Current Events > Controversial LGBTQ Sex Ed classes to be taught to Kindergarteners in California

(+) Yeah! (+)

Blade-wolf posted...

Yeah yeah. They can still be kids, as long as they're programmed with what you feel is proper

I pledge allegiance...
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Seraphim13 posted...

King_Hellebuyck posted...

Seraphim13 posted...

Those are grown issues
Children should not be involved in adult situations

Let children be children.

They're innocent and if they have questions that can be answered but it's not something that should be pursued or pressed upon them.

When you take that right away you turn them away from being children and innocent. Why are Creeple so adamant about having them learn about things that they don't need to know about until they're older? In turn, they're not children anymore and it completely defiles and changes the definition of one....

Those are only grown issues to you because everyone had to repress themselves into adulthood (and beyond). There are trans children. There are gay children. There are gay and trans adults who children will interact with. There are consent issues that children need to be aware of so they dont get molested.

We teach racial acceptance from a young age. There is no reason not to teach acceptance for LGBTQ people.

kids should be aware that there's different types of sexuality as far as attraction but to go in and teach a kid how to use their wiener or their gender assigned private part is ridiculous.

Kindergarten? Honestly. how about we just let them eat bugs pick their nose and do it kids do naturally not inquire about how Daddy and Daddy's boyfriend uncle get together and hook up....

You should go find out what he curriculum actually is before assuming its the worst thing imaginable.
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King_Hellebuyck posted...

Seraphim13 posted...

King_Hellebuyck posted...

Seraphim13 posted...

Those are grown issues
Children should not be involved in adult situations

Let children be children.

They're innocent and if they have questions that can be answered but it's not something that should be pursued or pressed upon them.

When you take that right away you turn them away from being children and innocent. Why are Creeple so adamant about having them learn about things that they don't need to know about until they're older? In turn, they're not children anymore and it completely defiles and changes the definition of one....

Those are only grown issues to you because everyone had to repress themselves into adulthood (and beyond). There are trans children. There are gay children. There are gay and trans adults who children will interact with. There are consent issues that children need to be aware of so they dont get molested.

We teach racial acceptance from a young age. There is no reason not to teach acceptance for LGBTQ people.

kids should be aware that there's different types of sexuality as far as attraction but to go in and teach a kid how to use their wiener or their gender assigned private part is ridiculous.

Kindergarten? Honestly. how about we just let them eat bugs pick their nose and do it kids do naturally not inquire about how Daddy and Daddy's boyfriend uncle get together and hook up....

You should go find out what he curriculum actually is before assuming its the worst thing imaginable.

Its California
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SmidgeIsntBack posted...

I pledge allegiance...

I am against that also.
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McgeesAlice808 posted...

burritosatan posted...

McgeesAlice808 posted...

Ive not been too fond of stuff California has done lately but this is a good thing. Although not surprised to see right leaning reactionaries condoning anti-intellectualism as usual.

For 4 year olds tho?

No different than showing straight couples on TV. Calling it sex ed is a bit of a misnomer. That said, I am against American societys need to go think of the children! and coddle them. Theres nothing wrong with teaching kids the realities of life before they need them. Those children tend to go further in life.

I mean we seem to be perfectly okay with children being shot at school...
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McgeesAlice808 posted...

burritosatan posted...

McgeesAlice808 posted...

Ive not been too fond of stuff California has done lately but this is a good thing. Although not surprised to see right leaning reactionaries condoning anti-intellectualism as usual.

For 4 year olds tho?

No different than showing straight couples on TV. Calling it sex ed is a bit of a misnomer. That said, I am against American societys need to go think of the children! and coddle them. Theres nothing wrong with teaching kids the realities of life before they need them. Those children tend to go further in life.

Children get education based on need. There is no need for this information in kindergarten
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have you even figured out what information is being presented yet, or are you still railing against the strawman curriculum you've built?
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Medussa posted...

have you even figured out what information is being presented yet, or are you still railing against the strawman curriculum you've built?

When did I build the curriculum? I'm as far away from California as possible for a reason
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burritosatan posted...

Medussa posted...

have you even figured out what information is being presented yet, or are you still railing against the strawman curriculum you've built?

When did I build the curriculum? I'm as far away from California as possible for a reason

You couldve just said no.
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I'm fine with it as long as it remains "gay people exist and it's ok to be gay" type thing anything more is too much. If it turns into something like, "you can mutilate yourself into another gender" then that's where I draw the line.

Kids shouldn't be encouraged to change themselves and should be promoted to be comfortable with themselves, so I'm for it in that case.
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Slaya4 posted...

Kids shouldn't be encouraged to change themselves and should be promoted to be comfortable with themselves

Neat.

What about the kids who go through severe depression because of gender dysphoria. Should they be "encouraged" not to change themselves? How much should they be "encouraged"? How hard should they be "encouraged"?
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CyricZ posted...

Slaya4 posted...

Kids shouldn't be encouraged to change themselves and should be promoted to be comfortable with themselves

Neat.

What about the kids who go through severe depression because of gender dysphoria. Should they be "encouraged" not to change themselves? How much should they be "encouraged"? How hard should they be "encouraged"?

Don't know why self encouragement and being comfortable with yourself is an issue to be taught, but ok.
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Slaya4 posted...

CyricZ posted...

Slaya4 posted...

Kids shouldn't be encouraged to change themselves and should be promoted to be comfortable with themselves

Neat.

What about the kids who go through severe depression because of gender dysphoria. Should they be "encouraged" not to change themselves? How much should they be "encouraged"? How hard should they be "encouraged"?

Don't know why self encouragement and being comfortable with yourself is an issue to be taught, but ok.

Trans people are trying to be comfortable with themselves. Let them.
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We are talking about kids. Not grown people. That's they're decision. I'll even entertain the idea of trans people having depression over gender identity. That's something that should not be taught to kids, by a teacher, in a classroom that's something that should be between the child and the parent not in a classroom.

Children should always be promoted to be comfortable with themselves, as they are. Encouraging self harm is a no go.
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Slaya4 posted...

CyricZ posted...

Slaya4 posted...

Kids shouldn't be encouraged to change themselves and should be promoted to be comfortable with themselves

Neat.

What about the kids who go through severe depression because of gender dysphoria. Should they be "encouraged" not to change themselves? How much should they be "encouraged"? How hard should they be "encouraged"?

Don't know why self encouragement and being comfortable with yourself is an issue to be taught, but ok.

My point is that for the last several decades, teaching transgender children to "be comfortable with themselves" has not worked, and in extreme cases, has led to bullying, being ostracized, and parental abandonment. That's not a good track to stay on.

In my opinion, discussing transgender children in a classroom setting falls under "some people are different, and that's okay".

EDIT: Before we go any further, you do realize transgender children exist, right? Not in the "physical change of body" sense, but in the behavioral sense.
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I knew I was trans at 4. I was suicidally depressed because of it by 14. you're wrong. Transition is allowing trans people to be themselves. People are their brains.

If only you had a good education on the topic.
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CyricZ posted...

What about the kids who go through severe depression because of gender dysphoria. Should they be "encouraged" not to change themselves? How much should they be "encouraged"? How hard should they be "encouraged"?

Or should adults not be so ready to socialize their children into traditional gendered tropes? If a five year old likes to dress up or play with dolls it probably does more harm than good to suggest 'only girls do that'.

Hormonal therapies and the like should be reserved for after puberty, which means its a decision made by legal adults for themselves.
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Slaya4 posted...

I'll even entertain the idea of trans people having depression over gender identity.

How generous of you
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I knew about gay people in like the 1st grade. This is no big deal
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Everybody is quick to call me an asshole but yet nobody is disagreeing with me besides the trans folk which is understandable.
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DuneMan posted...

CyricZ posted...

What about the kids who go through severe depression because of gender dysphoria. Should they be "encouraged" not to change themselves? How much should they be "encouraged"? How hard should they be "encouraged"?

Or should adults not be so ready to socialize their children into traditional gendered tropes? If a five year old likes to dress up or play with dolls it probably does more harm than good to suggest 'only girls do that'.

Hormonal therapies and the like should be reserved for after puberty, which means its a decision made by legal adults for themselves.

As I'm sure the transgender people on this board can tell you, there's a difference between "playing with dolls" and "feeling that you're the wrong gender".

And the whole point of hormone therapies is for them to be administered *before* puberty so that the child doesn't develop as the gender they don't identify as. Not when you're four, of course, but shortly before puberty.
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Slaya4 posted...

Everybody is quick to call me an asshole but yet nobody is disagreeing with me besides the trans folk which is understandable.

Maybe you should listen to the trans folk. If no one else.
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Slaya4 posted...

We are talking about kids. Not grown people. That's they're decision. I'll even entertain the idea of trans people having depression over gender identity. That's something that should not be taught to kids, by a teacher, in a classroom that's something that should be between the child and the parent not in a classroom.

Children should always be promoted to be comfortable with themselves, as they are. Encouraging self harm is a no go.

Oh wow, this guy is willing to entertain the idea of something incredibly common. Definitely not trolling and definitely not a transphobic post at all.

Is there anything else that you might entertain allowing people to do? Are gay people allowed to be gay on their or do they need to wait until they get permission? Should bipolar people just wait until adulthood to seek treatment or will you allow them to see doctors before then?

Or better yet, how about you let doctors worry about the medical side and teachers worry about the education side while you worry about your own fucking business?
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CyricZ posted...

feeling that you're the wrong gender

That's a socialized thing though. That's adults quickly pointing out to kids that boys and girls are different, like different things, do different things, etc. If a young kid is actually feeling that they're the wrong gender then there's been a failure somewhere, as kids shouldn't even really be aware of what it IS to be one gender or the other.

CyricZ posted...

And the whole point of hormone therapies is for them to be administered *before* puberty so that the child doesn't develop as the gender they don't identify as.

Medical doctors disagree with you. While puberty blockers might be given at age 11 or so, cross-gender stuff is given at 16 or so, and even then doctors admit that the risks to physical and mental being of the child aren't entirely known.
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DuneMan posted...

CyricZ posted...

feeling that you're the wrong gender

That's a socialized thing though. That's adults quickly pointing out to kids that boys and girls are different, like different things, do different things, etc. If a young kid is actually feeling that they're the wrong gender then there's been a failure somewhere, as kids shouldn't even really be aware of what it IS to be one gender or the other.

That isnt how it works
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King_Hellebuyck posted...

Slaya4 posted...

We are talking about kids. Not grown people. That's they're decision. I'll even entertain the idea of trans people having depression over gender identity. That's something that should not be taught to kids, by a teacher, in a classroom that's something that should be between the child and the parent not in a classroom.

Children should always be promoted to be comfortable with themselves, as they are. Encouraging self harm is a no go.

Oh wow, this guy is willing to entertain the idea of something incredibly common. Definitely not trolling and definitely not a transphobic post at all.

Is there anything else that you might entertain allowing people to do? Are gay people allowed to be gay on their or do they need to wait until they get permission? Should bipolar people just wait until adulthood to seek treatment or will you allow them to see doctors before then?

Or better yet, how about you let doctors worry about the medical side and teachers worry about the education side while you worry about your own fucking business?

Sorry I hurt your feelings.
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It's easy to say that isn't how it works, but perhaps you'd instead provide a link to research instead on how it works? Because the average child definitely doesn't spend time contemplating their gender.

E.g. the second half of my post is based in part on guidelines from Endocrinologists.
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DuneMan posted...

CyricZ posted...

feeling that you're the wrong gender

That's a socialized thing though. That's adults quickly pointing out to kids that boys and girls are different, like different things, do different things, etc. If a young kid is actually feeling that they're the wrong gender then there's been a failure somewhere, as kids shouldn't even really be aware of what it IS to be one gender or the other.

You say they "shouldn't" be aware of what it is to be one gender or another, but the fact is they are. As early as four-years-old, a child, through what it learns and absorbs, understands the distinction between male and female at a surface level. Whether it's "a social construct" is immaterial. Children develop a gender identity at an early age, and yes it's before they understand what sexuality is, before they understand the full social ramifications of being one gender or another.

https://www.healthychildren.org/English/ages-stages/gradeschool/Pages/Gender-Identity-and-Gender-Confusion-In-Children.aspx

Medical doctors disagree with you. While puberty blockers might be given at age 11 or so, cross-gender stuff is given at 16 or so, and even then doctors admit that the risks to physical and mental being of the child aren't entirely known.

For the sake of simplicity, I was including puberty blockers in my definition of HRT. If that's inaccurate, then my apologies.
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DuneMan posted...

Because the average child definitely doesn't spend time contemplating their gender.

nobody really contemplates anything when things are working correctly. Try it when it's not.
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CyricZ posted...

Whether it's "a social construct" is immaterial.

No, because it suggests that social change could greatly lessen the anxiety associated with society pushing traditional gender roles.
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Slaya4 posted...

King_Hellebuyck posted...

Slaya4 posted...

We are talking about kids. Not grown people. That's they're decision. I'll even entertain the idea of trans people having depression over gender identity. That's something that should not be taught to kids, by a teacher, in a classroom that's something that should be between the child and the parent not in a classroom.

Children should always be promoted to be comfortable with themselves, as they are. Encouraging self harm is a no go.

Oh wow, this guy is willing to entertain the idea of something incredibly common. Definitely not trolling and definitely not a transphobic post at all.

Is there anything else that you might entertain allowing people to do? Are gay people allowed to be gay on their or do they need to wait until they get permission? Should bipolar people just wait until adulthood to seek treatment or will you allow them to see doctors before then?

Or better yet, how about you let doctors worry about the medical side and teachers worry about the education side while you worry about your own fucking business?

Sorry I hurt your feelings.

Oh, youre just trolling? Sorry for thinking you were being honest.
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DuneMan posted...

CyricZ posted...

Whether it's "a social construct" is immaterial.

No, because it suggests that social change could greatly lessen the anxiety associated with society pushing traditional gender roles.

Okay. You change society, then let me know how it affects transgender children.

I mean how hard could it be.
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CyricZ posted...

Okay. You change society, then let me know how it affects transgender children.

I mean how hard could it be.

Depends on the country. If you're talking about the United States, harder than getting hell to freeze. If you're talking about certain European countries, not nearly as hard as you seem to imply.
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Since this topic is about California, let's keep it simple and refer to the US as a whole.
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it doesn't matter, because it's not a social construct. gender roles could be completely flipped, I would still be dysphoric and you still wouldn't be.

it's physical. it's chemical.
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Medussa posted...

it doesn't matter, because it's not a social construct. gender roles could be completely flipped, I would still be dysphoric and you still wouldn't be.

it's physical. it's chemical.

Isnt it mostly a mental thing? Like you're experiencing dysmorphia??
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burritosatan posted...

Medussa posted...

it doesn't matter, because it's not a social construct. gender roles could be completely flipped, I would still be dysphoric and you still wouldn't be.

it's physical. it's chemical.

Isnt it mostly a mental thing? Like you're experiencing dysmorphia??

The brain is a physical entity
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hockeybub89 posted...

burritosatan posted...

Medussa posted...

it doesn't matter, because it's not a social construct. gender roles could be completely flipped, I would still be dysphoric and you still wouldn't be.

it's physical. it's chemical.

Isnt it mostly a mental thing? Like you're experiencing dysmorphia??

The brain is a physical entity

So is there no mental aspects to health in general then?
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burritosatan posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

burritosatan posted...

Medussa posted...

it doesn't matter, because it's not a social construct. gender roles could be completely flipped, I would still be dysphoric and you still wouldn't be.

it's physical. it's chemical.

Isnt it mostly a mental thing? Like you're experiencing dysmorphia??

The brain is a physical entity

So is there no mental aspects to health in general then?

Well yeah but "It's all in your head/mental" is a non-statement since mental problems are just defects or injuries of our most complex body part. The entire problem with mental health is that we inexplicably downplay the brain as if its issues are easier to overcome or it is some completely different magical beast.

It's a different field of medicine than others for sure, but it's every bit as physical as anything else.
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burritosatan posted...

Medussa posted...

it doesn't matter, because it's not a social construct. gender roles could be completely flipped, I would still be dysphoric and you still wouldn't be.

it's physical. it's chemical.

Isnt it mostly a mental thing? Like you're experiencing dysmorphia??

1) dysphoria. dysmorphia is a different condition, and people intentionally use it incorrectly to try to spin the argument into something it's not. if that's you, stop it, I'm not going to fall for it. If that's not you, please change your terminology in the future.

2) dysphoria is a symptom of an underlying condition. dysphoria is a mental condition, yes. but being trans itself isn't. dysphoria is usually solved by transitioning, and is more likely to be effective the earlier it is started. Surgical transition no earlier than 18, hrt 15, blockers at puberty, and social transition at any point the person is ready to. There are no other known solutions. if you have one, feel free to share it with the class, and make a lot of money in the process. but please, don't just throw out the same bullshit that we've known doesn't work for basically a century.
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Things like the 'fight or flight' response are also chemical, but that doesn't mean the average person flips into a rage and goes on a rampage. Stating that brain chemistry exists doesn't contribute much on its own.

But back to the specific issue of identity, that's ALL mental. If you're talking physical, the bits between your legs don't matter until puberty. So any feelings prior to that about gender are going to be mental constructs based on what society is demonstrating as 'the norm'.
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DuneMan posted...

So any feelings prior to that about gender are going to be mental constructs based on what society is demonstrating as 'the norm'.

Or the mental construct is based on identity, and the expression of gender norms by the person in question is the effort to be seen as that gender according to how society views that gender.

"I identify as a girl, and I want others to see me as a girl, therefore, I will grow my hair long, wear dresses, and play with toys I'm told are girl toys."
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You can't do that until you've some idea of what a 'boy' and 'girl' are. You get that viewpoint by observing society around you. Prior to that you're just 'you'. If society said you were simply a 'child' and could be interested in whatever the **** you wanted there wouldn't be that issue.
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this is simply not true.

and we've known it isn't true since the 70s, when John Money ruined David Reimer's life. The blank slate theory is bunk.
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Banjo2553 posted...

Kindergarten seems a bit early for that.

If you dont teach kids early that homosexuality is normal, some will already been taught that homosexuality is not normal by the time you think its time to teach them its normal.

DuneMan posted...

You can't do that until you've some idea of what a 'boy' and 'girl' are. You get that viewpoint by observing society around you. Prior to that you're just 'you'.

You can't "express" a gender until you have some idea, sure.

But, I think it's faulty to tie that to the identity's formation. As I understand it, the expression of the child comes as a result of the identity, not the identity resulting from observing the expression.

As I understand it, it doesn't seem the case that a child looks at a gender expression and says "that's me". It's more of looking at oneself and saying "That's not me." But maybe Medussa can fill in the blanks on this.

If society said you were simply a 'child' and could be interested in whatever the **** you wanted there wouldn't be that issue.

Can you provide me examples in history where this has happened? I'm interested to see if this is in fact the case.

At any rate, I'm still wondering what your point is. Are you suggesting transgender people wouldn't exist if there were no observable difference between how men and women act?
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CyricZ posted...

Are you suggesting transgender people wouldn't exist if there were no observable difference between how men and women act?

No. I'm just saying that prepubescent children wouldn't feel intense anxiety that comes from social pressures saying 'you're a boy/girl and should act like it'. While gender roles are deeply rooted in human history it could be argued that they serve little to no purpose in post-industrial societies. They're essentially vestigial aspects of society, stubborn ones in some societies but still not necessary.
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Cool. Let me know how it goes tearing that all down. In the meantime, I'll suggest we let transgender kids express in a way that makes them personally comfortable.
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I'm 100% for letting every kid wear clothes they like, play with toys they like, etc. But all the ones who wear skirts and play with barbies aren't going to be girls (cis or trans)

The only way to know which kids are boys and which are girls is to ask them. full godsdamned stop. I don't understand why that's such a hard thing to do.
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