Current Events > SE fans love to blame square enix merger for FF going downhill yet...

(+) Yeah! (+)

Dragon Quest games are the great jrpg turn based experience they envision and enix just gets better at making them even as an entity in SE.

Funny that people on the square FF side think turn based is outdated and yet their fellow employees pump out dq11 to wide acclaim.

Hmm...

ff was always an off and on series to me
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FF seems like their change for sake of change series, which is pretty stupid.
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Dragon Quest survived the merger because they've been making the exact same game for two decades. Hard to break something when you don't even try to change it.

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Japan would riot if they changed Dragon Quest

s0nicfan posted...

Dragon Quest survived the merger because they've been making the exact same game for two decades. Hard to break something when you don't even try to change it.

You thought that sounded like a negative but instead you complimented them.

darkphoenix181 posted...

You thought that sounded like a negative but instead you complimented them.

There are lots of people who enjoy a plain burger, fries with no ketchup, and a vanilla milkshake on the same day of the week every day for their entire lives.

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s0nicfan posted...

There are lots of people who enjoy a plain burger, fries with no ketchup, and a vanilla milkshake on the same day of the week every day for their entire lives.

So dq11 is exactly like dq6?

No.

But it is a good dragon quest game unlike how you might compare ff6 to ffxiii.

darkphoenix181 posted...

So dq11 is exactly like dq6?

No.

But it is a good dragon quest game unlike how you might compare ff6 to ffxiii.

Hey, good on you for finding variety by having that plain burger medium well sometimes and medium other times. But let's not pretend the game isn't a template they just stamp every so many years with the same types of characters the exact same plot as the exact same art the exact same combat and the exact same music.

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s0nicfan posted...

Hey, good on you for finding variety by having that plain burger medium well sometimes and medium other times. But let's not pretend the game isn't a template they just stamp every so many years with the same types of characters the exact same plot as the exact same art the exact same combat and the exact same music.

So what kinda games do you like?
Ffxv?

But anyways, now dq is one of only a few making these tyoe games.

So funnily enough, dq is a big divergence from third person open world games that are everywhere.

Like you claim FF is making new things?

Last I checked a burger joint making good burgers saying "hey, everybody likes pho now, so lets make pho" isn't a winning idea.

You won't eat pho at said burger place cause it will not be good.
You will go to the place that makes great pho.

But eventually, you won't want pho anymore and will want a burger.

Ah but said burger place that made good burgers stopped making burgers and made pho cause they were too adventurous.

LightHawKnight posted...

FF seems like their change for sake of change series, which is pretty stupid.

Change is fine. No point in buying a new game that's the same as the last.

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Guide posted...

Change is fine. No point in buying a new game that's the same as the last.

You do all the time.

The irony is some games made by different companies and are different ips are more of the same.
But that is fine.

However, a series keeping to its formula and getting better? Oh my so stale!

Doesnt Armor Project have full creative control over the DQ series? SE literally cant meddle with it

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Alpha218 posted...

Doesnt Armor Project have full creative control over the DQ series? SE literally cant meddle with it

Oh? I did not know this.
Interesting.

Guide posted...

LightHawKnight posted...

FF seems like their change for sake of change series, which is pretty stupid.

Change is fine. No point in buying a new game that's the same as the last.

No it is not. The entire point of a series is that the games in said series is mostly the same.
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LightHawKnight posted...

No it is not. The entire point of a series is that the games in said series is mostly the same.

Our statements aren't mutually exclusive, depending on your definition of "mostly the same", and what changes are being considered.

After a certain point of refinement, there's no point to continuing a series as it is. Gears 3 has only had weaker sequels that make minute changes to a formula that was already perfect, thus resulting in a slightly worse product with no real purpose. Once SF2 reached a certain point of refinement, they moved on to a proper sequel: A new system that takes advantage of new technology with the wisdom of having worked on SF2 for so long.

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FF is a series that got worse when it transitioned to 3D imo.
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darkphoenix181 posted...

So what kinda games do you like?
Ffxv?

But anyways, now dq is one of only a few making these tyoe games.

So funnily enough, dq is a big divergence from third person open world games that are everywhere.

Let's look at what many people would consider the Golden Age of Final Fantasy, which is 6 through 10. Each of those games do have certain themes and elements that make them distinctly Final Fantasy, but they each have their own strong individual identity with unique characters, storylines, music, and significant differences in gameplay elements, some of which work better than others.

Dragon Quest games don't have an identity. They're just another Dragon Quest game.

Sure, sometimes Square screws up and you get a bad game, but that's the price of experimentation. You can't escape comfortable mediocrity if you never take any risks, but if you do you get memorable games with much beloved mechanics that are still distinct from each other.

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Smashingpmkns posted...

FF is a series that got worse when it transitioned to 3D imo.

Dq is 3d now

There are people who really like comfortable mediocrity, and they are mediocre and comfortable, and I wish they would all walk into the sea.

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Guide posted...

There are people who really like comfortable mediocrity, and they are mediocre and comfortable, and I wish they would all walk into the sea.

Would you not explain the latest FF as mediocre?

You claim to hate mediocrity but defend a series that makes mediocre games because they change just to shake things up.

Smashingpmkns posted...

FF is a series that got worse when it transitioned to 3D imo.

Highly disagree on this. PS1 era FF is best era imo and PS1 was Square's best library of games in general

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darkphoenix181 posted...

Would you not explain the latest FF as mediocre?

You claim to hate mediocrity but defend a series that makes mediocre games because they change just to shake things up.

A series that is sometimes mediocre versus a series that is always, consistently, by design mediocre.

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Dragon Quest is, and has always been better.
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s0nicfan posted...

A series that is sometimes mediocre versus a series that is always, consistently, by design mediocre.

What is mediocre about dq11?

For many it was their first dq and they now are a dq fan because it was the opposite of what you say.

I havent played a Dragon Quest since the game boy color but good on them for keeping it a turn based game and not chasing the ADHD casual crowd

darkphoenix181 posted...

What is mediocre about dq11?

For many it was their first dq and they now are a dq fan because it was the opposite of what you say.

I've elaborated on what makes it mediocre like half a dozen times now, but we've already established that "this game is identical to every other game in the series" is a selling point to you, so there's no point in arguing. I'm not saying you can't enjoy your plain burger, but don't pretend it isn't old, tired crap.

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s0nicfan posted...

I've elaborated on what makes it mediocre like half a dozen times now, but we've already established that "this game is identical to every other game in the series" is a selling point to you, so there's no point in arguing. I'm not saying you can't enjoy your plain burger, but don't pretend it isn't old, tired crap.

It is not identical. I already pointed that out.

darkphoenix181 posted...

It is not identical. I already pointed that out.

You didn't, though. You just said "no" and left it at that. But sure, I'll humor you. Explain the differences between the most recent game and the 2 that came before it. We can compare those differences to FF6, FF7, and FF10 (all beloved FF games) and see how those differences measure up.

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dragon quest is trash

FF's recent issues are entirely to do with production problems. FFXV was barely "finished", basically made twice, and had staff shuffling around the whole time. Big expectations take a toll.
FFVII thankfully seems to have less of those issues. It helps that the story is already set. That's going to be the test if SE can still make a modern FF game and hopefully help them transition into the future.
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DarthAragorn posted...

I havent played a Dragon Quest since the game boy color but good on them for keeping it a turn based game and not chasing the ADHD casual crowd

That's because the series only does well in Japan, so they have to cater to the Japanese with the series. They tried modernizing Dragon Quest 9 in 2006 and the backlash was terrible when it was revealed to be an action game in the prototype. They re-hauled the whole system and went back to the roots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0smdaQL6Mlg

You can skip to 1:30 and watch from there. The Japanese fans weren't happy, but if the game was big enough outside of Japan, this system probably would have remained.
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The decline of SE, and Squaresoft before the merger, can be charted with how much increasing influence Nomura has gained over time.
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wasn't the merger actually about Enix buying the bankrupt Square anyway?
Square fanboys are in denial that their beloved company has fallen from grace.

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Ricemills posted...

wasn't the merger actually about Enix buying the bankrupt Square anyway?
Square fanboys are in denial that their beloved company has fallen from grace.

Yep. And IIRC, Square put too too too much money in Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within and killed themselves in their expectations.
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Sayoria posted...

Yep. And IIRC, Square put too too too much money in Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within and killed themselves in their expectations.

and then they try to fix their image by creating FFVII advent children.
which works for publicity, but not financially. iirc until this day they still refuse to release the info on it's full financial detail.

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I'd say the biggest problem is an out of control production. If nothing else, FF Versus XIII (that thing FFXV started as) is a shining example of this.

As for Dragon Quest, that series doesn't have problems because it's the codifier of generic turn based JRPG, which is will unlikely ever drift from. In fact, Enix was always more of a publisher than a developer, so the impact of "their half" in the merger, is mostly irrelevant.

Sayoria posted...

Yep. And IIRC, Square put too too too much money in Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within and killed themselves in their expectations.

Supposedly it was already in the works as a way for Enix to expand their market share outside Japan, given how much better Square Soft did internationally, though Spirits Within did create some hesitation.

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darkphoenix181 posted...

Would you not explain the latest FF as mediocre?

You claim to hate mediocrity but defend a series that makes mediocre games because they change just to shake things up.

Which FF? FF15 is absolute trash, and the thing is that they didn't really shake anything up. New tech to replicate old types of gameplay in worse ways; gameplay new to the series, but old to games as a whole. The thing is, that didn't happen from "just trying to shake things up", that was a whole mess of corporate interference. Really quite a sad story for the initial design lead.

If you mean the FF7 Remake: It looks good.

What I'm attacking is maintaining mediocrity for the sake of comfort; I have much more respect for a game that at least tried something new, even if the execution failed.

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