Current Events > IMO Americans just need to learn to like taxes (not just on the rich)

(+) Yeah! (+)

America actually has pretty progressive taxes compared to the rest of the developed world. But the result of that is that we don't raise much tax revenue compared to the rest of the world. That means we redistribute less income than the rest of the world, which combined with a work-focused safety net, means we have a lot more poverty than the rest of the world.

FWIW, one reason our tax system looks progressive is that we use it to redistribute income in the form of the EITC and CTC. Most other countries just have cash allowances (not tied to working and income taxes the way we do)

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I mean yes, but it wouldn't be simple. Any significant increase in taxes would have to come with a noticeable and probably fairly significant increase in quality of life. If taxes go up and nothing changes people are going to be rightly pissed.
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Honestly I'm kind of done pretending we need to be more like Europe. Europe needs to be more like us.

We've got more wealth than all of Europe combined. We created GPS. We created the internet. We split the atom. We put men on the moon. We put robots on mars. We have Facebook. Apple. Microsoft. Amazon. Tesla.

All our largest companies produce technology that radically changes how the world works. All the largest companies in Europe are either car companies or oil companies.

We are far less reliant on tourism than most other developed countries.
We have less homelessness and poverty than some of the most progressive EU countries.
We have fewer jobless than most EU countries.
We have kids going to college at a higher rate than Germany, where college is free.

Is the US perfect? No. Our health system is a mess, we keep shooting children, and our military bleeds money. But Europe isn't some golden paradise, either. And people need to stop pretending it is. The have the same problems as we do at nearly the same rates (minus a few exceptions), and in exchange their industries have been ravaged.

So no, we don't need to "get used to taxes." We need to encourage STEM, innovate to overcome inefficiencies, patch the problems we have with better laws, and do what we've done as a country for the couple hundred years: completely dominate.
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taxation is theft
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s0nicfan posted...

Honestly I'm kind of done pretending we need to be more like Europe. Europe needs to be more like us.

In what way specifically? You listed a lot of things we've done but absolutely no policies that explain why we did so (except the implication that low taxes are involved)

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Also I didn't specify europe or pretend the developed world is without problems, just to throw that out that

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Balrog0 posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Honestly I'm kind of done pretending we need to be more like Europe. Europe needs to be more like us.

In what way specifically? You listed a lot of things we've done but absolutely no policies that explain why we did so (except the implication that low taxes are involved)

The reason the US is the center of so much of this is because we don't tax companies into oblivion. The few countries in Europe that don't either (Ireland being the best example) ALSO just happen to be growing tech havens.

I'm not saying it's all down to taxes, but I don't think Europe is trying very hard to attract talent outside of having good social services, and I think it's because they're not competitive in terms of work ethic and in terms of financial incentives. Companies just have little reason to put in the extra effort in the EU. Conversely, I think the EU does a much better job of funding fundamental research in science fields using government dollars, which is why many of the most recent advances in our understanding of subatomic particles have been out of the EU.

There's just too many questions that need answering. Why don't germans go to college as much as americans when its free? Why are there more homeless in France than in the US as a percentage of the population? Why when we talk Europe do we ignore Greece's borderline insolvency or all of Eastern Europe's financial struggles? So often I feel like when people say "Europe" what they mean is "Germany", because if you really include all of the EU in comparisons... the numbers just don't add up.

Balrog0 posted...

Also I didn't specify europe or pretend the developed world is without problems, just to throw that out that

Okay. So when you say developed world who were you considering outside of the EU? You compared us to the "developed world" but then said we have a lot more poverty than "the rest of the world" which I'd argue is objectively untrue unless you're doing a flat headcount. Like I said, as a percentage of the population, poverty/homelessness/etc in the US is right in line with the developed world. Only we have ALL THAT OTHER stuff they don't.
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Corporate taxes and individual taxes are very different discussions imo. The corporate income tax rate should ideally be at or near 0%.
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Less taxes pls
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I'm talking about OECD countries fwiw, not Europe broadly or exclusively. And iid argue that we have high business taxes for the same anti-tax sentiments we have otherwise low taxes (because rich people are easy to scapegoat)

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s0nicfan posted...

Why don't germans go to college as much as americans when its free?

Isn't that due to how Germany does their education system. Correct me if I'm wrong, but kids are pretty much put on a vocational or college path at a relatively young age. While college is free, it's not a path for many.

I remember hearing about how Germany does it and I can't say I liked it.
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Why would any self respecting individual want to earn less so that the government could spend that earned income on programs that benefit others? There is a bare minimum of taxation we should pursue but life is too short to just be happy about the government owning the output of four entire months' worth of work.

I dont know why I should learn to like taxes when I disagree with the overwhelming majority of what the government does anyway.
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Americans need to learn to not just buy a new car and new furniture or vacations or whatever else and KEEP their income tax refund to make life more smoother for the rest of the year.

But seriously though, what kind of sick person would be glad to go work for four months and have the government take that all away and push it through lossy inefficient middlemen?

And who in their right mind would want more of this?

pls posted...

Why would any self respecting individual want to earn less so that the government could spend that earned income on programs that benefit others? There is a bare minimum of taxation we should pursue but life is too short to just be happy about the government owning the output of four entire months' worth of work.

It's an efficient way to transfer factor income to those who don't have factors (capital, labor, land)

tennisdude818 posted...

I dont know why I should learn to like taxes when I disagree with the overwhelming majority of what the government does anyway.

Yeah that's the problem

HasaDiga posted...

Americans need to learn to not just buy a new car and new furniture or vacations or whatever else and KEEP their income tax refund to make life more smoother for the rest of the year.

Those refunds are inflated by said EITC/CTC

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Balrog0 posted...

It's an efficient way to transfer factor income to those who don't have factors (capital, labor, land)

It's not our obligation to work so that others can benefit from it. Beyond the bare minimum of services needed to ensure national security, like roads and a military, IDGAF.

Put those people to work on infrastructure projects if they want income.

Move as many social programs as possible to the state level. Possibly municipal or county level.

As an Australian I'm more than happy to pay my taxes. I earn 85k AUD (about 58.3k USD) a year and pay about 25k (17.1k USD) of that to the tax man. Totally worth it imo.
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pls posted...

But seriously though, what kind of sick person would be glad to go work for four months and have the government take that all away and push it through lossy inefficient middlemen?

And who in their right mind would want more of this?

That's where you're wrong chief. Things like SNAP/CTC/EITC/child allowances are much more efficient than private action has ever been in addressing poverty. Probably even broadly accounting for all the evil government does, but definitely on a naive basis

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pls posted...

It's not our obligation to work so that others can benefit from it. Beyond the bare minimum of services needed to ensure national security, like roads and a military, IDGAF.

Put those people to work on infrastructure projects if they want income.

H
Those are the least useful parts of government most in need of cutbacks and marketization.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Move as many social programs as possible to the state level. Possibly municipal or county level.

Oh yes our devolved form of federalism is very much to blame for our problems

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Balrog0 posted...

Oh yes our devolved form of federalism is very much to blame for our problems

Okay, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, this time.

F
U
C
K

that

Questionmarktarius posted...

Okay, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, this time.

That's what I'm going for lol

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Balrog0 posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

I dont know why I should learn to like taxes when I disagree with the overwhelming majority of what the government does anyway.

Yeah that's the problem

What? The problem is that Im a libertarian?
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tennisdude818 posted...

What? The problem is that Im a libertarian?

Almost no one likes the government or agrees with it, not just libertarians

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Libertarians don't even have the monopoly on self-identified anti-government sentiment

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Balrog0 posted...

Libertarians don't even have the monopoly on self-identified anti-government sentiment

Libertarians don't even have a monopoly on libertarians. There's more genres and subgenres and sub-subgenres than heavy metal music.

I don't remember the exact numbers, but people were polled on whether they think X (e.g. education) should receive more funding, less funding, or the same and then were asked the same question about taxes overall.

Basically for every program (except foreign aid) a majority of people supported them getting more funding/taxes, but also a majority of people thought taxes should be generally lowered.
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Anteaterking posted...

Basically for every program (except foreign aid) a majority of people supported them getting more funding/taxes, but also a majority of people thought taxes should be generally lowered.

Altruism by proxy.
"I'm helping by demanding that guy pay for it!"

tennisdude818 posted...

Balrog0 posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

I dont know why I should learn to like taxes when I disagree with the overwhelming majority of what the government does anyway.

Yeah that's the problem

What? The problem is that Im a libertarian?

hes saying that if your government wasnt so shit people wouldnt hate tax so much
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Jack up the tax rate to 90%

We'll learn to like it

Balrog0 posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

What? The problem is that Im a libertarian?

Almost no one likes the government or agrees with it, not just libertarians

Thats not true. Most disagree with part of what the government does, but not the majority of it.

But is your beef really with libertarians who disagree with most of your worldview? Or big spending leftists who want as much coercion in society as you do, but without using current tax receipts to pay for it?
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Ryuko_Chan posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

Balrog0 posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

I dont know why I should learn to like taxes when I disagree with the overwhelming majority of what the government does anyway.

Yeah that's the problem

What? The problem is that Im a libertarian?

hes saying that if your government wasnt so shit people wouldnt hate tax so much

Tough luck then. Thats not changing in our lifetimes.
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tennisdude818 posted...

Thats not true. Most disagree with part of what the government does, but not the majority of it.

Unless you equate libertarianism specifically with an caps its contestable whether this is actually true of libertarians broadly. But actual leftists (not Nordic model supporters) hate this logic as much as you do.

tennisdude818 posted...

But is your beef really with libertarians who disagree with most of your worldview? Or big spending leftists who want as much coercion in society as you do, but without using current tax receipts to pay for it?

I think you framing of the question, which equates taxation with coercion (though i understand you'd insist that you think coercion isn't synonymous with taxation) demonstrates why my position isn't popular with extremists on either side of the spectrum actually

I want to regulate a lot less and redistribute a lot more, which satisfies no one

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Balrog0 posted...

I want to regulate a lot less and redistribute a lot more, which satisfies no one

Push for more contraception then, less birth rate constricts the labor supply which increases wages

pls posted...

Push for more contraception then, less birth rate constricts the labor supply which increases wages

i do stuff for local planned parenthood so i sorta do this

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It's not every day I get to dig up Monty Python's Dennis Moore skit...
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2nrqgb

This board was much better when Proudclad was gone
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waot who is proudclad now

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Questionmarktarius posted...

Altruism by proxy.
"I'm helping by demanding that guy pay for it!"

It really came down to the majorities for each thing being made up of different people.

Essentially you can construct a consistent world where people support a tax neutral change to overall funding, while each thing is supported by a majority to get more taxes.
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how about we allocate our existing taxes better and stop trying to take more from our wallets to make up for gross administrative inefficiencies
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Balrog0 posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

Thats not true. Most disagree with part of what the government does, but not the majority of it.

Unless you equate libertarianism specifically with an caps its contestable whether this is actually true of libertarians broadly. But actual leftists (not Nordic model supporters) hate this logic as much as you do.

tennisdude818 posted...

But is your beef really with libertarians who disagree with most of your worldview? Or big spending leftists who want as much coercion in society as you do, but without using current tax receipts to pay for it?

I think you framing of the question, which equates taxation with coercion (though i understand you'd insist that you think coercion isn't synonymous with taxation) demonstrates why my position isn't popular with extremists on either side of the spectrum actually

I want to regulate a lot less and redistribute a lot more, which satisfies no one

The Ron Paul campaign was the most highly visible and unified libertarians have been in a long time. I'd say they disagreed with most of what government does. As for the LP in 2019, I honestly have no idea.

Even conservatarians like Ben Shapiro understand that government is coercion when they call it the "gun in the room". He's not an extremist. The disagreement is just around where the ends justify the means. You for example think that the ends justify the means to force people at gun point to pay other's bills. That's a very common position to hold, but it's counterproductive to pretend that it's not coercion. Well, unless you think that hiding the iron hand with a velvet glove will make your position more attractive.
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TheMikh posted...

how about we allocate our existing taxes better and stop trying to take more from our wallets to make up for gross administrative inefficiencies

That completely goes against the nature of government.
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The problem I have with higher taxes is how inefficiently government is at spending money. Governments core competency is creating bureaucracy , not value.
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TheMikh posted...

how about we allocate our existing taxes better and stop trying to take more from our wallets to make up for gross administrative inefficiencies

This, too. 50% of our budget is entitlements, in part because we pay like 4X in medical costs for everything. Make an aspirin cost an aspirin and maybe we'll have enough surplus budget to fix the rest.
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tennisdude818 posted...

That completely goes against the nature of government.

Then government needs to be redone in order to maximize efficiency.

Any waste or fat needs to be cut, period.
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Balrog0 posted...

waot who is proudclad now

That "pls" account is him
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