Board 8 > Iceman Finishes Ranking Every Tales Series Party Member

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NBIceman 04/04/20 12:37:12 AM #51:	#1 - Luke fon Fabre (Abyss) I don't even have a past to lose, but I've still decided that I'm me. It doesn't matter what you think. Here I am. If that's the source of the strength you're talking about, then I won't lose. I dont imagine this is a massive surprise to anyone thats ever paid any attention to me talking about the Tales series around B8. Ive made no bones about the fact that Tales of the Abyss is my all-time favorite video game, and usually when someone loves Abyss that much, its due in large part to Luke. Im no different. I mentioned once or twice that Symphonia was my first Tales game, and while I loved it at the time, its not like I immediately felt like a fan of the series. It was probably a year or two after I finished it before I found a used copy of Abyss at my local Gamestop. I almost didnt buy it, because it was sitting right next to a used copy of Legendia that was $10 cheaper I wonder how long it wouldve taken me to get around to the rest of the series if that one had been my second instead... Anyway, I ultimately chose Abyss, more or less on a whim. Even now, I dont know what exactly it was that led me to that choice. Its not like Id done a whole lot of research on which entries were generally considered the best or anything. Just felt like the right one, I guess. And then I damn near dropped it 1/3 of the way in. I think the only reason I didnt is because I happened to be away from home for a weekend and I hadnt brought any other games with me. I absolutely could not stand Luke, for reasons that are, of course, obvious in retrospect. To tell the kind of story they wanted to tell with him, they had to take a big risk and make him as unlikable as possible in the beginning. And they succeeded. Hes abrasive, ignorant, selfish, impulsive, whiny... Name a negative trait and early-game Luke probably has at least a little of it. It gets to be almost unbearable by the time the party gets to Deo Pass and hes turned up his arrogance and mistreatment of everyone to 11. And then Akzeriuth happens, and ~~the world literally comes crashing down around him. Hes been betrayed by the only person he actually trusted, his actions have killed many innocent people, and its revealed hes really a replica.~~ So he responds the only way he knows how - total denial. He refuses to accept any responsibility at all, which is finally what drives the rest of the party away and, in turn, forces him to acknowledge that he has to change. A sidebar - I think people miss this little detail when discussing the rest of the Abyss party. Their freezing out of Luke, for the most part, isnt really because they think hes totally to blame. Its more because he insists that he doesnt deserve any of the blame whatsoever for what happened, and while I agree with the prevailing opinion that it definitely wasnt actually his fault, Ive never been able to get on board with the idea that he isnt at least partly culpable. More on this in a bit. Now, post-haircut, a lot of players like to argue that the pendulum swings too far in the other direction and Luke becomes angst incarnate. I honestly dont agree. The angst doesnt really start until the conclusion is eventually reached that ~~his birth wasnt foretold in the Score.~~ Remember how pervasive the Score is in the Abyss society - people trust in and follow it to an absolutely fanatical degree, and its telling him that ~~he was never supposed to exist.~~ And even then, the angst doesnt actually get bad until ~~more replicas start popping up and everyone - party members, nations rulers, random people on the street - treat them as nothing but nuisances.~~ Given everything, it wouldnt be at all realistic if he didnt have some major self-worth issues, and his mistakes weigh so heavily on him that its natural he would be prone to rushing toward drastic options out of pure desperation to atone for them. And that makes it feel all the more worth it when he finally acknowledges that his life has value and that hes his own person. Its a truly fantastic character arc from beginning to end. Plus, its easy to forget that hes technically seven years old, and Jade explicitly states at one point that replicas do start with the maturity of a child no matter how old they are physically. His thought processes, all through the game, make perfect sense for how young he actually is and for what hes gone through, what with his sheltered upbringing and so forth. Ive even come to appreciate early-game Luke more and more as Ive played through the game so many times, because theres plenty of moments that hint at his inherent good heart. He has a bit of a soft spot for Ion, awkwardly tries to cheer Tear up when she feels guilty over his mothers illness, and of course, feels deep regret for taking human lives (which never completely goes away). His asshole behavior is more of a defense mechanism than anything. Hes a young boy thrown literally across the world into situations hes far from prepared for and cannot possibly be expected to adapt to well, and hes understandably terrified. So he mistreats everyone (Mieu especially, because hes the only thing that he has actual power and control over) just to make it appear as though he has a grip on things. His Deo Pass meltdown comes right on the heels of his first encounter with Asch (which no one else in the cast seems to think is especially strange), being told hes going to be used as an impetus to start a war and then locked up forever, finding out his father figure is being treated as a criminal, and having the enormous pressure of a goodwill ambassador position forced on him. Its little wonder he didnt cope well. Im not gonna spend a ton of time here on the Tear romance because I talked about it plenty for her, but I think Lukes side is done really well. He finds her very attractive from day one and says so multiple times, but has a problem with her attitude. Once he fixes his own attitude, its heartwarming to see his awkward attempts to repay her for helping him in his journey, like the great lengths he goes to to get back her pendant without even really knowing what it is. And hes the star of one of the most genuinely sweet scenes in the whole series, when he simply turns around instead of leaving her side when she says she doesnt want anyone to see her cry. --- https://imgur.com/UYamul2 Spurs - Yankees - Eagles - Golden Knights <cite>NBIceman posted [p:936746615] in Iceman Fin... [t:78530883]...</cite> <quote>#1 - Luke fon Fabre (Abyss) I don't even have a past to lose, but I've still decided that I'm me. It doesn't matter what you think. Here I am. If that's the source of the strength you're talking about, then I won't lose. I dont imagine this is a massive surprise to anyone thats ever paid any attention to me talking about the Tales series around B8. Ive made no bones about the fact that Tales of the Abyss is my all-time favorite video game, and usually when someone loves Abyss that much, its due in large part to Luke. Im no different. I mentioned once or twice that Symphonia was my first Tales game, and while I loved it at the time, its not like I immediately felt like a fan of the series. It was probably a year or two after I finished it before I found a used copy of Abyss at my local Gamestop. I almost didnt buy it, because it was sitting right next to a used copy of Legendia that was $10 cheaper I wonder how long it wouldve taken me to get around to the rest of the series if that one had been my second instead... Anyway, I ultimately chose Abyss, more or less on a whim. Even now, I dont know what exactly it was that led me to that choice. Its not like Id done a whole lot of research on which entries were generally considered the best or anything. Just felt like the right one, I guess. And then I damn near dropped it 1/3 of the way in. I think the only reason I didnt is because I happened to be away from home for a weekend and I hadnt brought any other games with me. I absolutely could not stand Luke, for reasons that are, of course, obvious in retrospect. To tell the kind of story they wanted to tell with him, they had to take a big risk and make him as unlikable as possible in the beginning. And they succeeded. Hes abrasive, ignorant, selfish, impulsive, whiny... Name a negative trait and early-game Luke probably has at least a little of it. It gets to be almost unbearable by the time the party gets to Deo Pass and hes turned up his arrogance and mistreatment of everyone to 11. And then Akzeriuth happens, and the world literally comes crashing down around him. Hes been betrayed by the only person he actually trusted, his actions have killed many innocent people, and its revealed hes really a replica. So he responds the only way he knows how - total denial. He refuses to accept any responsibility at all, which is finally what drives the rest of the party away and, in turn, forces him to acknowledge that he has to change. A sidebar - I think people miss this little detail when discussing the rest of the Abyss party. Their freezing out of Luke, for the most part, isnt really because they think hes totally to blame. Its more because he insists that he doesnt deserve any of the blame whatsoever for what happened, and while I agree with the prevailing opinion that it definitely wasnt actually his fault, Ive never been able to get on board with the idea that he isnt at least partly culpable. More on this in a bit. Now, post-haircut, a lot of players like to argue that the pendulum swings too far in the other direction and Luke becomes angst incarnate. I honestly dont agree. The angst doesnt really start until the conclusion is eventually reached that his birth wasnt foretold in the Score. Remember how pervasive the Score is in the Abyss society - people trust in and follow it to an absolutely fanatical degree, and its telling him that he was never supposed to exist. And even then, the angst doesnt actually get bad until more replicas start popping up and everyone - party members, nations rulers, random people on the street - treat them as nothing but nuisances. Given everything, it wouldnt be at all realistic if he didnt have some major self-worth issues, and his mistakes weigh so heavily on him that its natural he would be prone to rushing toward drastic options out of pure desperation to atone for them. And that makes it feel all the more worth it when he finally acknowledges that his life has value and that hes his own person. Its a truly fantastic character arc from beginning to end. Plus, its easy to forget that hes technically seven years old, and Jade explicitly states at one point that replicas do start with the maturity of a child no matter how old they are physically. His thought processes, all through the game, make perfect sense for how young he actually is and for what hes gone through, what with his sheltered upbringing and so forth. Ive even come to appreciate early-game Luke more and more as Ive played through the game so many times, because theres plenty of moments that hint at his inherent good heart. He has a bit of a soft spot for Ion, awkwardly tries to cheer Tear up when she feels guilty over his mothers illness, and of course, feels deep regret for taking human lives (which never completely goes away). His asshole behavior is more of a defense mechanism than anything. Hes a young boy thrown literally across the world into situations hes far from prepared for and cannot possibly be expected to adapt to well, and hes understandably terrified. So he mistreats everyone (Mieu especially, because hes the only thing that he has actual power and control over) just to make it appear as though he has a grip on things. His Deo Pass meltdown comes right on the heels of his first encounter with Asch (which no one else in the cast seems to think is especially strange), being told hes going to be used as an impetus to start a war and then locked up forever, finding out his father figure is being treated as a criminal, and having the enormous pressure of a goodwill ambassador position forced on him. Its little wonder he didnt cope well. Im not gonna spend a ton of time here on the Tear romance because I talked about it plenty for her, but I think Lukes side is done really well. He finds her very attractive from day one and says so multiple times, but has a problem with her attitude. Once he fixes his own attitude, its heartwarming to see his awkward attempts to repay her for helping him in his journey, like the great lengths he goes to to get back her pendant without even really knowing what it is. And hes the star of one of the most genuinely sweet scenes in the whole series, when he simply turns around instead of leaving her side when she says she doesnt want anyone to see her cry. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
NBIceman 04/04/20 12:37:20 AM #52:	Ultimately, though, what makes a character especially memorable to me is how well their journey gets across the overall themes of their game (or show or book or whatever), so I should speak to that now. The first is that of destiny vs free will. Obviously, the Score plays a huge part here for the game as a whole, but its not incredibly important as an impetus for Lukes development specifically. What is a much more interesting debate is where the fault of ~~Akzeriuth~~ lies. I talked about this to varying degrees in the other Abyss write-ups and touched on it earlier here, but Ill restate once again that there is definitely some blame to be placed on at least a dozen different characters, and Luke is certainly not completely blameless himself. But how much of a part he ultimately played is very debatable. Theres a fascinating skit no more than two hours into the game, right after Mieu starts tagging along, where Luke just makes him breathe fire in every direction for no reason. When hes admonished, he callously states that if anything burns because of it, itd be Mieus fault because hes the one actually doing it. Everyone, I think, could agree thats a ludicrous conclusion. At the time, it seems like a completely innocuous conversation, one youll likely forget about before long. But then, in effect, ~~Luke finds himself in Mieus position at Akzeriuth, and in direct defiance of what he said back then, he steadfastly maintains its not his fault because he was being manipulated.~~ When you look at those two scenarios back to back, its hard to disagree with him completely. Its a lot like the classic philosophical debate involving the man being pushed out of a window. But I also dont think its fair to act like he was completely powerless. His motives for keeping Vans plans to himself were ultimately selfish, and the fact that he didnt even mention anything to someone like Guy, who would have been a completely innocuous confidant, was just plain silly of him. Now, would that have ultimately mattered? Not really. But I think its doing his story a disservice to pretend like his choices didnt play some kind of a part in what happened. His eventual decision to take responsibility, even after finding out that the destruction was foretold in the Score, is a bombshell moment in hindsight because it represents the first instance of anyone in the cast shifting to the perspective that the Score is not absolute and is actually just one of many possible futures. Even more important is the second theme. Namco calls Tales of the Abyss To Know the Meaning of Ones Birth RPG, which is a motif that shows up multiple times throughout the game and the one that forms the crux of Lukes post-Akzeriuth development. How can a life have meaning if ~~the Score seems to dictate that you were never meant to live?~~ Thats the question he grapples with. As far as the Score is concerned (at least on its face), Luke fon Fabre shouldve died at Akzeriuth. Plus, replica Luke should never have existed in the first place. Much of what motivates his death seeking tendencies is desperation to ascribe some meaning to his birth beyond just the destruction of an entire city full of people. He cant fathom any purpose that would justify his existence beyond saving the world by playing the martyr. But then, when he finally gets his chance, something incredible happens. He realizes he wants to live. And in a cruel twist of fate, ~~he learns he really is going to die soon after, and theres nothing that can be done about it.~~ Ironically, though, this finally takes the great weight off his shoulders. Finding some great purpose doesnt seem so important anymore. He decides that theres no inherent meaning in life and he thus accepts himself as he is, allowing himself to just be happy. Its a beautiful story, one thats had an effect on the way I approach my own life at times. People lose sight of it sometimes because they get frustrated by the technobabble or get annoyed at the backtracking or yadda yadda, but the Abyss story is really pretty damn deep and mature, especially by JRPG standards. And it rests on the shoulders of Luke and his grand development from a boy living a meaningless life to a boy desperately searching for a meaning to a man who ultimately realizes thats not something he needs to worry about. Hes the best-written character of an amazingly well-written cast, and I could honestly go on talking about him even longer than this. He went from almost single-handedly making me give up on Abyss forever to being a large part of why I love the game so much, and thats a testament to great development. Hes my favorite Tales character and my favorite video game character, and I even as much as I sometimes temporarily feel like I enjoy Jade or Magilou more, I honestly dont see that ever changing. TL;DR: The best developed character in video game history. Fight me. --- https://imgur.com/UYamul2 Spurs - Yankees - Eagles - Golden Knights <cite>NBIceman posted [p:936746622] in Iceman Fin... [t:78530883]...</cite> <quote>Ultimately, though, what makes a character especially memorable to me is how well their journey gets across the overall themes of their game (or show or book or whatever), so I should speak to that now. The first is that of destiny vs free will. Obviously, the Score plays a huge part here for the game as a whole, but its not incredibly important as an impetus for Lukes development specifically. What is a much more interesting debate is where the fault of Akzeriuth lies. I talked about this to varying degrees in the other Abyss write-ups and touched on it earlier here, but Ill restate once again that there is definitely some blame to be placed on at least a dozen different characters, and Luke is certainly not completely blameless himself. But how much of a part he ultimately played is very debatable. Theres a fascinating skit no more than two hours into the game, right after Mieu starts tagging along, where Luke just makes him breathe fire in every direction for no reason. When hes admonished, he callously states that if anything burns because of it, itd be Mieus fault because hes the one actually doing it. Everyone, I think, could agree thats a ludicrous conclusion. At the time, it seems like a completely innocuous conversation, one youll likely forget about before long. But then, in effect, Luke finds himself in Mieus position at Akzeriuth, and in direct defiance of what he said back then, he steadfastly maintains its not his fault because he was being manipulated. When you look at those two scenarios back to back, its hard to disagree with him completely. Its a lot like the classic philosophical debate involving the man being pushed out of a window. But I also dont think its fair to act like he was completely powerless. His motives for keeping Vans plans to himself were ultimately selfish, and the fact that he didnt even mention anything to someone like Guy, who would have been a completely innocuous confidant, was just plain silly of him. Now, would that have ultimately mattered? Not really. But I think its doing his story a disservice to pretend like his choices didnt play some kind of a part in what happened. His eventual decision to take responsibility, even after finding out that the destruction was foretold in the Score, is a bombshell moment in hindsight because it represents the first instance of anyone in the cast shifting to the perspective that the Score is not absolute and is actually just one of many possible futures. Even more important is the second theme. Namco calls Tales of the Abyss To Know the Meaning of Ones Birth RPG, which is a motif that shows up multiple times throughout the game and the one that forms the crux of Lukes post-Akzeriuth development. How can a life have meaning if the Score seems to dictate that you were never meant to live? Thats the question he grapples with. As far as the Score is concerned (at least on its face), Luke fon Fabre shouldve died at Akzeriuth. Plus, replica Luke should never have existed in the first place. Much of what motivates his death seeking tendencies is desperation to ascribe some meaning to his birth beyond just the destruction of an entire city full of people. He cant fathom any purpose that would justify his existence beyond saving the world by playing the martyr. But then, when he finally gets his chance, something incredible happens. He realizes he wants to live. And in a cruel twist of fate, he learns he really is going to die soon after, and theres nothing that can be done about it. Ironically, though, this finally takes the great weight off his shoulders. Finding some great purpose doesnt seem so important anymore. He decides that theres no inherent meaning in life and he thus accepts himself as he is, allowing himself to just be happy. Its a beautiful story, one thats had an effect on the way I approach my own life at times. People lose sight of it sometimes because they get frustrated by the technobabble or get annoyed at the backtracking or yadda yadda, but the Abyss story is really pretty damn deep and mature, especially by JRPG standards. And it rests on the shoulders of Luke and his grand development from a boy living a meaningless life to a boy desperately searching for a meaning to a man who ultimately realizes thats not something he needs to worry about. Hes the best-written character of an amazingly well-written cast, and I could honestly go on talking about him even longer than this. He went from almost single-handedly making me give up on Abyss forever to being a large part of why I love the game so much, and thats a testament to great development. Hes my favorite Tales character and my favorite video game character, and I even as much as I sometimes temporarily feel like I enjoy Jade or Magilou more, I honestly dont see that ever changing. TL;DR: The best developed character in video game history. Fight me. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
NBIceman 04/04/20 12:43:00 AM #53:	Tales of the Abyss Wrap-Up Im just terribly misunderstood, honest! As much as Luke is a giant part of my love for Abyss, the rest of the cast carries their weight and then some too. Its one of the best examples Ive seen of the party dynamic itself shifting as the game progresses. In the beginning, none of them trust each other. Very few of them like each other at all. A few of them outright despise one another. More than anything, their inability to communicate effectively is what leads to ~~Akzeriuths destruction.~~ But the fallout from that tragedy brings them together again, and though its only by circumstance, they slowly begin to respect their companions abilities and warm up to each other. By the end, theyre a true team. You could pick any two of the six at random out of a hat and be able to describe in a fair amount of detail what their relationship is like, and thats pretty damn rare in JRPGs. Anise is easily the least interesting and likable of the bunch and even she has a lot of nuance to her thats worth talking about. I see the Abyss party get some hate every once in a while because they dont treat ~~Anise after Ions death the way they treat Luke after Akzeriuth.~~ If youve ever made this argument, youre just straight up missing the point. These are true friends now, far more concerned with helping their companion through an unfathomably difficult time than they are with pointing fingers. They realized that all the blame-shifting they did with ~~Luke~~ didnt accomplish anything and decided to take a more productive strategy this time. Thats not inconsistency, its growth, and its a silly thing to get upset about. Sometimes youll love them. Other times youll hate them. But theyre always compelling. The Abyss party is the best cast of playable characters ever in an RPG. `And they were never heard from again...` --- https://imgur.com/UYamul2 Spurs - Yankees - Eagles - Golden Knights <cite>NBIceman posted [p:936746809] in Iceman Fin... [t:78530883]...</cite> <quote>Tales of the Abyss Wrap-Up Im just terribly misunderstood, honest! As much as Luke is a giant part of my love for Abyss, the rest of the cast carries their weight and then some too. Its one of the best examples Ive seen of the party dynamic itself shifting as the game progresses. In the beginning, none of them trust each other. Very few of them like each other at all. A few of them outright despise one another. More than anything, their inability to communicate effectively is what leads to Akzeriuths destruction. But the fallout from that tragedy brings them together again, and though its only by circumstance, they slowly begin to respect their companions abilities and warm up to each other. By the end, theyre a true team. You could pick any two of the six at random out of a hat and be able to describe in a fair amount of detail what their relationship is like, and thats pretty damn rare in JRPGs. Anise is easily the least interesting and likable of the bunch and even she has a lot of nuance to her thats worth talking about. I see the Abyss party get some hate every once in a while because they dont treat Anise after Ions death the way they treat Luke after Akzeriuth. If youve ever made this argument, youre just straight up missing the point. These are true friends now, far more concerned with helping their companion through an unfathomably difficult time than they are with pointing fingers. They realized that all the blame-shifting they did with Luke didnt accomplish anything and decided to take a more productive strategy this time. Thats not inconsistency, its growth, and its a silly thing to get upset about. Sometimes youll love them. Other times youll hate them. But theyre always compelling. The Abyss party is the best cast of playable characters ever in an RPG. And they were never heard from again... </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UshiromiyaEva 04/04/20 12:47:48 AM #54:	Absolutely deserved #1 I even if I wanted the upset win for my #1 girl. It is truly a shame to see how many people drop Abyss too early. This sounds condescending, but if someone comes at me with "Abyss sucks, fuck Luke", whether it be someone who beat it or dropped it early, I just can't help but think "wow, you just don't actually like this series at all, huh". Truly more frustrating when they then usually follow that up with "Symphonia is the only one I care about". <cite>UshiromiyaEva posted [p:936746986] in Iceman Fin... [t:78530883]...</cite> <quote>Absolutely deserved #1 I even if I wanted the upset win for my #1 girl. It is truly a shame to see how many people drop Abyss too early. This sounds condescending, but if someone comes at me with "Abyss sucks, fuck Luke", whether it be someone who beat it or dropped it early, I just can't help but think "wow, you just don't actually like this series at all, huh". Truly more frustrating when they then usually follow that up with "Symphonia is the only one I care about". </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
NBIceman 04/04/20 12:48:54 AM #55:	Thanks for everyone that's commented or just followed along with the ranking! It was an exhausting project at times, but I'm glad to have done it. I'll do a couple other little wrap-up things as far as ranking the casts overall and so forth sometime this weekend, but if there's anything else you're curious to know my thoughts on, just shout 'em out. Or give me your own top 10/20/50, whatever. Got plenty of room in this new topic. The final recap... "Demon Fang! Demon Fang! Damn, I must be a genius! DOUBLE Demon Fang!" 1. Luke fon Fabre (Abyss) 2. Magilou (Berseria) 3. Jade Curtiss (Abyss) 4. Zelos Wilder (Symphonia) "Shut up! This isn't about logic!" 5. Yuri Lowell (Vesperia) 6. Jude Mathis (Xillia) 7. Velvet Crowe (Berseria) 8. Guy Cecil (Abyss) 9. Raven (Vesperia) 10. Beryl Benito (Hearts) 11. Alvin (Xillia) 12. Tear Grants (Abyss) If one sword has a power of 100, then using two will make it 200, right? 13. Lloyd Irving (Symphonia) 14. Pascal (Graces) 15. Raine Sage (Symphonia) 16. Eleanor Hume (Berseria) 17. Malik Caesar (Graces) 18. Sheena Fujibayashi (Symphonia) 19. Chalcedony Akerman (Hearts) 20. Natalia Luzu Kimlasca-Lanvaldear (Abyss) 21. Laphicet (Berseria) 22. Rita Mordio (Vesperia) 23. Sophie (Graces) 24. Rowen Ilbert (Xillia) 25. Milla Maxwell (Xillia) 26. Rutee Katrea (Destiny) What could this mean for the tournament?! ...Oh screw this. I'm outta here! 27. Eizen (Berseria) 28. Farah Oersted (Eternia) 29. Richard Barona (Graces) 30. Repede (Vesperia) 31. Presea Combatir (Symphonia) 32. Reid Hershel (Eternia) 33. Chester Burklight (Phantasia) 34. Stahn Aileron (Destiny) 35. Gaius (Xillia) 36. Muzet (Xillia) Ive traveled back in time from next week. Please stop throwing monsters at us. 37. Estellise Sidos Heurassein (Vesperia) 38. Alisha Diphda (Zestiria) 39. Rokurou Rangetsu (Berseria) 40. Will Raynard (Legendia) 41. Keele Zeibel (Eternia) 42. Zaveid (Zestiria) 43. Garr Kelvin (Destiny) 44. Kor Meteor (Hearts) 45. Judith (Vesperia) 46. Ludger Kresnik (Xillia) 47. Mary Argent (Destiny) 48. Leia Rolando (Xillia) 49. Claus F. Lester (Phantasia) 50. Flynn Scifo (Vesperia) 51. Anise Tatlin (Abyss) 52. Kratos Aurion (Symphonia) 53. Ines Lorenzen (Hearts) "You're weak! You're a hack! You're wack." 54. Senel Coolidge (Legendia) 55. Rassius Luine (Eternia) 56. Max (Eternia) 57. Norma Beatty (Legendia) 58. Chloe Valens (Legendia) 59. Hubert Oswell (Graces) 60. Karyl Sheeden (Destiny) 61. Arche Klein (Phantasia) 62. Gall Gruner (Hearts) 63. Karol Capel (Vesperia) 64. Asbel Lhant (Graces) 65. Edna (Zestiria) 66. ~~Fractured Milla~~ (Xillia) "No, no, no! Horrible! Terrible! Contrived! What kind of shoddy performance is this? Youre an eyesore! Get out of my sight! 67. Regal Bryant (Symphonia) 68. Kohaku Hearts (Hearts) 69. Cress Albane (Phantasia) 70. Elize Lutus (Xillia) 71. Cheria Barnes (Graces) 72. Lailah (Zestiria) 73. Kunzite (Hearts) 74. Philia Felice (Destiny) 75. Genis Sage (Symphonia) 76. Meredy (Eternia) 77. Mint Adenade (Phantasia) 78. Moses Sandor (Legendia) 79. Dezel (Zestiria) 80. Colette Brunel (Symphonia) 81. Hisui Hearts (Hearts) The reaper and a daemon are shaking their heads at this overwrought monstrosity. Intrinsic worth, zero." 82. Chat (Eternia) 83. Grune (Legendia) 84. Mikleo (Zestiria) 85. Chelsea Torn (Destiny) 86. Patty Fleur (Vesperia) 87. Sorey (Zestiria) 88. Leon Magnus (Destiny) 89. Bruiser Khang (Destiny) 90. Emil Castagnier (Symphonia) 91. Jay (Legendia) 92. Suzu Fujibayashi (Phantasia) 93. Marta Lualdi (Symphonia) 94. Rose (Zestiria) 95. Shirley Fennes (Legendia) --- https://imgur.com/UYamul2 Spurs - Yankees - Eagles - Golden Knights <cite>NBIceman posted [p:936747017] in Iceman Fin... [t:78530883]...</cite> <quote>Thanks for everyone that's commented or just followed along with the ranking! It was an exhausting project at times, but I'm glad to have done it. I'll do a couple other little wrap-up things as far as ranking the casts overall and so forth sometime this weekend, but if there's anything else you're curious to know my thoughts on, just shout 'em out. Or give me your own top 10/20/50, whatever. Got plenty of room in this new topic. The final recap... "Demon Fang! Demon Fang! Damn, I must be a genius! DOUBLE Demon Fang!" 1. Luke fon Fabre (Abyss) 2. Magilou (Berseria) 3. Jade Curtiss (Abyss) 4. Zelos Wilder (Symphonia) "Shut up! This isn't about logic!" 5. Yuri Lowell (Vesperia) 6. Jude Mathis (Xillia) 7. Velvet Crowe (Berseria) 8. Guy Cecil (Abyss) 9. Raven (Vesperia) 10. Beryl Benito (Hearts) 11. Alvin (Xillia) 12. Tear Grants (Abyss) If one sword has a power of 100, then using two will make it 200, right? 13. Lloyd Irving (Symphonia) 14. Pascal (Graces) 15. Raine Sage (Symphonia) 16. Eleanor Hume (Berseria) 17. Malik Caesar (Graces) 18. Sheena Fujibayashi (Symphonia) 19. Chalcedony Akerman (Hearts) 20. Natalia Luzu Kimlasca-Lanvaldear (Abyss) 21. Laphicet (Berseria) 22. Rita Mordio (Vesperia) 23. Sophie (Graces) 24. Rowen Ilbert (Xillia) 25. Milla Maxwell (Xillia) 26. Rutee Katrea (Destiny) What could this mean for the tournament?! ...Oh screw this. I'm outta here! 27. Eizen (Berseria) 28. Farah Oersted (Eternia) 29. Richard Barona (Graces) 30. Repede (Vesperia) 31. Presea Combatir (Symphonia) 32. Reid Hershel (Eternia) 33. Chester Burklight (Phantasia) 34. Stahn Aileron (Destiny) 35. Gaius (Xillia) 36. Muzet (Xillia) Ive traveled back in time from next week. Please stop throwing monsters at us. 37. Estellise Sidos Heurassein (Vesperia) 38. Alisha Diphda (Zestiria) 39. Rokurou Rangetsu (Berseria) 40. Will Raynard (Legendia) 41. Keele Zeibel (Eternia) 42. Zaveid (Zestiria) 43. Garr Kelvin (Destiny) 44. Kor Meteor (Hearts) 45. Judith (Vesperia) 46. Ludger Kresnik (Xillia) 47. Mary Argent (Destiny) 48. Leia Rolando (Xillia) 49. Claus F. Lester (Phantasia) 50. Flynn Scifo (Vesperia) 51. Anise Tatlin (Abyss) 52. Kratos Aurion (Symphonia) 53. Ines Lorenzen (Hearts) "You're weak! You're a hack! You're wack." 54. Senel Coolidge (Legendia) 55. Rassius Luine (Eternia) 56. Max (Eternia) 57. Norma Beatty (Legendia) 58. Chloe Valens (Legendia) 59. Hubert Oswell (Graces) 60. Karyl Sheeden (Destiny) 61. Arche Klein (Phantasia) 62. Gall Gruner (Hearts) 63. Karol Capel (Vesperia) 64. Asbel Lhant (Graces) 65. Edna (Zestiria) 66. Fractured Milla (Xillia) "No, no, no! Horrible! Terrible! Contrived! What kind of shoddy performance is this? Youre an eyesore! Get out of my sight! 67. Regal Bryant (Symphonia) 68. Kohaku Hearts (Hearts) 69. Cress Albane (Phantasia) 70. Elize Lutus (Xillia) 71. Cheria Barnes (Graces) 72. Lailah (Zestiria) 73. Kunzite (Hearts) 74. Philia Felice (Destiny) 75. Genis Sage (Symphonia) 76. Meredy (Eternia) 77. Mint Adenade (Phantasia) 78. Moses Sandor (Legendia) 79. Dezel (Zestiria) 80. Colette Brunel (Symphonia) 81. Hisui Hearts (Hearts) The reaper and a daemon are shaking their heads at this overwrought monstrosity. Intrinsic worth, zero." 82. Chat (Eternia) 83. Grune (Legendia) 84. Mikleo (Zestiria) 85. Chelsea Torn (Destiny) 86. Patty Fleur (Vesperia) 87. Sorey (Zestiria) 88. Leon Magnus (Destiny) 89. Bruiser Khang (Destiny) 90. Emil Castagnier (Symphonia) 91. Jay (Legendia) 92. Suzu Fujibayashi (Phantasia) 93. Marta Lualdi (Symphonia) 94. Rose (Zestiria) 95. Shirley Fennes (Legendia) </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Xiahou Shake 04/04/20 3:27:40 PM #56:	What a thoroughly enjoyable ride! I may have disagreed with parts of this ranking but my favorite Tales character ended up at #1 so woo~ The write-ups were great, especially throughout the top 10, btw. I love this series to absolute bits but even I was impressed by how much passion all of those paragraphs were dripping with. --- Let the voice of love take you higher, With this gathering power, go beyond even time! <cite>Xiahou Shake posted [p:936774828] in Iceman Fin... [t:78530883]...</cite> <quote>What a thoroughly enjoyable ride! I may have disagreed with parts of this ranking but my favorite Tales character ended up at #1 so woo~ The write-ups were great, especially throughout the top 10, btw. I love this series to absolute bits but even I was impressed by how much passion all of those paragraphs were dripping with. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
_stingers_ 04/04/20 5:21:01 PM #57:	Thanks for making this list! I loved reading it --- Congrats Black Turtle! <cite>_stingers_ posted [p:936780701] in Iceman Fin... [t:78530883]...</cite> <quote>Thanks for making this list! I loved reading it </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Smash Master 04/04/20 6:23:26 PM #58:	The most deserving to win won, so in the end it checked out, even if there were some questionable choices in the early-mid parts of the list. Idle curiousity, since Abyss got so much praise (seriously, 51.... then 20,12, 8, 3, 1. 5 out of 6 in top 20, not even Berseria managed that ratio), whereabouts in the list would you put ~~Asch~~ at? No need for a writeup, just wondering where that one would slot in. --- This is a sig, woo. <cite>Smash Master posted [p:936783853] in Iceman Fin... [t:78530883]...</cite> <quote>The most deserving to win won, so in the end it checked out, even if there were some questionable choices in the early-mid parts of the list. Idle curiousity, since Abyss got so much praise (seriously, 51.... then 20,12, 8, 3, 1. 5 out of 6 in top 20, not even Berseria managed that ratio), whereabouts in the list would you put Asch at? No need for a writeup, just wondering where that one would slot in. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
NBIceman 04/04/20 7:24:28 PM #59:	Appreciate the kind words, y'all! Smash Master posted... The most deserving to win won, so in the end it checked out, even if there were some questionable choices in the early-mid parts of the list. Idle curiousity, since Abyss got so much praise (seriously, 51.... then 20,12, 8, 3, 1. 5 out of 6 in top 20, not even Berseria managed that ratio), whereabouts in the list would you put ~~Asch~~ at? No need for a writeup, just wondering where that one would slot in. He's a tough one. I talked quite a bit about how much I enjoyed all the different perspectives Abyss gave on the whole replica thing, and Asch is definitely another part of that. He's a very effective foil to Luke with how his unwillingness to change even the slightest thing about himself or to try and move past the things that have happened to him is what ultimately allows his replica to surpass him. And I think, at the base level, that makes him an interesting character; he's got some depth to him otherwise, too. Couple of problems, though. One is that I just plain don't like him very much. His angsty aggression routine kinda gets old by the end of the game and a lot of that depth I mentioned only gets explored in supplemental material. The second is that the complaints that get levied against other Abyss characters (only sometimes fairly) where their failure to be forthcoming leads to things going wrong applies much more to him a lot of the time, especially because his reasons for withholding info basically boil down to the fact that he's just a prick. I think he'd fall right outside the top 40. Just above or below Zaveid, who's actually got very similar strengths and weaknesses. --- https://imgur.com/UYamul2 Spurs - Yankees - Eagles - Golden Knights <cite>NBIceman posted [p:936787476] in Iceman Fin... [t:78530883]...</cite> <quote>Appreciate the kind words, y'all! Smash Master posted... </cite> <quote>The most deserving to win won, so in the end it checked out, even if there were some questionable choices in the early-mid parts of the list. Idle curiousity, since Abyss got so much praise (seriously, 51.... then 20,12, 8, 3, 1. 5 out of 6 in top 20, not even Berseria managed that ratio), whereabouts in the list would you put Asch at? No need for a writeup, just wondering where that one would slot in.</quote>He's a tough one. I talked quite a bit about how much I enjoyed all the different perspectives Abyss gave on the whole replica thing, and Asch is definitely another part of that. He's a very effective foil to Luke with how his unwillingness to change even the slightest thing about himself or to try and move past the things that have happened to him is what ultimately allows his replica to surpass him. And I think, at the base level, that makes him an interesting character; he's got some depth to him otherwise, too. Couple of problems, though. One is that I just plain don't like him very much. His angsty aggression routine kinda gets old by the end of the game and a lot of that depth I mentioned only gets explored in supplemental material. The second is that the complaints that get levied against other Abyss characters (only sometimes fairly) where their failure to be forthcoming leads to things going wrong applies much more to him a lot of the time, especially because his reasons for withholding info basically boil down to the fact that he's just a prick. I think he'd fall right outside the top 40. Just above or below Zaveid, who's actually got very similar strengths and weaknesses. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
pjbasis 04/04/20 7:33:09 PM #60:	Don't really call myself a huge Tales fan, but Abyss and Luke are my favorites and I don't see that changing if none of the other games explore themes or character arcs like this. --- http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr345/Rakaputra/B8%20Girls%202012/pjbas.png <cite>pjbasis posted [p:936788032] in Iceman Fin... [t:78530883]...</cite> <quote>Don't really call myself a huge Tales fan, but Abyss and Luke are my favorites and I don't see that changing if none of the other games explore themes or character arcs like this. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ZeldaTPLink 04/04/20 7:41:22 PM #61:	Fun read. Though I've only played Symphonia and Berseria. Magilou is definitely my favorite of the two casts though, although until now I hadn't really been able to put a finger on why. You fleshed it out pretty well! I also agree she is legit funny most of the time. And I enjoy just how much she has more emotional intelligence than the rest of the cast combined, and always has a grasp of what's really going on. And her dialogue is basically perfect. Plus she's fun to play with in a way I didn't think a mage could, after playing Symphonia. Also agree Sheena is just plain likable which makes her my personal favorite in ToS. <cite>ZeldaTPLink posted [p:936788534] in Iceman Fin... [t:78530883]...</cite> <quote>Fun read. Though I've only played Symphonia and Berseria. Magilou is definitely my favorite of the two casts though, although until now I hadn't really been able to put a finger on why. You fleshed it out pretty well! I also agree she is legit funny most of the time. And I enjoy just how much she has more emotional intelligence than the rest of the cast combined, and always has a grasp of what's really going on. And her dialogue is basically perfect. Plus she's fun to play with in a way I didn't think a mage could, after playing Symphonia. Also agree Sheena is just plain likable which makes her my personal favorite in ToS. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
BK_Sheikah00 04/04/20 7:43:51 PM #62:	Magilou is the most fun mage to play as, especially if there are enemy casters. Meanwhile, good luck surviving in Zesty if there are multiple casters. --- Singing my song for my dream https://imgur.com/v58wdlU <cite>BK_Sheikah00 posted [p:936788669] in Iceman Fin... [t:78530883]...</cite> <quote>Magilou is the most fun mage to play as, especially if there are enemy casters. Meanwhile, good luck surviving in Zesty if there are multiple casters. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Xiahou Shake 04/04/20 8:10:15 PM #63:	BK_Sheikah00 posted... Meanwhile, good luck surviving in Zesty if there are multiple casters. Zestiria casters on Chaos are definitely in the running for the most nonsense thing in the series, augh. Was downright cathartic playing as Magilou after that nightmare. --- Let the voice of love take you higher, With this gathering power, go beyond even time! <cite>Xiahou Shake posted [p:936790329] in Iceman Fin... [t:78530883]...</cite> <quote>BK_Sheikah00 posted... </cite> <quote>Meanwhile, good luck surviving in Zesty if there are multiple casters.</quote>Zestiria casters on Chaos are definitely in the running for the most nonsense thing in the series, augh. Was downright cathartic playing as Magilou after that nightmare. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
xp1337 04/04/20 8:12:50 PM #64:	Xiahou Shake posted... Zestiria casters on Chaos are definitely in the running for the most nonsense thing in the series, augh. truer words have never been spoken god it was the worst --- xp1337: Don't you wish there was a spell-checker that told you when you a word out? <cite>xp1337 posted [p:936790491] in Iceman Fin... [t:78530883]...</cite> <quote>Xiahou Shake posted... </cite> <quote>Zestiria casters on Chaos are definitely in the running for the most nonsense thing in the series, augh.</quote>truer words have never been spoken god it was the worst </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UshiromiyaEva 04/05/20 4:15:59 PM #65:	About 12 hours into Xillia now. This cast is a lot snarkier than I remember, lol. Current plans are Xillia, Xillia 2, Abyss, Grace's f. Have beaten Abyss and Graces f before, of course. <cite>UshiromiyaEva posted [p:936836372] in Iceman Fin... [t:78530883]...</cite> <quote>About 12 hours into Xillia now. This cast is a lot snarkier than I remember, lol. Current plans are Xillia, Xillia 2, Abyss, Grace's f. Have beaten Abyss and Graces f before, of course. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
plasmabeam 04/05/20 4:39:53 PM #66:	@NBIceman These write-ups are fantastic. I feel like I'm taking a class on characterization and character development. Do you have the entire list posted on a website somewhere? --- ~Jacksonville Jaguars~ <cite>plasmabeam posted [p:936837552] in Iceman Fin... [t:78530883]...</cite> <quote>@NBIceman These write-ups are fantastic. I feel like I'm taking a class on characterization and character development. Do you have the entire list posted on a website somewhere? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
NBIceman 04/05/20 8:55:42 PM #67:	Apart from the previous topic (where you also get the benefit of all the people telling me I'm wrong and occasionally explaining why!), not at present. They're just spread across a bunch of different Google Documents. I'll try to collect them all in some kind of central location at some point, but these topics are the best I can offer right now, unfortunately. Very much appreciate the compliment! --- https://imgur.com/UYamul2 Spurs - Yankees - Eagles - Golden Knights <cite>NBIceman posted [p:936852021] in Iceman Fin... [t:78530883]...</cite> <quote>Apart from the previous topic (where you also get the benefit of all the people telling me I'm wrong and occasionally explaining why!), not at present. They're just spread across a bunch of different Google Documents. I'll try to collect them all in some kind of central location at some point, but these topics are the best I can offer right now, unfortunately. Very much appreciate the compliment! </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Mega Mana 04/07/20 7:11:35 PM #68:	HAven't been playing much, but I just stumbled upon Kitchen Stadium in Dahngrest, and had to look up best twons because I didn't remember seeing anything about Iron Chef in those write-ups. Good to see Dahngrest #1! That theme is so good. --- "In my headcanon, some staffer saw Trump pull out his phone and start typing so they just Terry Tate Office Linebacker'd him out of his shoes." - FFD <cite>Mega Mana posted [p:936970682] in Iceman Fin... [t:78530883]...</cite> <quote>HAven't been playing much, but I just stumbled upon Kitchen Stadium in Dahngrest, and had to look up best twons because I didn't remember seeing anything about Iron Chef in those write-ups. Good to see Dahngrest #1! That theme is so good. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
NBIceman 04/08/20 9:22:14 PM #69:	I intentionally left out Iron Chef and the damn waiter minigame because they were two things that almost made me not want to put Dahngrest #1. I can kind of forgive the former since I guess it's not like you have to grind anything for it in the town proper, but yeah. Anyway, just some more cleanup stuff. Average Ranking Positions: Phantasia: 63.5 Destiny: 60.7 Eternia: 52.9 Symphonia: 48.9 (The Dawn duo sure drags this down - would be 39.4 without them) Legendia: 69.5 Abyss: 15.8 Vesperia: 38.6 Hearts: 51.3 Graces: 39.6 Xillia: 36.7 Zestiria: 70.1 Berseria: 18.7 So, going by that... Abyss > Berseria > Xillia > Vesperia > Graces > Symphonia > Hearts > Eternia > Destiny > Phantasia > Legendia > Zestiria ... which is very close to what I'd consider my ranking even without that sort of math. I think I'd probably swap Graces and Vesperia because the Graces cast has a big gameplay advantage and DE made the Vesperia cast measurably worse. From there, Xillia and Graces are close. The Graces gameplay edge isn't quite as great, especially factoring in X2, and they're likely a little better as far as sheer entertainment value goes considering they have the funniest skits in the series. Xillia just peaks higher, though. All things considered, I'd probably call them about equal when taken as wholes. And you can see the connective tissue between cast and quality for my overall ranking of the series. Abyss > Berseria > Xillia 2 > Graces > Vesperia > Xillia > Symphonia > Hearts > Eternia > Legendia > Destiny > Phantasia > Symphonia 2 >= Zestiria Legendia jumps a few spots on the strength of its setting, music, and general aesthetic, but Tales ultimately hangs its hat on its characters, and it shows. When their characters are good, the game is good. When they suck, the game sucks. Anyway, thanks again for reading, everyone. Glad so many of you enjoyed it. I plan on doing a ranking for Arise when it comes out as well, and then I'll put that cast in a rough position on this larger list afterwards. Looks like the first topic is gonna be purging soon, so if we have any late-comers that want to see a particular character's writeup, just let me know and I'll be happy to repost it here until I settle on a better way to archive the list. --- https://imgur.com/UYamul2 Spurs - Yankees - Eagles - Golden Knights <cite>NBIceman posted [p:937040810] in Iceman Fin... [t:78530883]...</cite> <quote>I intentionally left out Iron Chef and the damn waiter minigame because they were two things that almost made me not want to put Dahngrest #1. I can kind of forgive the former since I guess it's not like you have to grind anything for it in the town proper, but yeah. Anyway, just some more cleanup stuff. Average Ranking Positions: Phantasia: 63.5 Destiny: 60.7 Eternia: 52.9 Symphonia: 48.9 (The Dawn duo sure drags this down - would be 39.4 without them) Legendia: 69.5 Abyss: 15.8 Vesperia: 38.6 Hearts: 51.3 Graces: 39.6 Xillia: 36.7 Zestiria: 70.1 Berseria: 18.7 So, going by that... Abyss > Berseria > Xillia > Vesperia > Graces > Symphonia > Hearts > Eternia > Destiny > Phantasia > Legendia > Zestiria ... which is very close to what I'd consider my ranking even without that sort of math. I think I'd probably swap Graces and Vesperia because the Graces cast has a big gameplay advantage and DE made the Vesperia cast measurably worse. From there, Xillia and Graces are close. The Graces gameplay edge isn't quite as great, especially factoring in X2, and they're likely a little better as far as sheer entertainment value goes considering they have the funniest skits in the series. Xillia just peaks higher, though. All things considered, I'd probably call them about equal when taken as wholes. And you can see the connective tissue between cast and quality for my overall ranking of the series. Abyss > Berseria > Xillia 2 > Graces > Vesperia > Xillia > Symphonia > Hearts > Eternia > Legendia > Destiny > Phantasia > Symphonia 2 >= Zestiria Legendia jumps a few spots on the strength of its setting, music, and general aesthetic, but Tales ultimately hangs its hat on its characters, and it shows. When their characters are good, the game is good. When they suck, the game sucks. Anyway, thanks again for reading, everyone. Glad so many of you enjoyed it. I plan on doing a ranking for Arise when it comes out as well, and then I'll put that cast in a rough position on this larger list afterwards. Looks like the first topic is gonna be purging soon, so if we have any late-comers that want to see a particular character's writeup, just let me know and I'll be happy to repost it here until I settle on a better way to archive the list. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UshiromiyaEva 04/08/20 11:10:17 PM #70:	God, there's just nothing coming out about Arise at all. <cite>UshiromiyaEva posted [p:937046363] in Iceman Fin... [t:78530883]...</cite> <quote>God, there's just nothing coming out about Arise at all. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
_stingers_ 04/08/20 11:36:49 PM #71:	UshiromiyaEva posted... God, there's just nothing coming out about Arise at all. Hopefully covid doesn't affect it :( --- Congrats Black Turtle! <cite>_stingers_ posted [p:937047591] in Iceman Fin... [t:78530883]...</cite> <quote>UshiromiyaEva posted... </cite> <quote>God, there's just nothing coming out about Arise at all.</quote>Hopefully covid doesn't affect it :( </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Board 8 > Iceman Finishes Ranking Every Tales Series Party Member (+) Yeah! (+)

Board 8 > Iceman Finishes Ranking Every Tales Series Party Member