Current Events > The job market is so completely and utterly fucked right now

(+) Yeah! (+)

Things have been rough since those coal miners learned to code, too much competition.

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Rathinor posted...

@Nanaimo-Bar
TC, Amazon is having a massive Career Day on the 16th. Virtual job fair, on hand career counselors, resume critiquing. Whole nine yards. For corporate/programming jobs. Check it out.

https://www.amazoncareerday.com

I feel like this is going to have some backwash.

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Solid Sonic posted...

I feel like this is going to have some backwash.

?

I figured CE for one of those "don't involve yourself with Amazon if you can help it" sort of places.

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CommunismFTW posted...

That's the market for the planet right now.

uhm from what my friends are telling me, the market for CS graduates is pretty great right now as usual (in germany)

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Solid Sonic posted...

I figured CE for one of those "don't involve yourself with Amazon if you can help it" sort of places.

Oh, right

LikeImmolation posted...

Yeah! Let me go join the Defense industry and help create bombs to kill people! Or planes or missiles! Let's do iitttt!

Just wanted to add: I have friends who work for those companies. There are purely defensive programs you can work on if have a moral opposition to working on offensive weapons. Of course, then you have to deal with the dissonance of the company selling both the sword and the shield, but almost any job is going to have morally questionable aspects to it.

I like the defense industry from the point of view of someone who works in IT. It's always growing and it lends itself well if you like working with new technologies or stuff that's fresh out of the box.

Plus there's a lot of money in it. The only problem is volatility (which isn't even an issue for the program I'll be joining if I were to get hired on fully at the end of my contract-to-hire phase).

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Tc feel free to DM me your resume (you can leave out personal details)

LikeImmolation posted...

you have no heath insurance and pay your own gas and car maintenance.

No offense, but no.

You can purchase health insurance through Uber. I'm not sure how much it costs or if it's any good since my full time job gives me insurance, but I get the email from Uber every couple of months reminding me it's an option.

And you can write off gas and maintenance when doing taxes.

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Solid Sonic posted...

I like the defense industry from the point of view of someone who works in IT. It's always growing and it lends itself well if you like working with new technologies or stuff that's fresh out of the box.

Plus there's a lot of money in it. The only problem is volatility (which isn't even an issue for the program I'll be joining if I were to get hired on fully at the end of my contract-to-hire phase).

The volatility is a real issue: one of my friends had their program basically evaporate out of the blue over a weekend. Their company worked with them (and everyone on that program from what I've heard) to move them to other programs within the company.

littlebro07 posted...

You can purchase health insurance through Uber. I'm not sure how much it costs or if it's any good since my full time job gives me insurance, but I get the email from Uber every couple of months reminding me it's an option.

And you can write off gas and maintenance when doing taxes.

Once a year, yes, when doing taxes. Not when you need the money for bills throughout the year though...

Purchasing health insurance yourself sounds mega, mega expensive. But I've been wrong before - you're right that I did not reaize they even offered it. So that's cool. But if it's like COBRA, then it's an arm and a leg

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TopKekBro posted...

haha this is very true, youre right.

This was also the case right before the .com bubble and right before the bush-induced recession.

things recover a little bit, be white pls comes back and once the recession hits again they go back to the outsource shit.

youre so right

They outsource for 10 years, they realize the response time is awful - the people communicate terribly - and that the SDLC and product are just horrendous. Then they come back onshore. It's how corporations operate. They say "I don't care, just save money" - then they implement said cost cutting - then they end up spending more because the cost cutting is giving shittier product - then they say "I don't care, just have them onsite here in the building" and things go well - then the next recession hits and they say "I don't care, just save money"

and it repeats.

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_Rinku_ posted...

The volatility is a real issue: one of my friends had their program basically evaporate out of the blue over a weekend. Their company worked with them (and everyone on that program from what I've heard) to move them to other programs within the company.

That was what happened to me on my last program. I was working as a subcontractor for a Veteran's Affairs development program and was hired with the understanding that, no matter what, we'd have a year's worth of work to look forward to.

However before I even got my first paycheck (because I had to work for a month before being paid due to having a twice-per-month pay structure instead of straight biweekly) we got notified that not only was the VA not re-upping their main agreement with the prime contractor but they were also pulling the supposed "sure thing" work that I was originally hired to work on. So what ended up happening is they only had enough work through the end of 2019 (and that is being VERY generous; I was just filling a seat at the building after the first two months of my employment). What's more as a subcontractor working for an outside entity, I couldn't even be re-placed on a different program because I worked for someone else entirely. My last day was Dec. 27 and I remained an employee of the subcontractor until the end of January before being let go from that as well.

However, thankfully, the program I'm being hired into coming up in October is already funded through the 2080s (which would put me in my 90s by the time it rolled off, let alone any of my working career) and that only assumes that everything as it is now is all that is going to happen. The program has already been going strong for over 70 years up to now so the government has been re-upping recurringly anyway. Either way, I see no forseeable issues if and when I get hired on fully.

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I'm scared, I finished my Masters in Political Science back in June. I managed to get a seasonal election job doing work with the league of conservation voters through another company, but once this job is over idk what I am going to do. I only make $15 an hour at this job but it's still enough to at least keep me alive lmao

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ImAMarvel posted...

Sheesh, I'm a cs major and I hope this shit changes once I graduate. I don't want to be fucked when I'm finally done.

Also, how fucked am I if I'm not white?

Not fucked at all if you have good phone presence and confidence to do whiteboarding, etc. You'll interview well and be fine

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ImAMarvel posted...

Sheesh, I'm a cs major and I hope this shit changes once I graduate. I don't want to be fucked when I'm finally done.

Also, how fucked am I if I'm not white?

If you're not white? Well I've only ever met white devs and engineers. So definitely fucked. Never once met any non white programmer...nope never happened.

If you're good at what you do, you won't have to worry about it.

ImAMarvel posted...

LikeImmolation posted...

Software Engineering went from "Hiring US citizens and educated on-shore white people only"

Sheesh, I'm a cs major and I hope this shit changes once I graduate. I don't want to be fucked when I'm finally done.

Also, how fucked am I if I'm not white?

Not sure what he's talking about at all regarding only hiring white people.
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emblem boy posted...

Not sure what he's talking about at all regarding only hiring white peop

I think he was saying the job market has moved from hiring white people to h1 visas

we outsource a lot of our dev (btw, Ukraine gets you great talent....India / Pakistan are hit and miss)

MOST programmers I've met aren't white...not that it really matters. Just code and code well. That's all that matters tbqh. If your shit works and you come up with good solutions / productivity increases, then yay

Typically, when you first graduate college and you don't have any work experience, some is better than none.

I only got my first programming gig after I had worked in data entry which I only really got after I had worked in fast food.

Basically, I had to work my way up from the bottom to where I am now.

It's unfortunate but the American dream is still alive, you just need a college degree at the bare minimum.

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Also, get a github. Put a real project on there. Make sure it has the following:

• unit tests
• documentation
• easy to build and/or install on the system

Have that and I can guarantee you'll get a job. Any candidate that has a GH project with tests is almost an insta-hire.

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Have you applied to health/pharmacy related companies? The place I work at has been hiring like crazy.

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LikeImmolation posted...

you have no heath insurance and pay your own gas and car maintenance.

No offense, but no.

Yeah and after I pay for gas, car maintenance, and health insurance I'm still making more money than I was at my old job. I also don't work overnights anymore nor have to deal with the wear and tear on my body from a manual labor job. I can destroy my car and get a new one, but this is the only body I will ever have.

Gig work certainly isn't a great long term solution, bit I'm willing to do it for a year or so until I can find a better job.

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Have you tried asking your father for an 11 million dollar loan to get you on your feet?
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Vermander posted...

Ive managed to keep my IT analyst position making 72k through this pandemic.

I'm making 95k this year from Costco.

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LikeImmolation posted...

Once a year, yes, when doing taxes. Not when you need the money for bills throughout the year though...

Purchasing health insurance yourself sounds mega, mega expensive. But I've been wrong before - you're right that I did not reaize they even offered it. So that's cool. But if it's like COBRA, then it's an arm and a leg

I just applied for Obamacare and it's like a bit under $350/month. That is one of their most expensive health insurance plans too. COBRA was going to be like $250/week lmfao. I've never once heard a good thing about COBRA.

Seriously, gig work isn't that bad once you figure out how to work your area. It has gotten easier and more profitable the more I do it. Again, it still has issues that make it at best a stop gap option, but you could do way worse.

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MutantJohn posted...

Also, get a github. Put a real project on there. Make sure it has the following:
* unit tests
* documentation
* easy to build and/or install on the system
Have that and I can guarantee you'll get a job. Any candidate that has a GH project with tests is almost an insta-hire.

what kind of project? What kind of tests?

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emblem boy posted...

Not sure what he's talking about at all regarding only hiring white people.

I'm talking about exactly what the fuck I said I'm talking about.

When the economy is good, corporations only want onshore developers with good skillsets and good communication. When the economy is bad, corporations don't give a fuck about their IT and it is ran by either offshore turnkey companies or onshore H1 firms.

These H1 firms bunk 5+ people in 1 bedroom apartments, hold their visas hostage and make them go out and work contract jobs for whatever rate.

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TommyG663513 posted...

I just applied for Obamacare and it's like a bit under $350/month. That is one of their most expensive health insurance plans too. COBRA was going to be like $250/week lmfao. I've never once heard a good thing about COBRA.

Seriously, gig work isn't that bad once you figure out how to work your area. It has gotten easier and more profitable the more I do it. Again, it still has issues that make it at best a stop gap option, but you could do way worse.

Yes, COBRA is like that most of the time. $250 week is over $1000 a month in health insurance. I mean that's just impossible for most Americans to afford. $12,000 a year is probably about 25% of the median annual income for an America.

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Apply to jobs in other countries. Go where the money is.

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Entry level software jobs are really competitive in desirable markets. I even have a top 50 MSCS and partial CS PhD, but ended up taking a web job at first after grad school, in Denver a very competitive market. I also had actual experience as well. Ended up in a much better spot eventually but it can suck.

Personal projects or more school is your best bet. I'm doing Georgia Tech's OMSA currently, it's ~10k. GT is ranked top 10 for CS, and has a similar MSCS option. I'm taking my first class, Bayesian Statistics, and it's pretty rigorous tbqh.

Also send out resumes across the country with the idea that you will need to move to work.

If you're targeting Amazon etc. Leetcode up if you want any chance.

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TC, I know that L3Harris has been hiring quite a bit recently. I recently saw a posting requesting for Electrical Engineers, but Computer/Software Engineers may also be available.

With defense being such a big thing right now, other defense companies like Northrop Grumman and Lockheed Martin may be interesting picks.

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Wow, reading this thread scares the hell out of me. I have a massive headache from trying to understand exactly what is going on.

This is what I understood, every 10 years roughly something catastrophic happens and a bunch of people get fucked. You have to be lucky and not get fucked, but if you do get fucked you have to make sure you have enough money to get by for 6 months to a year otherwise you end up even more fucked.

Dude, why even fucking bother with this shit? It's super stressful, unreliable, and unforgiving... To think there's people really killing themselves over crap like this. Stressing out. Bro, seriously this whole system is fucked up. And I'm only 30 years old, I can't begin to imagine being 40, 50, 60 trying to get by in this hell...

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lincoln002 posted...

Wow, reading this thread scares the hell out of me. I have a massive headache from trying to understand exactly what is going on.

This is what I understood, every 10 years roughly something catastrophic happens and a bunch of people get fucked. You have to be lucky and not get fucked, but if you do get fucked you have to make sure you have enough money to get by for 6 months to a year otherwise you end up even more fucked.

Dude, why even fucking bother with this shit? It's super stressful, unreliable, and unforgiving... To think there's people really killing themselves over crap like this. Stressing out. Bro, seriously this whole system is fucked up. And I'm only 30 years old, I can't begin to imagine being 40, 50, 60 trying to get by in this hell...

If it makes you feel better I am also 30 years old and everything terrifies me and there appears to be little hope for long term financial security.

Like I'm legit at the point where creating a Youtube channel that may take years to even become monetized seems like a great option. Like I've always wanted to make videos discussing the history of various roller coasters and amusement parks. Also videos that offer full tours and reviews of certain amusement parks. I figured I can cover county and state fairs too as well as zoos. These are all things that I absolutely love.

But the reality is that the odds are still pretty low....

Honestly though, the odds of me getting a pretty solid $50,000/year+ job with full benefits that is personally fulfilling sounds like an insane pipe dream as well. So I totally feel you on the sense of hopeless despair front.

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lincoln002 posted...

Wow, reading this thread scares the hell out of me. I have a massive headache from trying to understand exactly what is going on.

The economy is really bad - nearly 2008 levels of bad.

There, I stopped your headache.


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LikeImmolation posted...

emblem boy posted...

Not sure what he's talking about at all regarding only hiring white people.

I'm talking about exactly what the fuck I said I'm talking about.

When the economy is good, corporations only want onshore developers with good skillsets and good communication. When the economy is bad, corporations don't give a fuck about their IT and it is ran by either offshore turnkey companies or onshore H1 firms.

These H1 firms bunk 5+ people in 1 bedroom apartments, hold their visas hostage and make them go out and work contract jobs for whatever rate.

So you mean they look for Americans, not white people
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Sure, they look for "Americans".

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Oakland510_ posted...

You gotta send in your resume/job application then call or visit them introduce yourself and say you applied. Tell them something else too before leaving like your experience. Make yourself stand out of the crowd of hundreds or thousands that applied for the same job. Lotta idiots just send their resume without doing anything else and cry that no one want to hire them. Doing that is like employers picking out your needle in a haystack.

Thats terrible advice and they always hate when people do that
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YookaLaylee posted...

Thats terrible advice and they always hate when people do that

I've always gotten this impression too. Honestly, it seems like networking is the only real answer to how to make your job hunt successful.

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YookaLaylee posted...

Thats terrible advice and they always hate when people do that

It is halfway-terrible advice.

Yes, showing up in person and "introducing yourself" as someone who applied is a bad, bad idea.

But writing an email saying "thank you for interviewing me" or even bringing a card to the front desk and asking them to give it to the manager is a GOOD idea.

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emblem boy posted...

So you mean they look for Americans, not white people

not really no.

the must have good communication thing means cannot have a minority accent.

if you speak like Ivan Drago or Melania or like one of those Brits that Americans literally cant understand you still get the job. If you speak perfectly understandable English but your accent is foreign (read: minority) you will fail the good communication thing and hiring people will pretend you cant be understood.

many, MANY Americans out there have accents, because maybe they werent born here

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Well said, TopKek.

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YookaLaylee posted...

Thats terrible advice and they always hate when people do that

TommyG663513 posted...

I've always gotten this impression too. Honestly, it seems like networking is the only real answer to how to make your job hunt successful.

Enjoy unemployment then while they either randomly choose some people out of thousands of resumes or they choose friend or friend of a friend.

Oakland510_ posted...

Enjoy unemployment then while they either randomly choose some people out of thousands of resumes or they choose friend or friend of a friend.

You're kind of pointing out why your advice is bad.

Just wait until apartments start turning you down because you're still paying student loans.

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