Board 8 > Hearthstone Topic: Back to School Edition

(+) Yeah! (+)

Compilation of wrong predictions about scholomance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JIkGvKxbgE

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Oh, you tricked me into clicking on Hearthstone mathematics. I should have recognized the art in the thumbnail.

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Just lost 100-some points in battlegrounds to a game I didn't even get to play. The spinning wheel before the game wouldn't stop spinning, so after about 30 seconds I restarted the game. Figured I'd miss hero selection or worst case scenario turn one, but nope, didn't even bother trying to reconnect me. Wonderful. I'm doing a fantastic job tanking points on my own Hearthstone, I don't need your help.

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Mmm...I am growing somewhat tempted to craft Lord Barov. Just...keeps showing up in wild decklists.

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Either I'm turning into Kripp or the percentages on deck tracker are not accurate. I'm on the verge of some ulti-style rants with the amount of exact lethals I've been getting hit with off <6% odds.

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The percentage tracker in battlegrounds runs simulations to get odds (1000 simulations I think) but yeah, if a card isn't implemented right in the simulation it might give the wrong percentage. And even if everything is implemented right, the simulation might just RNG into a skewed percentage. And of course when you're simulating 10k RNG rolls in about 1 second, questions do need to be asked about what random number generator you are using.

Anyway, I've been watching some streamers play the heroic tavern brawl, but man, I'm gettting sick of watching people play mage.

Also, my urge to craft Lord Barov has largely subsided, but I am seriously considering crafting Lorekeeper Polkelt; just seems to be used in a ton of decks. (Including a deck I swapped to for my ladder climb when aggro DH finally stopped working).

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I will nominate that the card with dubious implementation, then, is Soul Juggler, because several of the games involved it.

Polkelt seems like it's a great card if you enjoy combo decks and similar shenanigans. The cards is just built for that.

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Honestly Polkelt is probably gonna be around for a while, its really good for Aggro decks looking for their burn/finishers (Face Hunter, for example) and theres a lot of combo potential.

Barov is also good but mainly for like, control warrior (but I also think Control Paladin could use it, it can function like a cheap equality.)

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UltimaterializerX posted...

At the moment it's being run in hyper aggro lists and highlander.

But also combo lists like Tortollan mage.

And midrange lists like Galakrond Rogue.

It's kinda just in a lot of archetypes. Not in every deck, but in decks where the high cost cards are the best topdecks.

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I mean, the mistake was calling this an "event" and having a hype trailer for it.

If this was just three normal weeks without a named event, we'd be like "yeah, this was a pretty cool 3 weeks".

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Hopefully Hallows End is cool

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Patch 18.4

https://playhearthstone.com/en-us/news/23523062

Elementals added to battlegrounds (a bunch of new cards and heroes).

Tortollan Pilgrim

• Old: Battlecry: Discover a copy of a spell in your deck and cast it with random targets. New: Battlecry: Discover a spell in your deck and cast it with random targets.

Guardian Animals

• Old: [Cost 7] New: [Cost 8]

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Wait they didnt nerf Jandice

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LiquidOshawott posted...

Wait they didnt nerf Jandice

o_O I didn't even notice that.

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To be fair they didn't actually make any balance changes for Battlegrounds.

I haven't played in about 2 weeks now and I might wait to see how the changes feel before trying to play again. The last battlegrounds meta left such a sour taste that I basically swore off the whole game. Losing every other game on turn 10 to a guy with a crazy high roll was too frustrating.

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We're talking about battlegrounds, not constructed

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I'm going to assume they're taking the stance with battlegrounds they used to take with constructed where they'd just hope the new cards make everything kind of work out and they don't have to touch anything.

How would everyone here fix Jandice? The obvious solution seems to be making the hero power cost X instead of 0, but how much? Is 1, or even 2, enough to change anything?

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Elementals are...interesting. I was simultaneously right and wrong about pirates -- I thought they would be bad, but I thought their stats would suck, which wasn't at all the problem. It was that they only have stats. So when I say that I think elementals look much stronger at a glance, you should take that with a grain of salt. However, they're either going to be bonkers overpowered or they're going to be extremely late-game focused. I do suspect they may have some of the same problems as pirates though, in that they have scant else besides giant piles of stats. One minion has divine shield, and that's really about it. No poison, no deathrattle longevity, only one faux cleave. So long-term, I have a feeling they'll be relegated to a similar role as pirates, especially now that there's a new poisonous minion.

And, ironically, it's that poisonous minion -- which is not an elemental -- which I suspect will be the most pivotal in the update. It still doesn't compete with Amalgadon, but it's a cheaper, earlier Maexxna alternative.

I'm a little sad by the timing of the rating changes. I was *this* close to 8k, and then I lost a ton of rating, and I was hoping to get back to that. Now it'll probably never happen unless I have an amazing grind before the patch.

My take on the new heroes:

• Ragnaros - strong effect, but it won't kick in until about turn 9 unless you face a bunch of tokens. Until then you have no hero power. So I think of it as being a lot like Bigglesworth. I suspect Rag will get played, and might even be really strong, but it will require having a good neutral start, and then having minions that you want on the outside that benefit from the buffs. That's trickier than it sounds.
• Chenvalla - bad. Just plain bad. I know the point of elementals is to cycle, and therefore you will try to buy a lot of them, but there's no guarantee you'll get them in the tavern, and buying a minion just to sell it again is a losing strategy in the early game. I think you'll maybe trigger this effect twice before you get to tavern tier 5, which puts it on par with Bartendotron. And after you hit tier 5, making the progress toward 6 cheaper is a fringe benefit.
• Rakanishu - bad. Such a bait hero. But you have to pay 2 to buff the minion and then 3 to buy it, so you're paying 5 for the minion in question. That's not something you likely want to commit to in the early or mid-game, with the exception of turn 3. So you'll get one minion at that point with +2/+2 (which is not as good as Kael'thas) and then you probably won't use the hero power again, because it targets randomly and you'll probably trigger the effect on something you don't want it on 60% of the time. Maybe 80%. Sure, it's fantastic if you can hit on the one you want, as I would love to turn a hydra into a foe reaper for 2 extra gold, but you're going to whiff so often as to make this meaningless. And by the time you hit tavern tier 6, you're more interested in specific minions than piles o' stats.
• Al'akir - decent. This is a better Illidan. Unlike attacking first, having divine shield is really nice. The taunt can be good or it can be a liability, especially when you're guaranteed to have two taunts, and at opposite ends of the board. It's basically impossible to play around cleave. Still, Al'akir probably will win more than lose in the early and mid-game, and putting divine shield on two minions for free is a fantastic bonus. (And windfury, but anything that would like to attack twice probably dies on the first hit anyway.) I'm going to predict upper tier 3.

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Camden posted...

I'm going to assume they're taking the stance with battlegrounds they used to take with constructed where they'd just hope the new cards make everything kind of work out and they don't have to touch anything.

How would everyone here fix Jandice? The obvious solution seems to be making the hero power cost X instead of 0, but how much? Is 1, or even 2, enough to change anything?

1 would make a huge difference. It wouldn't kill pogo shenanigans, but it would prevent some of the early swapping she does in the early game. Not being able to buy tokens, and then swap them both on successive turns for decent cards until she has a battlecry worth cycling would be a big step up in hitting her for early damage. She often escapes into the late game with little-to-no damage.

Another bizarre take could be to make it so she targets a minion, triggers its battlecry, and then sells it. I'm pretty sure that ruins the majority of uses for her, though.

Minions not retaining their buffs is the most obvious solution, but it does almost remove some of the interesting dynamics, so I'm not sure if I favor that, even if it would make pogos a lot weaker.

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Jandice fix: 1 mana put a minion back into Bob's tavern (you don't swap or get a free minion)

Or maybe you could even keep it 0 cost if it doesn't give you a free minion but I think it's still good at 1 mana

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Jandice fix: make her hero power not work on pogos.

Top 20% (7,600+)
* Jandice has a 3.67 average finish.
* Jandice with a pogo centered comp has a 2.04 average finish - 41.2% of jandice comps.
* Jandice with a non pogo centered comp has an average placement of 4.81

Source:

https://old.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/ium1lc/battlegrounds_hero_rankings_patch_182/g5ndr99/?context=3

I mean, you can try to do it in a more elegant way. Make minions in general not keep enchantments when they go back to the shop. But basically mess up the pogo interaction and the data suggests she becomes not that hard to beat.

I actually expect her winrate to drop a little with this new patch, just because pogos will be gone from more lobbies (I assume with elementals added we're going to be missing 2 tribes per lobby).

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I think additional poison is meant to counter the pogo strategy but in practice it might not be as effective with divine shields and ghoul

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Also yes, everyone assumed it but confirmed 5 tribes per lobby:

https://twitter.com/Songbird_HS/status/1310638076461375488

2/7 tribes excluded every lobby.

And sounds like they have some balance changes planned to heroes (probably Jandice I assume) but want to get some data from the new elemental metagame before swinging the nerf hammer.

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After finally getting enough 60g quests in a row I was able to play on ladder last night and this morning, pretty much for the first time this month, without having to accidentally complete unnecessary 50g quests. Yes, I actually avoid ladder if it means 10 less gold, I am that cheap.

After that, I thought I'd play battlegrounds before the reset. Figured it didn't matter if I continued to play like trash and completed the <6000 tank dream. Came in 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 1st instead because of course. I also caused someone to rage quit along the way with some supreme rng bullshit.

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3 3 3 since the reset

And I haven't seen any of the new heroes from the past two releases offered.

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In case you somehow missed this, the patch is today. Log in before you intend to log in.

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UltimaterializerX posted...

https://hsreplay.net/replay/jDETACDsPiigVhrsvpJzmg

Why does an aggro class get infinite card draw, lifesteal, tempo, and disruption to the point where 13 nerfs changed nothing whatsoever? Like I get that Blizzard is laughably incompetent, but even they have to see how idiotic this design is.

Every single moron involved in designing Demon Hunter needs to be fired. This is just laughable, indefensible garbage.

I mean...aggro DH is like...tier 3 according to Vicious Syndicate. (The more midrangey soul DH is higher tier).

Don't get me wrong, I've been playing a decent amount of aggro DH this season, I don't think it's unplayable, but I also switched off of it recently cause I found I was losing more than I was winning while trying to climb at diamond.

As for that game....

You were playing an aggro deck yourself and on the coin--going first is still a large advantage in this game, especially in a pseudo-mirror match, so being on the coin already makes this rough.

Turn 1 you did coin Wand Thief shadow step Wand Thief floating one mana. Obviously I know that wand thief needs to be comboed, and also obviously I'm no rogue expert, but I'm...skeptical about that opening; coining just to float 1 mana sounds pretty bad, and also strands your Evil Miscreant in your hand, which could have been coined turn 2.

Turn 2 was played fine

Turn 3 you Ice Barrier'd and passed. This feels pretty weak--when you are both board centric decks, taking turn 3 off not making any attempt to put something on the board or remove something from the board just means he's going to get ahead of you. Like...in an aggro mirror, would I use Healing Touch? Sure...when it looks like my opponent has lethal, but not on turn 3 when I'm trying to get board position.

Turn 4 you were mana burned (only had 2 mana), daggered up and passed. Not many options with 2 mana, of course. Still...I would be tempted to play Spymistress here, which would let you kill the Bonechewer Brawler next turn. I can maybe see keeping the spymistress for Eviscerate combo...but on turn 5 you could use Greyhart Sage to activate the evis combo if needed.

Turn 5 play looked fine to me

Turn 6 play looked fine to me

The one thing about this replay that could be flagged as a balance issue is that you felt compelled to use 2 mana removal (frostbolt) on a 1 mana minion (Battlefiend). It was the correct play, but when it's right to lose 1 mana of tempo to remove a threat, that can be a sign of imbalance. (I remember when it was correct to use 2 mana Ironbeak Owl on 1 mana Undertaker? A play that always put the owl player behind, and was almost always correct; those were dark days).

But Frostbolt isn't actually a card you put into your deck these days. Backstab is a card you probably put into your deck, and Backstab does great against battlefiend.

So..from that game, maybe there's a small case to nerf battlefiend, but mostly I think there's a lot of other factors going on in that game. Going second with a really clunky draw from you against a double battlefiend opener. Very playing-it-slow value-oriented thinking from you which is probably right in some matchups, but this was an aggro vs aggro mirror where board control is super good.

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FFDragon posted...

3 3 3 since the reset

And I haven't seen any of the new heroes from the past two releases offered.

I did 6, 3.5, and 4 with flurgs, Lich King, and Jandice with no pogo

I thought I was doing well with the other two too but I fought some highrolly elemental dudes

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In dual class arena, if you take Paladin as your hero power it's probably not a good idea to draft multiple copies of Raise Dead. Also, probably not a great idea to play your spell power minions before Raise Dead either.

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I misread Al'akir. With it only being the left-minion, this hero is garbage. Left-minion is way too exposed, not enough general upside.

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I think it's pretty good at winning early fights ala lich king, and getting a divine shield on a poison minion is generally excellent, or giving a bird windfury if you go first

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Yeah Al'akir automatically wins pretty much every fight for the first 5/6 rounds and then his hero power isn't completely useless in the late game so I think he's fine.

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Bird windfury isn't that great if it also has taunt. I mean, sure, some of the time it attacks twice, but often it just gets the DS pinged off first and dies in one hit anyway. I just played him with the elemental that does overkill splash damage and it went okay, other than the rest of my board sucked, but it wasn't enough. Won the first round (against Lich King,) but it was pretty steadily downhill from there.

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Hitting the dream on day 1.


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UltimaterializerX posted...

Why the fuck cant I choose with Deadly Shot?

Because you are getting a two Mana discount on assasinate.

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FFDragon posted...

Because you are getting a two Mana discount on assasinate.

I mean, I will say that in magic the gathering this kind of effect would be "target player sacrifices a creature". That's not as easy to do in Hearthstone, but you could maybe do something like "at the start of your opponent's next turn, they choose which creature gets destroyed".

That said, one of their goals with hearthstone is to keep it as simple to play and use as possible, and random instead of opponent chooses does speed up the game.

I also think they keep it on the weaker end just to make it so that it's not super emphasized. Like...Shadow Word Death costs 2 mana, and deadly shot costs 3 mana. They could probably make DS cost 2 mana without breaking balance, but it would really emphasize the randomness.

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Oh man, just got rolled by a hobgoblin deck.

They played Hobgoblin and a couple of wisps and penguins. I used dagger and SI:7 agent to kill hobgoblin, thinking "ok, 3/3s trade and then I just win right?" Raise Dead; RIP me.

As someone who crafted two hobgoblins back in the day, I am...intrigued. Probably a deck that's overly reliant on actually drawing hobgoblin, but there's a lot of pretty nice 1 attack minions in the latest set (Tour Guide and Animated Broomstick for example).

I also had a friend who nearly got to legend playing Hobgoblin Priest inspired by my antics (using Hobgoblin to give Northshire Cleric +2/+2)--was a deck with much more lategame than the warlock hobgoblin decks I made. But...Raise Dead is a Warlock/Priest dual class card so....

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So...after all the reddit whining, they are now recording more voicelines for the scholar jaina skin:

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/hearthstone/t/update-on-scholar-jaina-and-horseman-uther/42044

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