Current Events > I'm not convinced Melee is more fun than Ultimate

(+) Yeah! (+)

Ultimate has so much content to play with

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same, not to mention, you know... characters

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Idk I'd rather eat an amazing sandwich than a whole bag of stale chips.

The sandwich being Melee ofc

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Master Kazuya posted...

Idk I'd rather eat an amazing sandwich than a whole bag of stale chips.

Ultimate doesn't feel stale at all to me. It's biggest issues are
1) Shield is probably still too strong
2) My favorite characters are lower tier :O

But it's really well balanced for how many characters it has and theres a ton of high def stages to play on.

The main thing I miss from Melee is laser approaches as Falco

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Melee came out at the peak of split screen gaming. That's the Smash game a lot of people will view fondly

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Actually the biggest problem with Ultimate is my Switch Online expired >:(

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The buffer system ruins Ultimate. Input lag is a problem and the online is near unplayable unless you like endless frustration.

I like Ultimate but I cant stomach it anymore. Quarantine has killed this game for me.

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I've never had an issue with the buffer. A friend has complained about input priority or something but I'm pretty conservative with my button presses.

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i really have no idea what they were thinking with the buffer. the whole game feels sloppy and less precise for it.

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Doe posted...

Ultimate doesn't feel stale at all to me.

Huh, you must be playing Melee also then.

Ultimate has

1) a shit ton of boring characters to fight against (tell me it's fun to fight against Young Link, Duck Hunt, Palutena, Ness, Villager, Robin, etc)
1a) there is no powershielding so you have no defense against projectile spam coming your way. Parrying does nothing to projectiles
2) a lot of characters who play really similarly, there are like 5 Marths, not even just 5 FE characters, why do Ridley, K rool, and Incineroar have the same dsmash, why does every character have down b counter
3) a buffer system that inputs your NEXT move before your CURRENT one is done
4) a ton of characters that can almost quite literally recover from anywhere on screen which defeats the purpose of solid offstage play
5) maybe the worst online for a modern FG (and ironically, Melee recently got the perhaps best netcode for any FG period)
6) we're talking like, it's "sick" in ultimate if you get a 2 hit combo. Did you know a 2 hit combo is literally the minimum a combo can possibly be? most the game is just hitting someone away and waiting for them to slowly fall back to the stage and reading how they're going to airdodge. Just hit, repeat, hit repeat. You can't follow your advantage like you can in Melee
7) movement is just objectively worse. You just have less control of your character

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^You say Ultimate has a lot of characters that feel the same when Melee added a lot of straight-up clones that Ultimate tried to fix, lol.

But honestly, with an 80-character roster I'd expect some of them to share some moves. I'm surprised there's very little characters that are just outright palette swaps. Most fighting games that have that many characters have literal clone characters by the dozens.
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BakonBitz posted...

^You say Ultimate has a lot of characters that feel the same when Melee added a lot of straight-up clones that Ultimate tried to fix, lol.

There were clones, but at least they added some gimmicks to them like being slower but stronger versions of their clones. Ultimate has literally echo fighters that only have some hit box differences, otherwise exact same movesets and everything.

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BakonBitz posted...

^You say Ultimate has a lot of characters that feel the same when Melee added a lot of straight-up clones that Ultimate tried to fix, lol.

Hmm, rushed 2nd game series release vs 5th game entry 18 years later. I wonder which I should be holding to a slightly higher standard. Why does Ult have chars like Dark Samus, Daisy, Richter who are the same save for literally a few pixels on some moves. Same speed, weight, damage, hitbox, jumps, move properties, knockback amount, knockback angles. Even less difference than the Shoto clones of SF or the MK Ninjas. I'm not even talking about the sorta similar chars in vein of Melee clones like Chrom, Dark Pit, Pichu, or Dr Mario. Like straight up palette swaps.

The thing that makes Melee's clones not as bad is that the game itself feels a lot better to play. I don't care if you give me 80 chars if they're all neutered. I'd much rather have 10 characters that are full of depth. Why did they remove Bowser and Snake's unique DSmashes from the previous games to give them the same thing?

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Okay, alright. But I'm just of the mindset that Ultimate's the best Smash game we've had since Melee. I still find Ultimate very fun to play and I love the character choices. But in terms of gameplay, what we got after Melee for two games was...not ideal. Brawl promoted extremely campy defensive playstyles, and Smash 4 tried to sterilize the experience with very little tech.

At least Ultimate is faster, and allows better "combo" potential than Smash 4 (to an extent). The only severely egregious thing is the online, it just sucks.
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Even cutting out semi clones there is a massively greater number of characters to play in Ultimate. Complaining about Dark Pit is a massive strawman in this instance. Peach, Pikachu, Snake, Wario, Inkling, Luigi, ZSS, Squirtle/Ivy/Char, Palutena, G&W, Pac-Man, Mario, Lucina, Wolf, Fox, Joker, are all characters you could win a tournament with. The amount of extremely viable characters in Ultimate approaches the entire roster size of Melee and utterly dwarfs the typical Melee tourney toppers.

Characters that can come back from the corner, especially without a jump, are in the minority, and most are balanced by being pretty easy to KO outright. And let's not get into Melee Jigglypuff's ledge abilities, or Fox and Marth's gigantic recoveries... In reality, the main thing to argue about here is ledge hogging. Ultimate's trumping does lead to more ledgeguard survivals in the aggregate, but it's also a much more interesting ledge battle than grabbing the stage or spamming Marth's dtilt.

Master Kazuya posted...

there is no powershielding so you have no defense against projectile spam coming your way. Parrying does nothing to projectiles

I seriously don't mind this. Projectiles should mean something and actually control space and approaches rather than being worthless outside of autocancels.

Master Kazuya posted...

we're talking like, it's "sick" in ultimate if you get a 2 hit combo. Did you know a 2 hit combo is literally the minimum a combo can possibly be

Have you watched people play the game competitively? This is mythical Bill Nintendo meme shit. Ultimate IS a lot more neutral heavy, but nobody yells sick about 2 hit combos. Have you seen ESAM play?

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It's more neutral heavy because half the game is people floating around in the air waiting to land and hit each other once lol. That's like saying airplanes have more airtime than pro skateboard tricks. Duh, by design it does. Brawl is even more neutral heavy than Ultimate in the way you are defining it. Congrats to ESAM and Samsora for doing the same combo, it's cool that they can do that sequence on everyone in the same context. I'm not calling them bad, I'm calling the game stale.

You have no idea what you're talking about if you think Marth's recovery is gigantic in Melee, like seriously noooo idea. Even Fox in Melee doesn't have half the recovery Fox has in Ultimate. Mvc2 only had 8 viable characters out of 50+ and that game lasted a decade and only got taken off the circuit because a viable sequel came out. If you want pure balance, go play a game where you literally flip a coin. That's balanced but not fun. Street Fighter 1 has 2 characters that are literally the same except for colors. Perfectly balanced. Ledge play is so silly in Ult. One char gets hit only to recover from blast zone and snap to the ledge, player on stage misses their 2 frame, rinse repeat. I can't believe that top level play involves actually sitting there charging smash attacks HOPING to ledge trap them. That's something low level players do too.

What the fuck is the point of this topic if you are going to plug your ears anyway. You literally enjoy being camped out by characters for 8 minutes, there's absolutely nothing anyone can say to you.

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Ultimate is better, greater, and way more fantastic than Melee, but when Melee first came out, it was the second coming.

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the melee vs new smash argument really shows what people value in a game. people who like melee enjoy good mechanics and freedom of movement whereas people who are into the newer games just want more characters and stages while not giving a single fuck what the games actually play like.

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Dark_SilverX posted...

Ultimate is better, greater, and way more fantastic than Melee, but when Melee first came out, it was the second coming.

This. I'm not a fighting game aficionado and don't give a shit about whatever a buffer is, so to me Ultimate is just so much more fun than melee was. Back then though I was glued to it

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Melee fanboys are just overhyping "muh competitiveness"
as a full game Ultimate is better.

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Frogles posted...

the melee vs new smash argument really shows what people value in a game. people who like melee enjoy good mechanics and freedom of movement whereas people who are into the newer games just want more characters and stages while not giving a single fuck what the games actually play like.

If that were true I would've thought Brawl and Smash 4 were better than Melee.
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Tbh melee is just too fast for me. I have slow reaction times, so it's a lot easier to to keep track of what's going on in Ultimate.

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