Liquidator here, but he seems too stupid to figure out how to win before Doomslayer does.
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Doomslayer

Like, Liquidator I'm viewing essentially as a low-tier toonforce in this case, one limited to the fullest extent of his element. I see this as essentially a Mr. Myxlplyx situation; Doomslayer is able to easily beat Liquidator, gets a while to just grocery shop or whatever while Liquidator reforms, eventually turns into an "okay buddy let's settle this once and for all" with Liquidator doing something truly impressive like turning into a massive flood before Doomslayer BFG's through it and then catches the Liquidator vapor inside of a jar or a funko pop of himself or something.

I just don't see Liquidator figuring out a clever way to kill the guy before Doomslayer gets bored and looks around the environment for something that can seal up Liquidator, as he's want to do when he needs an item to progress.

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Doomslayer.

I feel like Liquidator isn't all that intelligent and wouldn't come up with a way to defeat Doomslayer before Doomslayer can defeat him, and it sounds like Doomslayer has the capacity to defeat him.

rwlh posted...

What is Doomslayer's durability like?

Also, Liquidator doesn't strike me as super bright. Even if there was a huge body of water in the arena, I feel like he'd be likely to venture away from it, at least at first, then maybe retreat to it when prior options fail.

Sort of late response, but some quick notes...

-The demons couldn't kill him after centuries (aeons? I forget) of him terrorizing hell. The only way they found to get him to chill was to detonate an entire temple complex and bring it down on his head. This didn't kill him, mind, it just put him in suspended animation because he couldn't move. As soon as he was free from the sarcophagus they put him in, he quickly woke up.
-Remember those battery packs those lore entries talk about? The Slayer's way of powering up his armor is crushing them so they detonate and simply absorbing the energy into the circuits of his armor. This doesn't hurt him in any way, and in fact replenishes his health and armor.
-Speaking purely in gameplay terms, no attack in the game can instantly kill him, and most kind of deal scratch damage (which includes rockets, plasma blasts, corrosive acid, waves of pure hell energy, laser beams...). Depending on what you consider 'peak power' for him, he might get the Saving Throw rune, which gives him an extra life if something kills him. I would personally not give him that one, not because it's OP or noncanon, but because I think he has better ones and I'd expect him to use those over ST, but it's there.
-Very long falls don't hurt him, even setting aside his antigravity boots. There's multiple locations where you take 30-50 ft tumbles and all it does is make him do a three point landing.
-Tanks the energy release from the wraiths powering hell, here, thrice in a row: https://streamable.com/tvsek
-Survives getting electrocuted by a malfunctioning reactor without a scratch: https://streamable.com/zj5yg
-Killed a Titan before getting the Praetor armor that enables all of that, on foot. For reference, this is a Titan: https://ibb.co/YkfVmnT

That little blue glow to the side? Thats a Cacodemon. Cacos are the size of a man, more or less, for a sense of scale. It's unknown how much dodging vs tanking the Slayer had to do, but the titan you do fight in Doom Eternal could call down meteor storms, fire laser beams the size of a man, destroy buildings with a single punch, et cetera. Hopefully this serves to provide a picture of his capabilities?

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oh yeah, and one separate feat because I'm not sure if we can count it or not: in Doom Eternal, the Slayer shoots himself out of a building sized BFG as a projectile. It doesn't hurt him in the slightest. See here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPWRHWBNgw0&feature=youtu.be&t=22m8s

I honestly don't think water is a very good counter to him overall, like in general. He doesn't really seem to care about blunt force trauma.

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PrinceKaro posted...

without his sword

Doomslayer actually does get his sword even before Eternal, not that it matters much in this particular match.

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