Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 279: Bye-Don.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Bye-Don come on.

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Good pun

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I'm confident in the Warren's endorsement incoming because otherwise she becomes the most disliked Democrat in the country...and she HAS to know that, right?

I thought so.

So anyway I will say this again as someone who is really, really in the weeds of political stuff as it is one half of my jobs:

Oh my god are there some vicious moderates out there. Just, brutally hateful people who I come at calmly who berate me - people I have known since I was a kid who I didn't expect that from!

Within the Bernie movement there is MASSIVE pushback against being negative. Absolutely, stunningly massive. Suprak brings up SfP which is weird because in their rules they disallow people going negative and delete things with great regularity.

At this point I feel you need to realize you're probably being manipulated. Like, hello? It's the internet, of course everyone can be horrible at times but it just so happens that the guy fighting every establishment thing you can name has just the absolute majority of "the worst"? Some of it I can excuse - young people being fiery and upset, sure, but this narrative that it has become? You can't attack the man, so you attack the huddled masses who are for things like....

*reads notes*

social, racial, economic, and environmental justice.


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MichelBollinger posted...

I'm confident in the Warren's endorsement incoming because otherwise she becomes the most disliked Democrat in the country...and she HAS to know that, right?

Why would staying out of it or endorsing Biden, a popular Democrat, make her the most disliked Democrat in the country solely off Bernie supporters who want to blame her for his loss? Either way, there's some pretty unpopular Democrats out there.

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right, and then they say "well bernie has done nothing to stop it, he doesn't ever address it, he encourages it"

and you link them to clips or quotes of him explicitly saying he denounced all negative behaviour and not to do it

and the response is some variation of "well it's not enough" "he doesn't actually mean it though" etc

I think Bernie has done a great job of disavowing it and saying it needs to stop

I think the reason Suprak got upset is because despite that, somebody was flat out pushing it/defending it/encouraging it in this very topic.

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oh his base will be called that and insulted no matter what. yes, you guys got the short end of the stick, the media is purposefully against you so of course you aren't going to get a fair shake.

just a case of what are you trying to do here, exactly.

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Dels posted...

right, and then they say "well bernie has done nothing to stop it, he doesn't ever address it, he encourages it"

and you link them to clips or quotes of him explicitly saying he denounced all negative behaviour and not to do it

and the response is some variation of "well it's not enough" "he doesn't actually mean it though" etc

Exactly this, its basically impossible to counter the narrative at this point.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7QXk-xbRgSg


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people don't like changing their minds even when presented with new information that counters their previous belief

it's science or whatever

It's true. Like we literally have someone who has been proven to have lied about many things and it just doesn't matter to the media.

It's Biden.

If Bernie had lied about the same things, campaign over.

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HashtagSEP posted...

I think Bernie has done a great job of disavowing it and saying it needs to stop

I think the reason Suprak got upset is because despite that, somebody was flat out pushing it/defending it/encouraging it in this very topic.

Right, but I shared a meme in response to a meme. Many of us have known each other 10 years or more, can we not chuckle at a little bit of doom and gloom?

If you go to my Twitter, Im 100% good and friendly, even after a blue check mark told me to log off when I asked him for us to work together, lol.

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Reminder that the American people broadly support left wing policy but are only given a choice between centre-right-to-right and right-to-far-right parties not because of the popular will, but because of the actions of very few.

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Heres the thing that gets me though, if she doesnt endorse Bernie they were 100% correct.
Not that shes a DNC plant, but that shes not with us

Also here's the hot take about "Not Me, Us"

If the "Me" is Bernie saying that the progressive movement is bigger than he is, then by extension the "Us" has to include progressives and liberals who aren't Bernie supporters! These people are not the enemy, they just don't like your guy.

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my posts were not in relation to suprak or the last topic since i hadn't read it.

the bernie supporters who are rude and toxic do exist and i have seen the subreddit and the massive number of posts calling warren a snake and etc. i just agree with chris that it's also played up and i also feel that no one should be making decisions based on the words of immature toxic people on social media (even though it's 100% human and valid to have your feelings hurt and be affected by it, as iatg has said)

also on the topic of convincing warren supporters, there's going to be some selection bias here. the people who cared about the progressive moment 100% more than anything else were either already with bernie or moved over already. the only ones left to convince it's because they have concerns other than "make sure any progressive wins" so if the angle you try to take with them is "its important a progressive wins" you won't be making good headway to start your case.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Right, but I shared a meme in response to a meme. Many of us have known each other 10 years or more, can we not chuckle at a little bit of doom and gloom?

If you go to my Twitter, Im 100% good and friendly, even after a blue check mark told me to log off when I asked him for us to work together, lol.

Oh, I'm not trying to specifically call you out, so I apologize for that.

I'm just trying to say that tensions are high right now and Suprak likely reacted to something moreso than he would normally because it was kinda right in his face. I get there's no ill intent involved and we obviously share memes all the time. I just don't think there's actually a fight, here.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Also here's the hot take about "Not Me, Us"

If the "Me" is Bernie saying that the progressive movement is bigger than he is, then by extension the "Us" has to include progressives and liberals who aren't Bernie supporters! These people are not the enemy, they just don't like your guy.

I just wish that they held the people they do like to higher standards.

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MichelBollinger posted...

I'm confident in the Warren's endorsement incoming because otherwise she becomes the most disliked Democrat in the country...and she HAS to know that, right?

I think it strongly depends on how Bernie does in other states. If it looks like he can catch up, Warren will probably endorse him. If he can't catch up though, doing so only hurts her in getting things done with a Biden candidacy. I mean imagine Secretary of Education Elizabeth Warren or Secretary of Treasury Warren (Bloomberg would have a conniption, so I doubt she'd get that one). I don't think she'd endorse Biden until he secures the nomination (much like with Hillary), but she has to play politics here. I know people hate that, and I get it. But I'd much rather her actually get stuff done than endorse Bernie if his candidacy is doomed. She's probably told him that behind closed doors, and he probably gets it.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Also here's the hot take about "Not Me, Us"

If the "Me" is Bernie saying that the progressive movement is bigger than he is, then by extension the "Us" has to include progressives and liberals who aren't Bernie supporters! These people are not the enemy, they just don't like your guy.

The Us could include Warrenif shed join! She talks a big game about how she wants progressive policy, and she has a moment here to PROVE it.

Also related to dont like your guy, and reaching out to others to build a coalition. If you read a lot of Twitter, for all the talk of BernieBro venom, there is A LOT of people who somehow genuinely think Bernie is as bad or worse than Trump.

How are we supposed to respond or feel about that? It speaks to the anti-Bernie bias that the average plugged-in political person knows all about the Bros, but has no idea about the anti-Bros.


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DoomTheGyarados posted...

I just wish that they held the people they do like to higher standards.

Agreed, but by supporting literally any politician you are agreeing to overlook their most problematic elements for your vote. Criticism is fine and welcomed but keeping up that energy everywhere while remaining enthusiastic is hard.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

It's true. Like we literally have someone who has been proven to have lied about many things and it just doesn't matter to the media.

It's Biden.

If Bernie had lied about the same things, campaign over.

It's pretty much the exact problem Democrats face against Trump! I don't think I've ever seen a single Biden supporter acknowledge his numerous flaws even when they're pointed out.

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KamikazePotato posted...

It's pretty much the exact problem Democrats face against Trump! I don't think I've ever seen a single Biden supporter acknowledge his numerous flaws even when they're pointed out.

LotM does

"Oh yeah I don't like it... ... ... ... ... but policy tho."

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

The Us could include Warrenif shed join! She talks a big game about how she wants progressive policy, and she has a moment here to PROVE it.

Would a Biden endorsement in exchange for his concessions to implement more progressive policies not be a win for the movement? Not Bernie's movement - progressivism.

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Chris, what inspired you to unblock me? The Ulti discord saga?

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

If Bernie had lied about the same things, campaign over.

well, bernie's campaign is already over according to corrik and sephy

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Would a Biden endorsement in exchange for his concessions to implement more progressive policies not be a win for the movement? Not Bernie's movement - progressivism.

I would be OK with this btw. If Biden and Bernie could work out a deal where Bernie gets about 40% of what he wants in line with his votes and he gets to have some of the cabinet and some of his key issues pushed.

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Also on the subject of toxic supporters, people who think it only comes from Bernie's camp have clearly never spent longer than two seconds on twitter. I'll leave it at that.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Would a Biden endorsement in exchange for his concessions to implement more progressive policies not be a win for the movement? Not Bernie's movement - progressivism.

I would support this - my biggest issue being that I don't trust Biden to follow through on those concessions.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

How are we supposed to respond or feel about that? It speaks to the anti-Bernie bias that the average plugged-in political person knows all about the Bros, but has no idea about the anti-Bros.

You don't engage them. You don't respond to them. You don't have to get into it with everybody who doesn't like Bernie. I think that's part of the problem. People get offended way too quickly when it comes to politics.

Speaking of getting offended, can we at least agree that in this topic memes are hilarious and people shouldn't be afraid to post them?

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I have said this before, but I feel this nation owes a great debt to Bernie Sanders for the fights he has waged over the years. He has, almost by himself, shoved the national talk to the left the last 5 years and it has been painful. He is not my ideal pick for President. He is old, he is a bit too stubborn for anyone's good, and he insists on sticking with the democratic socialist thing when as Biden himself said if he never had called himself that no one would have really thought much of his ideas in a bad way.

The ideas matter more than the man 100%. The problem we face is the man is the only major figure fighting for these ideas with proper zeal. Warren has shown she won't. I get it, we can still like Warren, still think she is better than others, but at the end of the day she'll take the blood money to be "pragmatic."

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

I would be OK with this btw. If Biden and Bernie could work out a deal where Bernie gets about 40% of what he wants in line with his votes and he gets to have some of the cabinet and some of his key issues pushed.

This would be a great way to bridge that gap if Biden ends up winning the nomination. Do you think they'd actually be willing to make this agreement?

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Would a Biden endorsement in exchange for his concessions to implement more progressive policies not be a win for the movement? Not Bernie's movement - progressivism.

No, because those policies will never be implemented. We have a great phrase to describe them - dead on arrival!

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RaidenGarai posted...

This would be a great way to bridge that gap if Biden ends up winning the nomination. Do you think they'd actually be willing to make this agreement?

No.

Unfortunately. We saw last time just how much they were willing to change with the Unity commission.

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KamikazePotato posted...

I would support this - my biggest issue being that I don't trust Biden to follow through on those concessions.

Oh for sure, I'm not expecting for Biden to suddenly become an activist, but part of my optimism that a deal can be made is that in a Biden presidency the progressive wing of the party obtains more leverage, especially in the event of a Senate flip.

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TBH it would be more realistic for Bernie and AOC to go to Trump and strike a deal with him. The deal will be basically we implement the Green New Deal and pay for it by borrowing or printing money. And we build statues of Trump in every city center across the country.

But this deal has to be made while Trump feels he might lose the election, and an endorsement from the Left would be decisive.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Would a Biden endorsement in exchange for his concessions to implement more progressive policies not be a win for the movement? Not Bernie's movement - progressivism.

Arguably nowait wait let me explain!

In 2016, Bernie got an ENORMOUS amount of concessions from the DNC when he endorsed Hillary.

Then, Hillary lost, and the establishment, which is to say those in the Democratic Party with influence over the levers of control, almost universally blamed Bernie (and Comey, and Russia, but of the ones who are still relevant, Bernie).

Now, the Party is rallying around a candidate that I think is likely to lose again. I think with Burisma and his obvious mental decline, and the obvious if you have solutions for the country, why didnt you tell them to Obama line of attack, Biden is going to struggle.

Additionally, Biden has an extremely consistent record of reaching to his right. He literally cannot help himself, just 2 months ago even saying he was open to a GOP Vice President. So even if he WERE to pull it off and win, I think he is far more likely to cooperate with Republicans than with Berniecrats/Progressives.

So no, I would much rather Warren throw her hat to Bernie, and inevitably succeed him.

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I mean I've said it before and I'll stand by it. If Biden gets the nom, no matter who wins in November we will still have a a Republican president. Maybe not a conservative one, but a Republican nonetheless.

I think there are some areas where Biden will be pretty willing to be pushed left and others he wont be. Like obviously hes not gonna take up M4A, but I could totally see him going even bigger on climate (though please god dont make that in the form of dumb stuff thats actually actively bad like going anti-nuclear).

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MichelBollinger posted...

I mean I've said it before and I'll stand by it. If Biden gets the nom, no matter who wins in November we will still have a a Republican president. Maybe not a conservative one, but a Republican nonetheless.

We don't have a conservative president right now. And he is a Republican.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

I think there are some areas where Biden will be pretty willing to be pushed left and others he wont be. Like obviously hes not gonna take up M4A, but I could totally see him going even bigger on climate (though please god dont make that in the form of dumb stuff thats actually actively bad like going anti-nuclear).

He's already been pushed hard left on gun control with his promising to put Beto in charge, which is going to cost him a lot of votes. Good luck winning an election when you have gun confiscation on your platform.

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KamikazePotato posted...

Also on the subject of toxic supporters, people who think it only comes from Bernie's camp have clearly never spent longer than two seconds on twitter. I'll leave it at that.

it's def a bad idea to draw your conclusions about an electoral process based on what you see in the comments section

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MichelBollinger posted...

I mean I've said it before and I'll stand by it. If Biden gets the nom, no matter who wins in November we will still have a a Republican president. Maybe not a conservative one, but a Republican nonetheless.

I think you need to evaluate what makes a "Democrat" then, because Biden is as much of a standard bearer for the party as you can get.

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HashtagSEP posted...

I think Bernie has done a great job of disavowing it and saying it needs to stop

I think the reason Suprak got upset is because despite that, somebody was flat out pushing it/defending it/encouraging it in this very topic.

^
Bernie just keeps telling everyone to be cool and yet I see very not cool things on Twitter and Reddit constantly. I know this is a minority of Sanders supporters overall, but still I feel we should try and stop this as much as possible ESPECIALLY when aimed at someone we are no longer even competing with and whose base we desperately need to gobble up.

And beyond that, I like Tony. He's a fun guy and I love his passion. BUT BUT BUT I just saw one topic ago him push away a Warren supporter to Biden. And he can say "well if people cared about issues then fine but this and that" but here's the thing. People are people. Politics is more than just positions and you can pretend this stuff doesn't matter but it absolutely does.

We need to do better. Like I said, every Warren supporter we drive off who was on the fence is one less Sanders gets and he needs each and absolutely vote he can get now. He's at like...5% chance of winning now. We can't be throwing away potential supporters because "jeez not my fault they got mad" when, yeah, it kinda is.

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MichelBollinger posted...

I mean I've said it before and I'll stand by it. If Biden gets the nom, no matter who wins in November we will still have a a Republican president. Maybe not a conservative one, but a Republican nonetheless.

Uh dude you are mixing up Republican and conservative. Republicans are MORE conservative than typical "conservatives"

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Then, Hillary lost, and the establishment, which is to say those in the Democratic Party with influence over the levers of control, almost universally blamed Bernie (and Comey, and Russia, but of the ones who are still relevant, Bernie).

Now, the Party is rallying around a candidate that I think is likely to lose again. I think with Burisma and his obvious mental decline, and the obvious if you have solutions for the country, why didnt you tell them to Obama line of attack, Biden is going to struggle.

Additionally, Biden has an extremely consistent record of reaching to his right. He literally cannot help himself, just 2 months ago even saying he was open to a GOP Vice President. So even if he WERE to pull it off and win, I think he is far more likely to cooperate with Republicans than with Berniecrats/Progressives.

These are fair concerns! I'd say for Biden's electability, with his base being the ones who got turnout up I'd say he's looking more electable than he used to, though I am really damn worried he is just one major gaffe away from completely imploding.

And to your second point, yeah Biden's willingness to compromise with Rs is an issue and he has to be held accountable for it. I don't know how to do that if you don't deal with him - either by bargaining or by forcing him to choose between cooperating with the full Democratic party or with Republicans (who we know, but Biden doesn't know, will never accept terms anyways). The conservative dems do this shit all the time to get concessions and the progressives should too.

Finally yeah of course I'd rather Warren support Bernie outright - I'm just saying it isn't a lost cause if she doesn't.

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That wasn't remotely Tony's fault.

https://twitter.com/politics_polls/status/1235677617749188608?s=21

wow

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Heres the thing that gets me though, if she doesnt endorse Bernie they were 100% correct.

Not that shes a DNC plant, but that shes not with us.

But here's the thing. What if she does? And Sanders supporters have spent the past month poisoning the well with her supporters? What was that all for? All the hand wringing and nastiness when everyone knew Warren didn't have a shot and it was pointless to ground her into dust like that? AND when everyone was telling you "this is how campaigns work and she'll likely drop out after Super Tuesday anyway (which she did)". All that achieved is less votes for Sanders.

And even if she fails? Still go after her voters! They can be won over and tearing down the person they like most doesn't help. If she is a total failure (which I don't think she will be), primary her. Deal with it then. We have an election to try and win now and a scorched earth campaign against every other single democrat in the field doesn't help at all.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

https://twitter.com/politics_polls/status/1235677617749188608?s=21

wow

Rigged! Behold the power of bitterness.

Don't worry, Bernie supporters may be nicer people, but they aren't complete pushovers and a nice sizable percentage of them are going straight to Trump once their nomination has been stolen from them.

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Re gaffes hurting Biden, I certainly dont want to go overboard and say hes invincible or anything, but until this past week hes been a mediocre campaigner and debater, has a ton of gaffes, had the president of the United States leverage the powers of his office to manufacture a slime operation on him, and none of it hurt his polls in either the primary or in head to heads. The only thing that significantly hurt him was losing caucuses/primaries.

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Suprak the Stud posted...

We need to do better. Like I said, every Warren supporter we drive off who was on the fence is one less Sanders gets and he needs each and absolutely vote he can get now. He's at like...5% chance of winning now. We can't be throwing away potential supporters because "jeez not my fault they got mad" when, yeah, it kinda is.

My point was more that #IfNotMeUs, lol in the sense that Im 1 guy, and if youre open to the idea of being dissuaded from Bernie by a Bro, there are an innumerable amount of faceless and anonymous trolls who have already been and will continue to be used as a reason to not support him.

It turns out, when a candidate runs on the issues, anyone who cares less about issues than emotions is prime to be against you.

As an example, I point to Clyburn in South Carolina, who literally have an interview saying Biden talks too much policy and needs to focus on feeling.

Biden. Too much policy.

We absolutely cannot overcome that with OUR emotions, we have to speak to our base and hope its enough.


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