Poll of the Day > Transgenderism is no longer a Mental Disorder, per WHO...

(+) Yeah! (+)

This is a double edged sword for trans people. On one hand, they get to think that thinking that you're in the wrong body isn't a mental illness. But on the other hand, it green lights every government under the UN to decline offering free treatment, should they choose to.
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Muscles posted...

Krazy_Kirby posted...

if someone thinks they are really santa, does that mean they actually are?

no, it means they are crazy

That's not the same thing at all

You CAN have a brain of a different sex than your body. While there is much more in common with guys and girls brains than there are differences, there are still differences

no you can't
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Krazy_Kirby posted...

Muscles posted...

Krazy_Kirby posted...

if someone thinks they are really santa, does that mean they actually are?

no, it means they are crazy

That's not the same thing at all

You CAN have a brain of a different sex than your body. While there is much more in common with guys and girls brains than there are differences, there are still differences

no you can't

Maybe you cant
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levelshooter posted...

This is a double edged sword for trans people. On one hand, they get to think that thinking that you're in the wrong body isn't a mental illness. But on the other hand, it green lights every government under the UN to decline offering free treatment, should they choose to.

it's a screwed either way situation honestly....but it's one where i feel like we can't just deny it's a condition just to make people feel better

when something's an anomaly it's not what one would call normal or typical to see

when someone needs to be pumped full of hormones and get surgeries to fashion themselves A Body more like the opposite sex

it's what one would call abnormal

and screaming it isn't does nothing but send us down a slippery slope on the terms of what counts as a disorder and what doesn't
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levelshooter posted...

But on the other hand, it green lights every government under the UN to decline offering free treatment, should they choose to.

that's literally not true, lol. when diagnostic criteria is updated it becomes easier to access treatment, not harder. did you know there used to be a 12-month "real life test" before you'd even be considered for hormones? that's basically not a thing anymore. this is similarly updating it. i would really recommend reading up on the informed consent model for trans care if you're confused about this
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Good. Hopefully masculinity will be declared a disorder.

TheWorstPoster posted...

Meanwhile, GAMING is a disorder.

The WHO is a joke.

Gaming addiction? Yes, that's absolutely a disorder, and it's about time it gets recognized as such. They're not remotely saying that every gamer is a dysfunctional addict, just that video games can be addictive enough to cause problems in people's lives. That's not news to anyone that's paid any attention at all to gaming over the course of its existence.

chaosbowser posted...

The negative impacts of it are mental not physical health. Which is the realm of psychiatry. You physically treat depression with drugs. That is just as physical as giving a gender dysphoric MtF estrogen.

That analogy's debatable, given that antidepressants act specifically on the brain, rather than on any other body systems (at least, that's the intent, but side effects are a thing), whereas hormone therapy primarily targets the rest of the body. That said, you're not wrong that the mental/physical distinction is a bit blurry with gender dysphoria, such that definitively categorizing it as one or the other isn't entirely correct. It's also not a distinction that's altogether necessary, though. The ICD exists mostly for the sake of normalizing how doctors document diagnoses; how it's organized is largely arbitrary and just affects how intuitive the list is to navigate. Whether it's classified as physical or mental disorder doesn't change the recommended treatment approach, it just changes which page it's on.

_AdjI_ posted...

That analogy's debatable, given that antidepressants act specifically on the brain, rather than on any other body systems (at least, that's the intent, but side effects are a thing)

It effects the physiology of the brain.

_AdjI_ posted...

whereas hormone therapy primarily targets the rest of the body.

It targets all of it, brain and all.

_AdjI_ posted...

That said, you're not wrong that the mental/physical distinction is a bit blurry with gender dysphoria, such that definitively categorizing it as one or the other isn't entirely correct.

It's only fuzzy if you consider gender a convenient word that means sex except when it isn't.

It's a mental disorder if you believe your body is wrong when perfectly functional and it's a mental disorder if you believe your brain is wrong for your body when it interacts with your body just fine. It's also a mental disorder to believe your mind has a gender at all.
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How do you own disorder?

I'll just say anything that requires a medical response to address (in this case hormones and surgery) still seems like the sort of thing that gets a classification.

If it's not a disorder what is it classified as?

Kyuubi4269 posted...

It effects the physiology of the brain.

And the physiology of the brain is what's responsible for the suite of bodily functions to which the label "mental" is applied. If the physical/mental distinction is to exist at all (an argument can be made that it doesn't, for exactly the reasons you're implying), then any treatment that targets neurophysiology must be considered a mental treatment.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

It targets all of it, brain and all.

I'd argue the effects on the brain are secondary to the effects on the rest of the body, in terms of intent.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

It's also a mental disorder to believe your mind has a gender at all.

Do you not believe that there are psychological differences between men and women?

I've read most of this topic, and trying to understand it. honestly though, it makes me a bit sad, lost, and confused. i'm scared, nervous, feeling self-conscious, and don't know what to think about anything anymore.

just wondering if it's wrong that i'm male, but having female thoughts, and feeling the need to want to be female ??

yeah, people can judge and criticize if they want, i'm thick skinned enough to take it. just wish I had other people in my life besides co-workers to talk to about my thoughts, feelings, wants, and needs. and no, talking to family members about this, probably won't help matters, and will probably lead to more questions and concerns
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_AdjI_ posted...

I mean, if the primary means of treatment is physical, it makes sense to not call it a mental disorder. The treatment approach acknowledges that the problem is with the body, not the mind. It may shift back to mental if future developments in treatment start favouring cognitive approaches. It may not. Only time will tell, so everyone should just shut up and let science do its job.

Lokarin posted...

Is something that's not part of the median/mean a disorder by default?

It's abnormal (a term which carries far more pejorative connotations than it ought to, given how statistically objective it is), but in order to qualify as a disorder, an aberration has to have a significant negative impact on the person and those around them. Heterochromia, for example, is very much abnormal, but nobody would really call it a disorder because it's generally not going to hurt those people.

Of course, there's some room for argument about classifying something as a disorder when negative effects arise from how other people respond to the condition, rather than anything intrinsic. If, for example, it were common for heterochromic people to be lynched in the streets, one could argue that heterochromia would qualify as a disorder, and declassify it as such if society progressed to a point where that was no longer true. This is basically what happened with homosexuality between the DSM3 and DSM4.

That's some fine tap-dancing, especially comparing heterochromia to transgenderism (lolwut?)

Granted, with advancements in technology, we'll increasingly be able to accommodate rather than treat mental illnesses so the conventional idea of mental illness may well go out the window. If somebody believes that they're something else, body modification will accommodate it. If somebody believes that they're someone else, we might see some kind of perception-filter technology that adjusts their perception enough to fit in the world without actually treating a damn thing.
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As a practitioner in the field I can say with absolute certainty that psychology is completely broken. All in the name of trying to gain credibility as a legitimate science by trying to pigeon hole all human behavior one way or another. Trying futilely to make round pegs fit into square holes that now dismisses that literally no two brains are alike and human nature is inherently chaotic.

The fact that a zoologist with a clear vested interest in normalizing human sexual behaviors so as to help normalize his own deviating behavior acts as the keystone foundation of all of the "science" that legitimizes it is all one needs to see how dysfunctional the state of the field has become.

Although the reality is that all scientific fields are now dysfunctional because the scientific method is no longer at the core of discovery. Nearly every field that involves scientific study no longer seeks answers so much as they seek out consensus. Which is why all branches of science are starting to inch closer toward religion and the field of psychology is becoming its dogma.

You only need to look at any forum on the internet where debate is had that zealots will claim SCIENCE and march as faith militant toward what ever the current consensus is

NightMareBunny posted...

vocedelmorte posted...

It's literally disorder, because they have to undergo a surgery to make it right

and even then there's a chance things still won't feel right

i can't imagine most of these surgeries are safe or go off without any unseen consequences

Depends. Male to female transition and surgery is quite impressive and can be basically indistinguishable. We had a transgender symposium at my med school. We had a surgeon showing their transition surgery work. Female to Male is unfortunately no where near on the level. Making a penis is far more complex than making a vagina sadly. Satisfaction rates with the surgery are poor.
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If you read the WHO statement it seems like the reason they changed it was so that it could be more easily accessed in electronic medical records.


The new ICD also includes new chapters, one on traditional medicine: although millions of people use traditional medicine worldwide, it has never been classified in this system. Another new chapter on sexual health brings together conditions that were previously categorized in other ways (e.g. gender incongruence was listed under mental health conditions) or described differently. Gaming disorder has been added to the section on addictive disorders.

"A key principle in this revision was to simplify the coding structure and electronic tooling - this will allow health care professionals to more easily and completely record conditions," says Dr Robert Jakob, Team Leader, Classifications Terminologies and Standards, WHO.

So instead of listing it along side things like bipolar disorder and schizophrenia its now listed in a new separate chapter dedicated to sexual health.

I'd have to actually read the ICD-11 but it seems like this change doesn't mean anything other than just re-arranging the shelves.

Link below, I don't know how to shorten it so gamefaqs will accept it.

https://www.paho.org/hq/index.php?
option=com_content&view=article&id=14450
:who-releases-new-international-classification-of-diseases-icd
-11&Itemid=135&lang=fr
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So are male thoughts like "grrr I want to fight and hit things with a hammer" and female thoughts are like "I want to have babies ugu"
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Zareth posted...

So are male thoughts like "grrr I want to fight and hit things with a hammer" and female thoughts are like "I want to have babies ugu"

no, male thoughts are "i would like to have sex" and female thoughts are "i would like to eat chocolate"

duh
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I want to have sex and eat chocolate at the same time. I knew I was gender fluid.
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dedbus posted...

How do you own disorder?

with sacred silence and sleeeeeep
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it is 100% a mental disorder
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alternatively, instead of saying its is a mental disorder, we can ask is it normal? Which its simple to say no.