Current Events > Boy kicked out of class for arguing with teacher about number of genders

(+) Yeah! (+)

BignutzisBack posted...

Torrific posted...

Jerry_Hellyeah posted...

You know, just for shits and giggles, someone name a few genders for me.

Here's one: Non-binary demi-fluid pan-sexual androgyne

Here's another: Attack Helicopter

And you wonder why no one takes your bald ass seriously.
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Kickflip posted...

Kickflip posted...

I'm queer af and get all of the different sexualities and stuff, but a proper explanation of the more than two gender things would be nice. I don't mean that in a confrontational way, I'm just genuinely curious. Like, non-binary just sounds like a rejection of the two genders, but not a gender itself. Transgenderism is a person identifying with one of the 2 genders is it not? It's just that they don't identify with the one they were born as.

Wait, scratch that. I think I'm mixing gender and sex up. Gender is just the identifier and there can be non-binary kinds (although I do think NB doesn't really tell you anything and you should be more specific)

I stopped reading the topic after this.

This is what a lot of people confuse:

There are more than 2 genders. There are only two sexes.

Sex and gender are not the same. That's why "Gender Reveals" drive me crazy - they're "Sex Reveals".
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CyricZ posted...

The_Ivory_Man posted...

What about gender is a spectrum?

Are women who wear jeans and flannel less of a woman than one who wears dresses all the time?

Are you saying that certain men are less manly than others because of their hobbies or the way they talk?

It's about identity, and not everyone will fall cleanly into the more common "male" or "female". See for example: Asia Kate Dillon.

No.

And also no.

But even if they don't fall cleanly into one of those categories or another, they're not mentioning another gender. If you say that you're both a man and a woman or you're neither a man or a woman, you're still saying that those are the only genders. So if I'm getting this right then a person is either a man, a woman, both, or neither. I don't see how neither counts as a gender so that just leaves the other 3. So I guess everyone is way over-complicating this.
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scar the 1 posted...

Omega Hunter posted...

If you think you can say that there are more than 2 genders because hermaphrodites exist. Than we can no longer say humans have 10 fingers because my nephew was born with 11.

The left have lost their minds. That teacher should never be allowed to "teach" again.

Exhibit A: Poster is well aware that there's a demarcation between sex and gender, and ignores it on purpose. This is not the argument of someone interested in discussion, it's the argument of someone who wants to rile up the other side and make them look bad.

It's the argument of someone who cycles between posting for a few days to a week and going to purgatory for months.
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@sktgamer_13dude posted...

BignutzisBack posted...

Torrific posted...

Jerry_Hellyeah posted...

You know, just for shits and giggles, someone name a few genders for me.

Here's one: Non-binary demi-fluid pan-sexual androgyne

Here's another: Attack Helicopter

And you wonder why no one takes your bald ass seriously.

Aww you gonna have another meltdown again? :)
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Feline_Heart posted...

you're still saying that those are the only genders.

No, they're saying that those are the endpoints of the gender spectrum.
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BignutzisBack posted...

@sktgamer_13dude posted...

BignutzisBack posted...

Torrific posted...

Jerry_Hellyeah posted...

You know, just for shits and giggles, someone name a few genders for me.

Here's one: Non-binary demi-fluid pan-sexual androgyne

Here's another: Attack Helicopter

And you wonder why no one takes your bald ass seriously.

Aww you gonna have another meltdown again? :)

Why revel in posting transphobic stuff
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If teachers don't respect science, they're not teachers. They're brainwashers.
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CyricZ posted...

Feline_Heart posted...

you're still saying that those are the only genders.

No, they're saying that those are the endpoints of the gender spectrum.

.... youre saying the exact same thing. You can either be a man, a woman, or varying degrees of both. Thats 3
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CyricZ posted...

It's about identity, and not everyone will fall cleanly into the more common "male" or "female". See for example: Asia Kate Dillon.

So what makes someone not male or not female then, what doesn't make them fall cleanly?
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Feline_Heart posted...

CyricZ posted...

Feline_Heart posted...

you're still saying that those are the only genders.

No, they're saying that those are the endpoints of the gender spectrum.

.... youre saying the exact same thing. You can either be a man, a woman, or varying degrees of both. Thats 3

That's like looking at a number line between 1 to 10 and suggesting that there are only three numbers: 1, 10, and all the numbers in between.
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The_Ivory_Man posted...

CyricZ posted...

It's about identity, and not everyone will fall cleanly into the more common "male" or "female". See for example: Asia Kate Dillon.

So what makes someone not male or not female then, what doesn't make them fall cleanly?

Their own brain, with regards to perceptions and self-identity.
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There are either no genders or infinite genders (aka, no genders)

Two sexes for sure.

I am a man, with a penis and I enjoy the company of women. I have a wife and a child.

But I can also throw on a dress, color my room in pink, and watch Drag Race til I fall asleep on my Sailor Moon sheets scrolling through Pinterest.

What the hell determines your gender? Men can do whatever they want, Women can do whatever they want, so why the need to identify as either?
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Pukelid posted...

BignutzisBack posted...

@sktgamer_13dude posted...

BignutzisBack posted...

Torrific posted...

Jerry_Hellyeah posted...

You know, just for shits and giggles, someone name a few genders for me.

Here's one: Non-binary demi-fluid pan-sexual androgyne

Here's another: Attack Helicopter

And you wonder why no one takes your bald ass seriously.

Aww you gonna have another meltdown again? :)

Why revel in posting transphobic stuff

I fully support trans rights, what I dont support is this make believe gender fluid fantasy trying to piggyback
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CyricZ posted...

Feline_Heart posted...

CyricZ posted...

Feline_Heart posted...

you're still saying that those are the only genders.

No, they're saying that those are the endpoints of the gender spectrum.

.... youre saying the exact same thing. You can either be a man, a woman, or varying degrees of both. Thats 3

That's like looking at a number line between 1 to 10 and suggesting that there are only three numbers: 1, 10, and all the numbers in between.

Those are the only 3 options. If you want to break down the both option down even further then the only 2 options are I feel mostly male or I feel mostly female. So at the very most, you could say that there are 4 gender options
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BignutzisBack posted...

Pukelid posted...

BignutzisBack posted...

@sktgamer_13dude posted...

BignutzisBack posted...

Torrific posted...

Jerry_Hellyeah posted...

You know, just for shits and giggles, someone name a few genders for me.

Here's one: Non-binary demi-fluid pan-sexual androgyne

Here's another: Attack Helicopter

And you wonder why no one takes your bald ass seriously.

Aww you gonna have another meltdown again? :)

Why revel in posting transphobic stuff

I fully support trans rights, what I dont support is this make believe gender fluid fantasy trying to piggyback

X - doubt
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Feline_Heart posted...

Those are the only 3 options. If you want to break down the both option down even further then the only 2 options are I feel mostly male or I feel mostly female. So at the very most, you could say that there are 4 gender options

How about I break it down to five?

Or six?
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CyricZ posted...

Feline_Heart posted...

Those are the only 3 options. If you want to break down the both option down even further then the only 2 options are I feel mostly male or I feel mostly female. So at the very most, you could say that there are 4 gender options

How about I break it down to five?

Or six?

Go ahead. I feel like Ive already learned a lot over the course of this topic. If you want to share more info that would be great
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CyricZ posted...

Feline_Heart posted...

you're still saying that those are the only genders.

No, they're saying that those are the endpoints of the gender spectrum.

And frankly, those are entirely arbitrary endpoints based on the fact that traditional gender identities in our society are based on the two modes on the sex spectrum, male and female. There have been other cultures throughout history with other gender identities. They might label the spectrum differently.
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The_Ivory_Man posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Poster is well aware that the argument is that gender is a spectrum

I don't get this.

What about gender is a spectrum?

Are women who wear jeans and flannel less of a woman than one who wears dresses all the time?

Are you saying that certain men are less manly than others because of their hobbies or the way they talk?

I don't think that attitude is healthy at all.

Exhibit C: "I don't understand" when clearly the poster isn't trying to understand.
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Middle hope posted...

How many genders are there?

None. Social construct

scar the 1 posted...

The_Ivory_Man posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Poster is well aware that the argument is that gender is a spectrum

I don't get this.

What about gender is a spectrum?

Are women who wear jeans and flannel less of a woman than one who wears dresses all the time?

Are you saying that certain men are less manly than others because of their hobbies or the way they talk?

I don't think that attitude is healthy at all.

Exhibit C: "I don't understand" when clearly the poster isn't trying to understand.

I don't think that's fair, that was a valid question. See my last post as well, I'm genuinely curious.
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wg64Z posted...

I don't think that's fair, that was a valid question. See my last post as well, I'm genuinely curious.

You might be genuinely curious, but the poster i quoted quite obviously isn't.

...if you are genuinely curious, there's tons of material for you to read, and trans and queer people for you to listen to. Right at your fingertips. You might want to start at the Wikipedia page for gender identity, then you'll be able to branch out in whichever direction you want. A nice transgender YouTuber who makes quite good content imo is Contrapoints, but of course your mileage may vary.

If you, however, are "genuinely curious", but aren't interested in making any sort of effort to learn, then excuse me for not trusting in your sincerity.
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CyricZ posted...

The_Ivory_Man posted...

CyricZ posted...

It's about identity, and not everyone will fall cleanly into the more common "male" or "female". See for example: Asia Kate Dillon.

So what makes someone not male or not female then, what doesn't make them fall cleanly?

Their own brain, with regards to perceptions and self-identity.

Doesn't really answer the question.

What makes them feel that way.

Is it preconceived notions that one cannot be a woman if they do macho things? Because that's what your statement reads like to me.

I feel like these statements move from a place of "you can do whatever you want" to a place of "if you do this you are x"

scar the 1 posted...

Exhibit C: "I don't understand" when clearly the poster isn't trying to understand.

Well hopefully you can explain it, because I truly do not understand where this attitude comes from.
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The_Ivory_Man posted...

Doesn't really answer the question.

What makes them feel that way.

Their brain. It's not something we have a complete scientific understanding of, if that's what you're looking for.

The best way I can describe it is as the website I linked to did:

our deeply held, internal sense of self as masculine, feminine, a blend of both, neither, or something else.

Is it preconceived notions that one cannot be a woman if they do macho things? Because that's what your statement reads like to me.

Not it's not that. That's closer to expression, which is how we show our gender to the world.

I feel like these statements move from a place of "you can do whatever you want" to a place of "if you do this you are x"

I'm not trying to tell people what they are. I listen to people tell me what they are.
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The_Ivory_Man posted...

Well hopefully you can explain it, because I truly do not understand where this attitude comes from.

I'm not interested in explaining anything to you, but if you really want to learn then I honestly believe that your Google Fu is strong enough to get started.
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Sexual preference is not gender, so there are, technically, only 2 genders.
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wg64Z posted...

There are either no genders or infinite genders (aka, no genders)

There could be as many gender identities as there are people, yeah
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scar the 1 posted...

wg64Z posted...

I don't think that's fair, that was a valid question. See my last post as well, I'm genuinely curious.

You might be genuinely curious, but the poster i quoted quite obviously isn't.

...if you are genuinely curious, there's tons of material for you to read, and trans and queer people for you to listen to. Right at your fingertips. You might want to start at the Wikipedia page for gender identity, then you'll be able to branch out in whichever direction you want. A nice transgender YouTuber who makes quite good content imo is Contrapoints, but of course your mileage may vary.

If you, however, are "genuinely curious", but aren't interested in making any sort of effort to learn, then excuse me for not trusting in your sincerity.

I was interested in hearing your take and having a discussion in a discussion forum, not Googling it. If I wanted to do that I wouldn't be here posting. I was hoping to get a more focussed answer to my question rather than sifting through countless articles and videos.
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*sigh*

From what I've been told, the simplest way to understand it is: Sex=Male/Female determined by whether you have a dick or vag, Gender=What someone identifies as, usually closely linked to sexuality. I'm no expert in the field and haven't done much research, but that's due to me not really caring which brings me to my main point:

Why do people care so much about this?

A lot of people argue that it's a scientific issue or treat it like it's some sort of attempt to force people to think a certain way, but does it really matter if it doesn't affect you personally? I could understand someone who doesn't identify as a male or female having a lot invested in it, but so many people get up in arms about there only being two genders.

I think there is a discussion to be had and there's something to be understood, but the animosity surrounding the conversation is just so rancid that it turns a lot of people away.

On one side, you have people who are too quick to label anyone who disagrees that there are more than two genders as bigots instead of explaining. I totally understand how frustrating this has to be for them coming up against plenty of actual close minded people who just want to write off anything they have to say, but at the same time, the majority of society grew up thinking gender and sex were interchangeable terms meaning the same thing.

On the other, you have people who refuse to change their minds, or even listen to the other side since being wrong or ignorant on a subject equates to bad in most people's minds sadly. This is also mixed with actual bigots making the whole thing a mess. There's undoubtedly a cringe factor with just how trollish people present the "there are only two genders" argument looking to own all the "dumb snowflakes who think their special" (typo intentional). Hell, someone made le epic "attack helicopter" joke in this topic.

Of course both sides aren't just their worst examples with the >2 side having plenty of people who do actually try and explain or educate and the =2 side having those who actually want to discuss the matter and not just prove the other side as wrong. It's that combative approach on either side that really cripples any progress from being made.

But again, I don't get why people care so passionately about the matter if it doesn't affect them directly. Who cares if someone wants to be identified as some gender you've never heard of? It shouldn't bother you. You can still be male or female. Them identifying as someone different isn't an attack on your beliefs. It should have no impact on your life whatsoever really, so why get so intense about it? I just don't get it.
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What exactly is the PC way of saying that in terms of pure reproductive biology there are only 2 classes?
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wg64Z posted...

I was interested in hearing your take and having a discussion in a discussion forum, not Googling it. If I wanted to do that I wouldn't be here posting. I was hoping to get a more focussed answer to my question rather than sifting through countless articles and videos.

Thanks for your interest! Like I mentioned, ContraPoints on Youtube is a good place to start. She has some videos specifically about gender and gender identity.
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I think we would just be better off scrapping what it means to be X Y or Z and just be your fucking self. The only reason to slap a label on yourself is to conform to some societal norm it feels like.

I have no problem with trans people whatsoever, however I do think the desperate need to label oneself is dangerous overall in the long run. Labels are a means to categorize, segregate, and to "choose a side" which has historically not been great or helpful.

Let people just be who they are, labels are harmful in the long run. You have a penis and wanna wear a dress? Give'r. You have a Vagina and want to play Rugby and drink scotch? Have at it. Am I ever gonna ask you what that makes you? Nope, cause you're just being you.

#idealworldtheory
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desuno-to posted...

What exactly is the PC way of saying that in terms of pure reproductive biology there are only 2 classes?

I think that's sex.
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scar the 1 posted...

I'm not interested in explaining anything to you

Well then you certainly aren't going to make anyone share your viewpoint with an attitude like that.

CyricZ posted...

Not it's not that. That's closer to expression, which is how we show our gender to the world.

CyricZ posted...

our deeply held, internal sense of self as masculine, feminine, a blend of both, neither, or something else.

Right, but toxic attitudes like "gay men aren't really men" can clearly contribute to that which is why the other genders that countries had throughout history were typically used to demean homosexual and transgender populations.

And considering the people I've seen talk about the non-binary thing typically do it in a way that is actively harmful, expressing things like crying during a film is a "woman" thing, or that not wearing makeup makes them "a man" which is wrong and frankly sexist behavior.
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The_Ivory_Man posted...

Right, but toxic attitudes like "gay men aren't really men" can clearly contribute to that which is why the other genders that countries had throughout history were typically used to demean homosexual and transgender populations.

And considering the people I've seen talk about the non-binary thing typically do it in a way that is actively harmful, expressing things like crying during a film is a "woman" thing, or that not wearing makeup makes them "a man" which is wrong and frankly sexist behavior.

Yes, those attitudes are wrong.

But I don't see what that has to do with the discussion of gender identity.
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GameGodOfAll posted...

desuno-to posted...

What exactly is the PC way of saying that in terms of pure reproductive biology there are only 2 classes?

I think that's sex.

But something tells me that if you said "There are only 2 sexes" you'll get the same reaction as the guy in the article.
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The_Ivory_Man posted...

Well then you certainly aren't going to make anyone share your viewpoint with an attitude like that.

And what is the viewpoint that I'm trying to make people share?
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CyricZ posted...

Yes, those attitudes are wrong.

But I don't see what that has to do with the discussion of gender identity.

Because that's all I've seen non-binary or gender fluid people say.

If you look at any article written by a person those attitudes will appear.

Sexist attitudes that only reinforce notions that men and women can't do certain things.

I don't see any reason for other genders to exist, other than to push things outside the realm of what men and women can do.
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scar the 1 posted...

And what is the viewpoint that I'm trying to make people share?

Are you not sharing a viewpoint?

Seems strange that you have continued posting in a topic where you aren't sure on your own viewpoint.
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The_Ivory_Man posted...

Because that's all I've seen non-binary or gender fluid people say.

If you look at any article written by a person those attitudes will appear.

Sexist attitudes that only reinforce notions that men and women can't do certain things.

I don't see any reason for other genders to exist, other than to push things outside the realm of what men and women can do.

Example article please?
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The_Ivory_Man posted...

scar the 1 posted...

And what is the viewpoint that I'm trying to make people share?

Are you not sharing a viewpoint?

Seems strange that you have continued posting in a topic where you aren't sure on your own viewpoint.

Exhibit D: He was too busy sniffing his own farts to remember to actually make a point lol

The_Ivory_Man posted...

scar the 1 posted...

And what is the viewpoint that I'm trying to make people share?

Are you not sharing a viewpoint?

Seems strange that you have continued posting in a topic where you aren't sure on your own viewpoint.

Did you read my posts?
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CyricZ posted...

Example article please?

https://ravishly.com/im-genderfluid

Id say when I ran into a female friend. I just threw something on this morning because I was suddenly embarrassed that I was wearing jeans and hadnt put on makeup. But when I left the house feeling distinctly "dude" that morning, makeup was the last thing on my mind.

NeverOffended posted...

The_Ivory_Man posted...

scar the 1 posted...

And what is the viewpoint that I'm trying to make people share?

Are you not sharing a viewpoint?

Seems strange that you have continued posting in a topic where you aren't sure on your own viewpoint.

Exhibit D: He was too busy sniffing his own farts to remember to actually make a point lol

Yes... That is what you did.

Sorry I'm not in the business of informing someone what their own points are, what did you asking me add to the discussion?
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The_Ivory_Man posted...

CyricZ posted...

Example article please?

https://ravishly.com/im-genderfluid

Id say when I ran into a female friend. I just threw something on this morning because I was suddenly embarrassed that I was wearing jeans and hadnt put on makeup. But when I left the house feeling distinctly "dude" that morning, makeup was the last thing on my mind.

NeverOffended posted...

The_Ivory_Man posted...

scar the 1 posted...

And what is the viewpoint that I'm trying to make people share?

Are you not sharing a viewpoint?

Seems strange that you have continued posting in a topic where you aren't sure on your own viewpoint.

Exhibit D: He was too busy sniffing his own farts to remember to actually make a point lol

Yes... That is what you did.

Sorry I'm not in the business of informing someone what their own points are, what did you asking me add to the discussion?

That was directed towards scar

NeverOffended posted...

The_Ivory_Man posted...

CyricZ posted...

Example article please?

https://ravishly.com/im-genderfluid

Id say when I ran into a female friend. I just threw something on this morning because I was suddenly embarrassed that I was wearing jeans and hadnt put on makeup. But when I left the house feeling distinctly "dude" that morning, makeup was the last thing on my mind.

NeverOffended posted...

The_Ivory_Man posted...

scar the 1 posted...

And what is the viewpoint that I'm trying to make people share?

Are you not sharing a viewpoint?

Seems strange that you have continued posting in a topic where you aren't sure on your own viewpoint.

Exhibit D: He was too busy sniffing his own farts to remember to actually make a point lol

Yes... That is what you did.

Sorry I'm not in the business of informing someone what their own points are, what did you asking me add to the discussion?

That was directed towards scar

Oh, wasn't looking at usernames sorry, yeah.

Makes far more sense since I had no idea what he was trying to express with that.
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The_Ivory_Man posted...

CyricZ posted...

Example article please?

https://ravishly.com/im-genderfluid

Id say when I ran into a female friend. I just threw something on this morning because I was suddenly embarrassed that I was wearing jeans and hadnt put on makeup. But when I left the house feeling distinctly "dude" that morning, makeup was the last thing on my mind.

Neat.

That snippet cuts out the rest of the paragraph, where she states that she'd rather not have to apologize and it's part of her coming to terms with herself and her expression in social encounters.

Sometimes who Im with affects how I present and how I feel. And other times, I am how I am, regardless of who I interact with. Being okay with that has been one of the biggest hurdles to accepting myself.

Ive learned to stop talking about myself with an implied apology. Dont even look at my clothes, Id say when I ran into a female friend. I just threw something on this morning because I was suddenly embarrassed that I was wearing jeans and hadnt put on makeup. But when I left the house feeling distinctly "dude" that morning, makeup was the last thing on my mind.

Giving yourself and others permission to simply be however they feel moment to moment is a huge gift. It removes the need to justify or explain anything. It also acts as an inclusive behavior where all people feel welcome, regardless of if they are presenting the same as how they were earlier that day or even last week.

She is actively trying to play against gender roles based on her current expression. That's kind of the focus of that part of the article.
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I'll just go ahead and post this again

https://www.apa.org/practice/guidelines/transgender.pdf

Page 834
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Labels matter, words matter. Words are what we use to define the world, everything cant just mean whatever anyone wants it to mean. That defies the very point of language people have to agree on what words mean. If not it leads to a place where conversation becomes increasingly difficult because no one agrees on (or knows) what these words mean. You take a system of order turn it into chaos. If there are as many genders as there are people then gender ceases to have any useful meaning, we have a word for that it's called identity or personality. There are as many identities or personalities as there are people in the world.

We have had 2 genders for as far as I can tell all of human history. Now a very small percentage of the population would like everyone to scrap that well defined useful term and go with a less well defined less useful term. Problem is the burden is on the group trying to redefine the word to make a convincing argument and by and large they are not doing that, they are not winning the argument.
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CyricZ posted...

She is actively trying to play against gender roles based on her current expression. That's kind of the focus of that part of the article.

Nah.

But when I left the house feeling distinctly "dude" that morning, makeup was the last thing on my mind.

Giving yourself and others permission to simply be however they feel moment to moment is a huge gift. It removes the need to justify or explain anything. It also acts as an inclusive behavior where all people feel welcome, regardless of if they are presenting the same as how they were earlier that day or even last week.

She still is saying make-up is a woman thing.

She's saying allowing her gender fluidity lets her be who she wants to without explanations, because she's presenting as a man or a woman.

That attitude of make-up being a woman thing is still there.

She's not saying "men and women should wear make-up if they feel like it"

She's saying "I presented as a man because I felt like a man which is why I didn't wear make-up and I don't want to have to express my feelings all the time"

All this does is further enhances the idea of the gender divide by making certain behaviors exclusive.
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