Current Events > Seriously though what's the argument for being against voting independent

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The sentiment is anti-democracy and tbqh the system is setup to be a foregone conclusion to whomever the electors are going to cast their ballots for anyway. Giving independents/third parties/what have you more power only strengthens America. A vote for some independent isn't a vote for Trump or a vote for Biden, it's a vote against both and for whoever you put on the ballot.

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It is but it's like trying to swim up a waterfall. By voting independent it's like you're okay with saying "I'm fine not getting my way".

Now I'm not saying it HAS to be like this but at the same time, the reality states that the two major parties control too much voter influence and by voting third-party, you're voting for change that won't ever come in the present landscape.

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Its just a stupid choice in regards to getting what change you want out of the country

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Solid Sonic posted...

It is but it's like trying to swim up a waterfall. By voting independent it's like you're okay with saying "I'm fine not getting my way".

This is how any meaningful progress in any direction is ever accomplished.

Solid Sonic posted...

Now I'm not saying it HAS to be like this but at the same time, the reality states that the two major parties control too much voter influence and by voting third-party, you're voting for change that won't ever come in the present landscape.

Well, we have libertarians on tickets now so that's not necessarily true.

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If you want a third party to thrive in this country, you in particular (yes you) are going to need to do a LOT more work than just voting for it.

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Americas entire culture runs on Teams. Independent isnt a team.

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Bananana posted...

Its just a stupid choice in regards to getting what change you want out of the country

So I guess we should just form a militia and overthrow the government?

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Nobody actually cares about you throwing your vote away or not.

They care that you were going to vote for their party before you did it.

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Right now, there is a temporary argument that we are in some pretty big danger this election specifically, and that we need to just accept the system as it is right now and, etc. And that as such you shouldn't throw a vote to something else when we are really in a "lesser of two evils" situation here that we must deal with and put all our weight behind.

NORMALLY however, its just that... well, the system we have is bad for more than two parties. Electoral college, and various other aspects that work best for a 2 party system make it all but impossible to get an independent as president. And that as such, you are "throwing your vote away" by doing so. Naturally, this is just rhetoric by whichever of the two big sides you are closer to (or their supporters at least) doesn't like that you aren't voting for them instead.

For non-presidents, there is at least more "reason" to vote independent. But the bipartisan nature of our mindsets make that usually a difficult thing to do.

Also note: This post is assuming that one of the two big parties doesn't completely fall apart into at least two major factions before next fall or something (which... may actually be at least possible). If this were to happen, then the more center-orientated faction may well join up with some independents or something.
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But yeah, short of some major redesigns being put into place, I don't see there being much room for third parties in the systems' design.
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Sephiroth C Ryu posted...

Right now, there is a temporary argument that we are in some pretty big danger this election specifically, and that we need to just accept the system as it is right now and, etc. And that as such you shouldn't throw a vote to something else when we are really in a "lesser of two evils" situation here that we must deal with and put all our weight behind.

Well I challenge this notion and argue that there is no time like the present.

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It's ineffective, but that is because voting by itself is ineffective. Of course you need to get involved in movements if you want to affect change. That rarely involves third parties because third parties rarely have power, making them poor organizing or advocacy targets

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Balrog0 posted...

It's ineffective, but that is because voting by itself is ineffective. Of course you need to get involved in movements if you want to affect change. That rarely involves third parties because third parties rarely have power, making them poor organizing or advocacy targets

And again by this token why even bother voting at all matters

Ergo might as well vote for someone I care about.

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P4wn4g3 posted...

And again by this token why even bother voting at all matters

Y
es, if the extent of your involvement is solely voting, I agree you might as well not vote.

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How are independent movements, aside from the likes of the National Socialists, effective to be involved with any more than voting for an independent is?

Special exception for nazis and white supremacists thanks to our history.

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P4wn4g3 posted...

Well I challenge this notion and argue that there is no time like the present.

I respond to your notion by basically saying "I fully support it if you were originally going to/would otherwise vote for <candidate I absolutely don't want to win here>." This is semi-sarcasm, semi-not.

Its the sad state state of affairs though. The two main sides, especially those further on their side of the "spectrum," effectively view each other as enemies. Like, actual enemies, to a point where they would be more hostile to each other than some actual hostile nations. North Korea is a good example. I'm sure pretty much everyone considers them to be at least a hostile nation, even if not an enemy, but people just tend to mentally leave them alone because they don't seem to really be able to do anything.

The USA is a democratic republic. No, not the party names, the words. democratically elected officials to represent. Said officials act in unison in a government which itself has democratic aspects via the house/senate voting on stuff, and republic aspects via the president. The thing about a democratic republic though, is that its greatest enemy is the unwillingness to compromise. Compromise is something that is REQUIRED to function. Sure, some ability to block opposition isn't bad as it is another form of check and balance, but it is also perhaps the greatest weakness should such a system go into an almost unstoppable bipartisan setup.

The system as a whole needs to be re-kerjiggered in a way that promotes 3+ parties to exist, but several major things would need to be simultaneously addressed.
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My followup here would be that since defeatist is the route we are taking with American politics there is absolutely no point in caring about who is representing what these days, other than to be outraged of course, because the end takeaway will be that the political system needs to be burned down and reset OR we are living comfortably enough and while pretty much every other thing is an outrage, we can carve out a living. And no individual dictates these options, it's a majority that does.

So yeah. Anybody want to disrupt my fatalism here?

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P4wn4g3 posted...

How are independent movements, aside from the likes of the National Socialists, effective to be involved with any more than voting for an independent is?

Special exception for nazis and white supremacists thanks to our history.

What... I mean like you have the human rights campaign that works on gay marriage and now we have gay marriage

You have the green party running ralph Nader and Jill Stein and now we have...

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Balrog0 posted...

What... I mean like you have the human rights campaign that works on gay marriage and now we have gay marriage

You have the green party running ralph Nader and Jill Stein and now we have...

So your stance is to get very granular about what you think we need in America and be a proponent of that

So as an example I'm for net neutrality, but ultimately that's up to the senate to do Jack shit about since the president or hell anyone in the FCC can strip it at a whim. And I can't make the senate do anything. So I'm still not seeing how my contribution to this cause accomplishes anything. I'm not interested in pretty words, I'm interested in results. But you can't just undo all the legislation up to this point really, without a war anyway, can you?

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P4wn4g3 posted...

So your stance is to get very granular about what you think we need in America and be a proponent of that

Not necessarily... But that's one way to do it, it's just an example.

P4wn4g3 posted...

So as an example I'm for net neutrality, but ultimately that's up to the senate to do Jack shit about since the president or hell anyone in the FCC can strip it at a whim. And I can't make the senate do anything. So I'm still not seeing how my contribution to this cause accomplishes anything. I'm not interested in pretty words, I'm interested in results. But you can't just undo all the legislation up to this point really, without a war anyway, can you?

Well if you did more than think about it at home, like if you went out and talked to other people interested in that issue, you would probably learn what they're doing and you guys would talk about it and new ideas would emerge as you engaged new people

I don't get that comment about pretty words, I'm talking about the exact opposite of that, organizing and campaigning is a lot of hard and boring work without any necessary payoffs.

I'm not saying you have to do any of that, that's your call, but that's what might actually do something vs voting which is rather meaningless by itself. Jmo

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P4wn4g3 posted...

Ergo might as well vote for someone I care about.

I don't think most people in this country see voting as being performative like you do. If you believe that your objective in voting is to "maximize good" or something, then it's obvious why a third party vote is usually bad.


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Balrog0 posted...

I don't get that comment about pretty words, I'm talking about the exact opposite of that, organizing and campaigning is a lot of hard and boring work without any necessary payoffs.

The pretty words are the lack of payoffs you mention. It's not a critique to the people campaigning for certain rights.

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Cuz you should only vote for the guy I want elected.

P4wn4g3 posted...

The pretty words are the lack of payoffs you mention.

I mean nothing is guaranteed to work bro, if it were easy we'd have fixed it all by now

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A vote for independent is a vote for Trump

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voting independent in a race where it's viable is fine. doing it in the presidential race is a complete waste of time.

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