Current Events > Who are considered the best characters in Smash Ultimate?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I mean...by the top-tier experts at the game?
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Hero is being seen as very high right now.

Pikachu and Joker are pretty high too.
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Joker, Snake, Palutena, Inkling, probably still Olimar, Pikachu, Peach, etc

There isn't really much of a consensus on who the best of the best are, just a general 10-15 list that people will tend to agree are all in the conversation

Jeff AKA Snoopy posted...

Hero is being seen as very high right now.

I don't think there's much of a consensus on him at all yet. Lot of people think he's probably not that special, just annoying because of the RNG shenanigans
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Hero is basically Deadly once he is edge guarding
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If the RNG gives him Magic Burst yeah he basically gets a free stock against most characters, but without the RNG's favour he's a lot more mundane. Charged side B is still a pretty lethal ledge trap option but it's not the blatant fuck you Magic Burst is
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It's crazy to think Palutena went from bottom tier to top tier
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Turbam posted...

It's crazy to think Palutena went from bottom tier to top tier

I'm curious, did that happen with any other characters? Or the reverse - top to bottom?
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According to Zero's tier list from a month ago, top tier in order of best to worst was:

Pikachu
Joker
Snake
Peach/Daisy
Inkling
Lucina
Fox
Wolf
Olimar
Wario
Zero Suit Samus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsu2BFEPoz8" data-time="

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pegusus123456 posted...

Turbam posted...

It's crazy to think Palutena went from bottom tier to top tier

I'm curious, did that happen with any other characters? Or the reverse - top to bottom?

Few characters have ever fallen from grace the way Kirby did from 64 to Melee. From second best in the game to a piece of garbage so dysfunctional that it's entirely possible for him to kill himself trying to use his back or forward throw on an opponent who breaks out without taking damage
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Some guy did an average of pros tier lists and here is the result for this month:
https://imgur.com/hkp78f8

Also this tier list by 5 Japanese pros is pretty out there but cool:
https://imgur.com/w9lPrgU

Seeing link so high is great. He's really underappreciated in North America but the Japanese have a high opinion of him.

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Haven't played in a while, off the top of my head in no order

Pikachu
Joker
Pichu
Wolf
Peach/Daisy
Inkling
Fox

Snake and Palutena are up there but have small flaws you can exploit more easily than the above mentioned.

Edit: yeah those lists are fairly accurate for the most part.
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Xenozoa425 posted...

Haven't played in a while, off the top of my head in no order

Pikachu
Joker
Pichu
Wolf
Peach/Daisy
Inkling
Fox

Snake and Palutena are up there but have small flaws you can exploit more easily than the above mentioned.

Edit: yeah those lists are fairly accurate for the most part.

Snake is generally considered top 3 in this game. This isn't the early days when people were sleeping on him.

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Conflict posted...

pegusus123456 posted...

Or the reverse - top to bottom?

Bayonetta

ZSS and Sheik also aren't anything special now either

ZSS is literally one of the best characters in the game
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Lucina, Pikachu, Inkling, Joker, Peach/Daisy, Wolf

are all characters I see at the top of tier lists
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https://imgur.com/w9lPrgU
3.1 tier list by 5 japanese pros (so it's missing the latest patch)
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I feel like Fox has pretty trash hitboxes now. I was ok with him in Smash 4 but Ultimate I can't stand using him now. Wolf is better.
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https://imgur.com/w9lPrgU
I agree with this for the most part though Pokemon trainer should just be Ivysaur.

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Choco posted...

https://imgur.com/w9lPrgU
3.1 tier list by 5 japanese pros (so it's missing the latest patch)

That's so different than your average Western tier list. Like having Link on top of high tier, freaking Inkling in the bottom of high tier, Snake, Palu and Pikachu in high tier, ZSS being in the top of top tier. Also Tink over Yink.
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Anyone who tells you Hero is very high tier is not someone to be listened to
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Doe posted...

Anyone who tells you Hero is very high tier is not someone to be listened to

Salem did pretty well with an almost solo hero at Smash Con. That's not accounting that he wasn't using the fireball spell enough and I think his Hero could still be further optimized.

Remember he's only been out for less than two weeks.
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Piplup_Sniper posted...

Doe posted...

Anyone who tells you Hero is very high tier is not someone to be listened to

Salem did pretty well with an almost solo hero at Smash Con. That's not accounting that he wasn't using the fireball spell enough and I think his Hero could still be further optimized.

Remember he's only been out for less than two weeks.

Salem could do pretty well with almost any character let alone one people are still learning the matchup to
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Conflict posted...

pegusus123456 posted...

Or the reverse - top to bottom?

Bayonetta

ZSS and Sheik also aren't anything special now either

uhh what game are you playing

ZSS is amazing
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ZSS is really underappreciated in the West. Japan in general thinks she's the best character in the game since they have a lot of top level ZSS running around. Over here in the West people underrated her because she lost some of her jank from sm4sh but Marss has been showing she's still an amazing character even if people still underrate her.
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Delirious_Beard posted...

Conflict posted...

pegusus123456 posted...

Or the reverse - top to bottom?

Bayonetta

ZSS and Sheik also aren't anything special now either

uhh what game are you playing

ZSS is amazing

This.

She might not be top 5 or even top 10 anymore but she's still great. Marss in particular has been having alot of success with her, even being one of the few people that has beaten MkLeo's Joker (which was also the Grand Finals of that particular tournament). Not to mention she's had alot of success over in Japan.

Srk700 posted...

She might not be top 5 or even top 10 anymore

Oh she is.
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Godnorgosh posted...

Jeff AKA Snoopy posted...

Hero is being seen as very high right now.

Not really. Hero has already been found to have significant weaknesses like bad air speed and bad frame data and hitboxes for his normals. We'll have to see tourney results, and he hasn't had any notable ones yet. He struggles against rushdown characters for sure.

I think it's a bit too soon to actually start saying Hero is bad. He has weaknesses, yes, but at the same time people were writting off Joker as a slightly better Lucario during his first month of release. I remember Leffen saying on stream that he thought Joker was a mid tier character and that none of his combos were true or something and I remember people were writting off his gun as a bad move. It took mkleo to actually show just how much potential a highly optimized joker possesses but even that took time since his first tournament with Joker he placed like 33rd at Umebura in Japan.

Right know some notable people playing Hero are Ryuga and Salem. We'll see how they can advance the Hero meta.
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Godnorgosh posted...

Piplup_Sniper posted...

I think it's a bit too soon to actually start saying Hero is bad.

I didn't. But it's definitely early to say he's "very high."

My bad. I misread your post.
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Slaya4 posted...

https://imgur.com/w9lPrgU
I agree with this for the most part though Pokemon trainer should just be Ivysaur.

Except the best PT main in the world uses Squirtle far more than Ivysaur. Don't be a meme
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Glad to see recognition of Toon Link there
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pegusus123456 posted...

I'm curious, did that happen with any other characters? Or the reverse - top to bottom?

kirby was fucking stupid in 64 and he got meganerfed and never really recovered
mario and luigi were typically pretty bad but in 4 and ultimate they're actually pretty good
link is finally pretty legitimately good in ultimate, with a good recovery for the first time
game & watch was pretty bad in melee despite his strengths, getting decently buffed in brawl, nerfed down to mediocre in the next game, and now he's just actually pretty damn good and considered high-tier
pokemon trainer lost its glaring weaknesses and is now one of the best in the game

there's a ton of examples i haven't named as well
there's a lot of big changes in the quality of characters in ultimate, with a lot of long-time bad characters being buffed quite significantly (except for kirby for some reason)
the only people who are still bad even with all the updates are k rool and little mac, probably (plant's not great but it has a healthy amount of buffs and once its playerbase finally grows there might be something seen)
honestly, a ton of good characters in melee got hugely nerfed in brawl due to all the changes to the engine, and a few low-tiers like game & watch maanged to actually get buffed for it

sheik flip-flops every time (good in melee, bad in brawl, good in for[system], bad in ultimate)
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Illuminoius posted...

the only people who are still bad even with all the updates are k rool

I remember everyone complaining about him being OP when he was released. Did he get nerfed or did people just learn to play around him?
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people just got better at the game

k rool is actually buffed from release but he's still pretty bad

It depends on how good the player is with a character
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I want Brawl Kirby back, most fun version of him

its amazing that kirby's recovery is pretty garbage in comparison to several characters with only 2 jumps

How's Sonic? Still shit I bet because Sakurai's anasshole who didn't give him any kill moves whatsoever and now he's not even the fastest in the game anymore that title belongs to Hero with his zoom active and Ridely's side b drag attack
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Sonic is...very mediocre. hes basically Sm4sh Sonic, but his gameplan is about 1/4 effective. Wario is pretty much a better version of him

What's great about Joker? Is it really only that Arsene thing that keeps him relevant? Or is base Joker alot better than I think? It's like he's a wet noodle
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Illuminoius posted...

k rool is actually buffed from release

what? he got nerfed
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tremain07 posted...

How's Sonic? Still shit I bet because Sakurai's anasshole who didn't give him any kill moves whatsoever and now he's not even the fastest in the game anymore that title belongs to Hero with his zoom active and Ridely's side b drag attack

imagine calling someone an asshole because of sth like this lmfao
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pegusus123456 posted...

I remember everyone complaining about him being OP when he was released. Did he get nerfed or did people just learn to play around him?

It's the same as Little Mac in 3DS/Wii U, he's a beginner killer, but once everyone knows their weakness they're awful. At the time of release, people don't really know how to play and just spammed strong attacks, then people complained about dying at low percentages. Especially when that spam happens online where it's easier to hit people. I remember people saying that Little Mac ruined online play.

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