Current Events > Goddamn the UK's polls still don't close for another almost 3 hours

(+) Yeah! (+)

UK 2016: LOL TRUMP

UK 2019: ...uhhhh about that

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Tyranthraxus posted...

A wishy washy centrist with no identity besides "not the opponent"

This is clearly bollocks.

He isn't centrist. He also had a number of policies which were popular when people didn't associate them with him.

'Not the opponent' was very much the conservative line ever since Corbyn became leader of the labour party, which is a big part of his defeat.

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IloveJesus posted...

This is clearly bollocks.

He isn't centrist. He also had a number of policies which were popular when people didn't associate them with him.

'Not the opponent' was very much the conservative line ever since Corbyn became leader of the labour party, which is a big part of his defeat.

A lot of that comes from the massive disinformation campaign against him.

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"Everything bad you've heard about Johnson and the Tories is 100% true. Everything bad you've heard about Corbyn and Labour is a disinformation campaign."

That doesn't explain all the Labour MPs who quit to form their own party. That doesn't explain all the high-profile Labour members who have quit over dissatisfaction over the party's direction. That doesn't explain all of the internal strife and ethics issues that they have had to deal with over the last few years, nor their inability to come to consensus on where they should stand on brexit. That doesn't explain why all the other parties are unified in their agreement that corbyn should not become pm.

Labour has real issues, and pretending that every negative thing they've been dealing with is some sort of Psy Ops campaign shows a deep willingness to buy into conspiracy theories as long as they keep you from having to challenge your worldview.

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s0nicfan posted...

"Everything bad you've heard about Johnson and the Tories is 100% true. Everything bad you've heard about Corbyn and Labour is a disinformation campaign."

That doesn't explain all the Labour MPs who quit to form their own party. That doesn't explain all the high-profile Labour members who have quit over dissatisfaction over the party's direction. That doesn't explain all of the internal strife and ethics issues that they have had to deal with over the last few years, nor their inability to come to consensus on where they should stand on brexit. That doesn't explain why all the other parties are unified in their agreement that corbyn should not become pm.

Labour has real issues, and pretending that every negative thing they've been dealing with is some sort of Psy Ops campaign shows a deep willingness to buy into conspiracy theories as long as they keep you from having to challenge your worldview.

In fairness, a big part of the problem is that a number of labour mps aren't even remotely left wing.

Obviously, if you're a centrist, you aren't going to like that Corbyn was left wing. But then, if the party members have voted for him knowing full well that that's what he is, if you're an mp in that party and disagree with the direction set out by the members, the issue isn't the leader so much as you're in the wrong party. This did lead to an identity crisis in the party, but I feel like given the level of support Corbyn got from party members, the fault really lies with other mps trying to derail him rather than him.

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IloveJesus posted...

In fairness, a big part of the problem is that a number of labour mps aren't even remotely left wing.

Obviously, if you're a centrist, you aren't going to like that Corbyn was left wing. But then, if the party members have voted for him knowing full well that that's what he is, if you're an mp in that party and disagree with the direction set out by the members, the issue isn't the leader so much as you're in the wrong party. This did lead to an identity crisis in the party, but I feel like given the level of support Corbyn got from party members, the fault really lies with other mps trying to derail him rather than him.

I mean, what you're describing is the split between the blairites and corbynites that has nothing to do with disinformation and everything to do with corbyn and new members trying to pull the party further left and it has been in a long time. That sort of cultural shift is naturally going to result in a lot of unhappy members, and I think the votes played that out. What you're suggesting though, that the old members are in the "wrong party", implies that the direction corbyn was going in was the right one for the party, and four straight losses putting them in the worst position they've been in since the 1930s says otherwise.

But that's fine. It's perfectly reasonable to debate the direction the party should go in based on shifting ideals due to demographics differences between old and new members. That's completely different than claiming that some sort of coordinated disinformation campaign was specifically targeted against labor. The former is natural given the age of the party, the latter is pure conspiracy.

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s0nicfan posted...

That's completely different than claiming that some sort of coordinated disinformation campaign was specifically targeted against labor. The former is natural given the age of the party, the latter is pure conspiracy.

Are you trying to claim that something like this

https://time.com/5733786/conservative-fact-check-twitter/

Is not a "disinformation campaign"
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s0nicfan posted...

I mean, what you're describing is the split between the blairites and corbynites that has nothing to do with disinformation and everything to do with corbyn and new members trying to pull the party further left and it has been in a long time.

Sure. You're absolutely right.

That doesn't mean he wasn't demonized though. He very clearly was, and the press didn't do anywhere near enough to point out the failings of the Tories. Thing is, Corbyn should have anticipated that and should have responded accordingly but he never did.

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Bio1590 posted...

Are you trying to claim that something like this

https://time.com/5733786/conservative-fact-check-twitter/

Is not a "disinformation campaign"

It was certainly an attempt, but it was also widely criticized and highly publicized. Saying they lost due to a disinformation campaign implies, you know, it worked. It also implies that no other party had to deal with misleading campaign advertisements, which is just blatantly false.

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IloveJesus posted...

Sure. You're absolutely right.

That doesn't mean he wasn't demonized though. He very clearly was, and the press didn't do anywhere near enough to point out the failings of the Tories. Thing is, Corbyn should have anticipated that and should have responded accordingly but he never did.

See, that's where I disagree. The press has been portraying Johnson as a giant buffoon going back pretty much to his days as mayor, and in the week leading up to the election saw a number of old controversies from back when he was mayor dredged up as if it was new news. Even something as simple as which pictures to choose, where they picked the most disheveled one possible for Johnson, is evidence that he had plenty of opposition.

I'm not going to claim that it's a perfect one to one, mainly because I don't have access to a lot of the local papers in specific districts that might have been saying differently, but I don't think it's a fair statement to say that corbyn was criticized significantly more than Johnson, and certainly not in the weeks leading up to the election.

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s0nicfan posted...

The press has been portraying Johnson as a giant buffoon

Most of the time that he was portrayed as a buffoon it was done in such a way as to make him appear harmless, which is the image which he has spent years cultivating for himself. There are so many things he could have been attacked for that he either wasn't, or was but only in the most insignificant way.

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IloveJesus posted...

Most of the time that he was portrayed as a buffoon it was done in such a way as to make him appear harmless, which is the image which he has spent years cultivating for himself. There are so many things he could have been attacked for that he either wasn't, or was but only in the most insignificant way.

Arguing that the negative image that the media had constantly thrown in Johnson's face wasn't as negative as Corbyn's doesn't exactly make the case that the media was unfairly negative towards corbyn. And I would argue that the more recent comparisons to Trump were a lot more targeted and negative then him simply being harmless.

But either way, corbyn was never going to last forever. I think what will be most interesting is seeing who the party pushes forward as his replacement and whether they pick someone who is more center, or more left.

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s0nicfan posted...

Arguing that the negative image that the media had constantly thrown in Johnson's face wasn't as negative as Corbyn's doesn't exactly make the case that the media was unfairly negative towards corbyn. And I would argue that the more recent comparisons to Trump were a lot more targeted and negative then him simply being harmless.

I suppose the difference for me is that those comparisons to Trump seem completely justified. I suppose we just have to agree to disagree about that.

s0nicfan posted...

But either way, corbyn was never going to last forever. I think what will be most interesting is seeing who the party pushes forward as his replacement and whether they pick someone who is more center, or more left.

I don't think they'll be able to choose anybody that is more interesting than the fact that the UK has just completely and utterly fucked itself. I mean, it's terrible, but I can't deny that it's interesting.

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IloveJesus posted...

I suppose the difference for me is that those comparisons to Trump seem completely justified. I suppose we just have to agree to disagree about that.

*shrugs* I'm not saying none of the comparisons are justified. I'm just saying maybe some of Corbyn's criticisms were valid and some of Johnson's weren't, and as such things weren't so one sided as to be able to claim "the media" succeeded in some sort of character assassination specifically against Corbyn.

IloveJesus posted...

I don't think they'll be able to choose anybody that is more interesting than the fact that the UK has just completely and utterly fucked itself. I mean, it's terrible, but I can't deny that it's interesting.

I don't know that Labour would have been able to stop Brexit, Putting it to another referendum seemed like the "sneaky" way to cancel it, but given how this election went it might not have even come to a remain win. At the very least, all the markets rallying on the news of the results and the spike in value of the sterling is evidence that business at least prefers certainty over more waffling. But I also have more faith that the UK will be fine in the long run. They survived multiple world wars and existed just fine before the EU. There are plenty of other countries outside the EU that do business with them just fine, so I don't see brexit quite as the country-ending catastrophe as some do.

Edit: in summary, let me say that I wish all the best for the UK and hope they can bounce back from this, and that Labour finds a suitable replacement that accurately represents the needs of its constituents. And thank you for this refreshing and respectful back and forth.

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s0nicfan posted...

I don't know that Labour would have been able to stop Brexit, Putting it to another referendum seemed like the "sneaky" way to cancel it, but given how this election went it might not have even come to a remain win. At the very least, all the markets rallying on the news of the results and the spike in value of the sterling is evidence that business at least prefers certainty over more waffling. But I also have more faith that the UK will be fine in the long run. They survived multiple world wars and existed just fine before the EU. There are plenty of other countries outside the EU that do business with them just fine, so I don't see brexit quite as the country-ending catastrophe as some do.

As a remainer (still), I'm not sure even a remain win and/or the revocation of Article 50 would have put the genie back in the bottle. That wouldn't stop a Brexit supporting party (i.e. the Tories) putting Brexit in their manifesto to attract the significant number of Brexit supporters still out there. If the 2016 referendum can be ignored, then so can a subsequent one. Unless it's legally binding, but that would kick up a massive stink (if it could get through parliament). I don't know how that would work legally, since future governments can't be bound and the country essentially forced to remain in the EU in perpetuity.

Well, we don't need to think about that now lol.

s0nicfan posted...

*shrugs* I'm not saying none of the comparisons are justified. I'm just saying maybe some of Corbyn's criticisms were valid and some of Johnson's weren't, and as such things weren't so one sided as to be able to claim "the media" succeeded in some sort of character assassination specifically against Corbyn.

I don't know that Labour would have been able to stop Brexit, Putting it to another referendum seemed like the "sneaky" way to cancel it, but given how this election went it might not have even come to a remain win. At the very least, all the markets rallying on the news of the results and the spike in value of the sterling is evidence that business at least prefers certainty over more waffling. But I also have more faith that the UK will be fine in the long run. They survived multiple world wars and existed just fine before the EU. There are plenty of other countries outside the EU that do business with them just fine, so I don't see brexit quite as the country-ending catastrophe as some do.

Edit: in summary, let me say that I wish all the best for the UK and hope they can bounce back from this, and that Labour finds a suitable replacement that accurately represents the needs of its constituents. And thank you for this refreshing and respectful back and forth.

Although I was very much in favour of remaining in the EU, it's less the leaving that worries me and more another 5 years (and possibly more) under the conservatives. The country feels like it's at breaking point already in terms of education, healthcare and general poverty.

As for the respectful back and forth, I've never seen the point in trying to abuse people just because they don't agree with everything you say.

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Through pandering to the (very significant) remain voices inside Labour, Corbyn has just completely fucked up the genuine chance to take Britain out of the EU as prime minister. Potentially the ability to enact huge constitutional reform. I don't think I'd be wide of the mark to say that must have been one of his political dreams. Now it's gone forever, and the actual outcome of brexit could not have been any worse for him or the people the Labour party is supposed to represent. Absolute fucking disaster.

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