Current Events > I just saw Rocky 2. That was... something. *spoilers*

(+) Yeah! (+)

I saw Rocky 1 for the first time about a week ago, and tonight was Rocky 2. I seem to remember Rocky 2 having a reputation as one of the best sequels ever made.

Honestly, I didn't see it.

The fighting was fine. A bit samey from Rocky 1, but arguably less electric. The training montage was, as always, on point - you can't say that Rocky doesn't have great training montages. I thought that Rocky's struggle to provide for his family made for a good storyline, and I liked seeing Cuff, Link and Bupkis. I liked Paulie more in this movie, I guess since times are a little better he's less of a piece of shit - even though he's still a fucking jerk-off at one part of the movie.

Here's what I didn't like.

Rocky isn't the brightest bulb, and Rocky 1 illustrated that fairly well. But he's compassionate, he loves his girlfriend, and while he's definitely very offbeat and rough around the edges, he's wise to his surroundings. While it hasn't aged well, you see all that in the scene where he's walking a neighbourhood girl home and telling her that she might develop a reputation, so she should look out for herself.

While that amount of fame would get to anyone, he goes from 0 to 100 once he's out of the hospital. Remember that tender moment in Rocky 1 where the broadcasters make a bunch of bold-faced jokes about him and his heritage, right to his face, and as he's leaving Adrian's place he admits that their treatment really hurt him? That was one of my favorite scenes - it comes at a point in the story where Rocky and Adrian really understand each other and gel, after a lot of incredibly awkward build-up to their relationship, and it's a crack in Rocky's good-natured "ay, no problem" sort of attitude where he lets things roll off his back. He's not smart, he's not photogenic, and he knows that. He cares enough about Adrian to let her in on that.

In Rocky 2, he only gets that emotional moment after Adrian nearly miscarries and goes into a coma. It's overwrought as shit.

Yeah, he took a beating in Rocky 1. We know that head trauma affects brain function. But the level at which Rocky operates in Rocky 2 is just ridiculous. He already feels like a cartoon character, and not even like a badass one - like that asshole who spends an entire episode doing something mind-meltingly stupid before learning a very obvious lesson. I dunno, it just feels like he regressed since Rocky 1. Of course, Gazzo's driver in Rocky 1 did say "take your girlfriend to the zoo, [mentally handicapped people] love the zoo" - and one of the first things Rocky says in this movie after getting out of the hospital is that he loves the zoo.

But the worst casualty here is Adrian. In the first movie, she was my favorite character - she had so much depth and growth, from being a shy, nebbish person who's constantly harassed by her scumbag brother to gaining enough confidence to grab him by the shirt and scream in his face for how useless he's made her feel. The end of that movie felt kind of limp, like her acting was really wooden and there was no oomph behind that "I love you" - she felt like a cardboard cutout. I thought Rocky 1 had an ideologically sound ending, but in practice it really needed work.

Adrian in Rocky 2 is like that cardboard cutout version of her from the end of Rocky 1, for an entire movie. There's nuance to both her and Rocky when the money starts running out and Rocky can't find a job, but it's like the majority of her role in this movie is to play out a bunch of soap opera cliches.

She gets pregnant at the height of the good times, and when Rocky can't find a job she goes back to work at the pet store. She goes into labor early due to overworking - and stress from Paulie yelling at her for "breaking Rocky", i.e. disapproving of his training because he told her he'd stop fighting, and out of concern for his health after his right eye is severely damaged and affects his vision. Then she goes into a coma, during which Rocky is a dutiful and repentant husband to her, and when she wakes up she approves of Rocky fighting again, like it's his reward for being a good husband while she was in a coma.

There's barely anything I like about Adrian from Rocky 1 left. She's just a slightly more assertive doormat, except it's to Rocky now. At the very least, he doesn't show outward discontent towards her like Paulie does - he very clearly loves her and cares about her opinion on the matter, even if he doesn't say it - he just let's it eat him up inside. But for a majority of the movie, her only role is to enable Rocky's stupidity, serve as a scapegoat for his poor training due to her guilting him, and then serve as an enabler all over again - after she's come out of a coma, after going into premature labor, after Paulie yells at her because Rocky isn't training properly. Again - it's a regression.

Paulie is decent most of the time, except when he's the worst fucking character in the movie. Legit, him yelling at his pregnant, overworked sister about making Rocky feel bad is the worst scene in this movie. He wasn't even doing it to like bait Rocky to follow him and get his fire back, to bring tensions to a head and get Rocky and Adrian talking - no, he goes over and yells at his sister for impeding Rocky's training. Paulie is the worst fucking character in these movies so far, and that includes the main antagonist Apollo Creed and the mafioso who Rocky collects debts for - the actual mob is more likeable than Paulie. I think the only character I enjoyed consistently was Mickey, and maybe Apollo. But even Apollo Creed had a scene in this movie where he neglects his family and yells at his wife. Like Christ, there's being a short-sighted, petty gloryhound, and there's throwing a tantrum in front of your wife. Christ.

When the movie gets sporty again, it's fine. We've got Rocky chasing chickens to improve his speed, we've got another excellent training montage, and while maybe a step down from Rocky 1, the fight is pretty decent too. I especially liked the POV shots from Rocky's perspective as he gets dazed in the ring, and the slow motion shots of Rocky copping punches holds the fuck up. I also thought that the hospital scene at the start was really good. The issue is that for a lot of the movie, Rocky loses that relatable, offbeat charm - he's a moron, who's painted so by the movie at every turn, whose storyline culminates in a fucking coma story arc. At which point he can fight again.

It's a less cohesive movie than Rocky 1. I didn't like it as much.

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Paulie is awful. Especially in rocky 3

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DD Divine posted...

Paulie is awful. Especially in rocky 3

Christ, don't tell me that. I already hated him from bumming off of Rocky in 1 and taking belts of scotch at work, and while I think he had a lot more rapport with Rocky in this movie, that one scene with Adrian just threw him back into the toilet, all over again. He's gotta improve - don't tell me if he does or not, I'm watching half of these movies blind and I want it to be a surprise. But yeah, fuck Paulie.

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The first one is based on a true story, the rest is a cash grab

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MrMallard posted...

I dunno, it just feels like he regressed since Rocky 1

that's the point. he sat on his laurels. and that's why he gets killed by Clubber Lang in Rocky 3.

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Rocky 2 = We need to give Rocky 1 the proper Hollywood treatment and ending.

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R1masher posted...

The first one is based on a true story, the rest is a cash grab

It's loosely based on the Ali/wepnar fight. The actual character rocky was taken from a few boxers, obviously the name rocky comes from rocky marciano, but the character is like a joe frazier. Apollo is obviously, 100% Muhammad Ali.

As for some people saying rocky 2 was the best sequel ever, who TF you talking to that said that? Everybody agrees all rocky movies are nothing compared to the original. Sylvester Stallone bit off alot of other ideas, other characters and ran with it, but was dumb enough to say he got inspiration from that Ali fight he watched, and wepnar eventually sued and won lol. But yeah, Sylvester Stallone really dragged that franchise into the pit of hell, same with Rambo. One too many sequels.

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Don't skip Rocky Balboa (part 6) and the Creed franchise.

I haven't watched 5 in years but it was fucking terrible IIRC.

4 is bad in the best way possible, it's fun as hell.

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Rocky is one of those series where all merit died when they made a sequel. Stallone got on the roids and the writing went to shit.

If you recall

"They're ain't gonna be no rematch."

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Yeah that was also one of my disappointments with Rocky II, what they did with Adrians character. Still love it though. I really like that scene where Apollo is training alone and you hear the Apollo! Apollo! chants going off in his head.

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Ilishe posted...

Don't skip Rocky Balboa (part 6) and the Creed franchise.

I haven't watched 5 in years but it was fucking terrible IIRC.

4 is bad in the best way possible, it's fun as hell.

I've seen Creed 1 and 2. Legit, the training montage in the first one gave me goosebumps. That's an incredible movie on its own, and arguably one of the best reboots ever made.

I've seen 3, 4 and some of 5 before, but that was years ago. Like, my mum recorded them off of TV one year when a local channel was doing a Rocky marathon. It would have been around the same time as Rocky Balboa. 3 and 4 are gonna be like revisiting an old friend, 5 is gonna be uncharted waters and Balboa is gonna be completely new.

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Ilishe posted...

Don't skip Rocky Balboa (part 6) and the Creed franchise.

I haven't watched 5 in years but it was fucking terrible IIRC.

4 is bad in the best way possible, it's fun as hell.

The truth, right there. I thought RB was going to be a joke and i went in with super low expectations but it was soooo good. And yeah both Creeds are great.

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2 was a bit boring at times but Rocky's dynamic with Mickey and the fight were the best parts. Still one of the better films in the series.

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Rocky and First Blood both had original source material that they pulled from. All the sequels got made because.... Well like Arnold they just can't let shit go unless it's on their own terms. Terminator 2 got made because Arnold wanted to be the good guy. Rocky 2 got made because Stallone wanted Rocky to win. All the Rambo movies got made because Stallone threw a fit until they changed the ending from Rambo dying to just being arrested.

So if you're wondering why the sequels just aren't as good, it's because they were forced through with no inspiration just to appease some actors that suddenly got super popular.

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It irritated me that Rocky's fighting style never really evolved past getting punched in the face a bunch of times until his opponent got tired.
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4 is the worst Rocky movie by far. Even worse than 5.

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MrResetti posted...

Rocky is one of those series where all merit died when they made a sequel. Stallone got on the roids and the writing went to shit.

If you recall

"They're ain't gonna be no rematch."

That does kinda kill the hospital scene at the start, where Creed is already butthurt, but those office scenes with Tony and Creed's hurt ego were decent enough motivators. It's petty, but it's interesting - an absolute nobody, who Apollo dragged off the street to fight, went 15 rounds with him and got such a swell of support that people think Apollo rigged the match. It's clear the whole movie that Apollo Creed is shaken, and it's that antagonism - dragging a retired boxer out of retirement with a second bid for the title, out of no obligation but to satisfy his wounded ego - that really sticks out to me. I guess I did enjoy Apollo Creed in this movie.

I can see him breaking like he does in this movie, is what I'm saying. 6 months of bad press, and the first win he didn't earn by knockout, would do that to him.

But yeah, when Stallone got big, he started getting shit. I personally think he sold out with the first Rambo sequel, because in the first movie there's a potent anti-war message and a case to support military veterans who are dealing with shattered psyches, only to bring Rambo back into warfare and portray him as a total badass in the sequels. It totally undercuts the first movie's point.

It's movies like Balboa and Creed that bring him back to being a halfway decent actor. Stallone is Rocky Balboa, and he does an incredible job at portraying this character in at least half of his movies. But as an action hero? Total hack.

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Rocky 2s more interesting aspects come from Apollo imo. He's fucking broken even though he won that last fight. All he knows how to do is win and be praised for it. Suddenly, his world is turned upside down. Everything he values most at this point in life is threatened and hes on edge. He doesn't even fully understand why. It's a nice contrast to Rocky who is adjusting to his own feelings of insecurity from people viewing him differently. I think they learn a little bit from each other.

Your criticisms of Adrian are pretty accurate. She's unevenly written throughout the series even though she does have some really good scenes.

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UnholyMudcrab posted...

It irritated me that Rocky's fighting style never really evolved past getting punched in the face a bunch of times until his opponent got tired.

truth, lmao

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jeffhardyb0yz posted...

if you proposed that Rocky should lose again in the 2nd film, then youd kill the franchise and character. How about no

I wouldn't have pitched seuqals at all and I think the only thing of quality lost would be in the soundtracks.

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Tyranthraxus posted...

4 is the worst Rocky movie by far. Even worse than 5.

get out!

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jeffhardyb0yz posted...

Rocky II has the best fight. There is some character regression and the whole Adrian baby thing is melodramatic, but it still makes for a good sequel. I love it. The movies are still humane.

III is when it really becomes cartoonish but I fucking love 3 and 4 because they are 80s as fuck and I love the 80s style.

2 is the best movie in the series but 3 has the best fight imo. Its the only one where Rocky is technical and tries to use counters and dodge blows instead of just standing there with his guard completely down and hitting hit a million times lol. The Creed movies have much better fight choreography than any of the Rocky movies though

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Creed 2 is complicated. It's watchable, but it does teeter on that line between being a good, solid sports movie like Creed 1 and the good Rocky movies, and being a rehash nostalgia bait movie like the biggest blockbusters nowadays tend to be.

Even if it was a better movie, it would absolutely have a hard time living up to Creed 1. That movie's a masterpiece, a reboot of Rocky starring Apollo Creed's secret illegitimate lovechild where Rocky is the trainer has no goddamn business being as good as it is.

Honestly, after seeing Adrian's dropoff in Rocky 2, I'm not that bothered by the relationship in Creed 2 being kinda weak and rushed. What matters to me is that any potential future Creed movies are watchable - if they can at least stand out in the first movie's shadow, that'll be good enough. Here's hoping for a John Wick situation at worst - first movie is excellent and stands on its own, the second movie is fine, the third movie has effectively hit upon the John Wick formula and offered bigger and better thrills than 2

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Wait, did TC watch 3, 4, Creed, and Creed 2 before Rocky 1 & 2?

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Blue_Target posted...

Wait, did TC watch 3, 4, Creed, and Creed 2 before Rocky 1 & 2?

I watched 3, 4, some of 5, Creed and Creed 2 before Rocky 1 and 2, yes. Like I said before, my first exposure to the Rocky movies were from video copies that we taped off of TV back in the 2000's. The Rocky movies were cultural touchstones even back then, so it's not like I didn't get the gist of Rocky.

Honestly, I'm kind of happy I knew Rocky more from 3 and 4 than from 1. The first movie was like a shot in the arm, seeing Sylvester Stallone actually act out a quirky, interesting character. He is a talented actor, at least on some level - he's just been a hack for most of his career, relying on his abs and a squinty stare into the camera for most of his career. Also, it was nice seeing where his hat in Creed came from, lmao

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jeffhardyb0yz posted...

No more creed movies after 3. It should end at 3. No need for the franchise imo outside of money.

Maybe so, but those fight scenes are electric.

I feel like we need more earnest sports movies on the market today, something that awakens that primal passion in us - to make us want to see someone succeed. I don't get that reaction from the 2000's The Longest Yard, or Remember the Titans, or any of that. I don't get that urge from biopics, where they use a real person's story to inspire. For some reason, I get that feeling from a good Rocky movie.

If Creed isn't around to tap that market, I feel like there really does need to be a series of sports movies to replace it. That, or a good race movie.

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What did you guys think of Southpaw?

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Yeah II is a good enough movie as its own thing but it retread a lot of ground--especially in terms of Adrian and Paulie--and couldn't live up to the legend that is Rocky 1. Not to mention the retcon between the combatants not wanting a rematch to really wanting a rematch. In fairness, they did make it somewhat believable but it was still clear that the movie was just never supposed to happen.

They basically had no idea what to do with Adrian and Paulie after the first film so they just did the same thing again and again--until Rocky Balboa, where they actually did Paulie some justice and... well... finally did something different with Adrian (don't spoil!)

The two exceptions are that Adrian in Rocky III was on point, and Paulie in Rocky V finally has a tiny bit of character development after 1 (and I do mean tiny).

II is still better than IV and V. IV is still worth watching but not as an actual quality movie; more like for moments and scenes here and there. V is pretty bad and doesn't even matter for the series going forward. Well I guess it does actually, come to think.

After that, it actually recovers really well. Balboa was surprisingly good--I mean, the tone alone was freaking perfect--and the Creed films were great too. I actually really liked Creed II, which I understand a lot of people didn't (at least not as much as 1). Yeah it did the cheap nostalgia thing but it did it with variations here and there, and the end of the final fight was 100% perfect.

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DD Divine posted...

get out!

Yeah that was a pretty terrible Rocky movie. Not even any boxing in it!

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jeffhardyb0yz posted...

Rocky II has the best fight.

Did you miss Rocky 5?
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divot1338 posted...

What did you guys think of Southpaw?

I only watched the first half an hour but I thought it was terrible

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Paulie isn't a loser, he's just a jealous bum.

I mean he hated his job but still went to work everyday to hold things together for himself and his sis.

Though it's obvious he seemed to hook ole Rock up with his sis for dibs on a job for Gazzo.

Then again maybe Rocky was only being friends with Paulie just to get at Adrian.

I mean it's not clear how long Rocky and Paulie knew each other.

Don't see them as childhood buds.

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divot1338 posted...

What did you guys think of Southpaw?

Mediocre as hell.

UnholyMudcrab posted...

It irritated me that Rocky's fighting style never really evolved past getting punched in the face a bunch of times until his opponent got tired.

Never seen Raging Bull?


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