Current Events > Stop defending Game of Thrones *spoilers*

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuFmzgK5nD0" data-time="&start=393

This video basically explains every reason why I hated the most recent episode and what they did with Dany's character.

Mind you I've never been a big Dany fan but this was just awfully written and executed.

Edit: To include my stance on why this was awful. It's not the fact that Dany became a mad queen that sucks. It's the build up.

De Evolution posted...

ScazarMeltex posted...

So much of this is "waaah my characters didn't get the ending I thought they should". A lot of it is bad writing, but the Dany heel turn had been telegraphed as far back as season fucking 2. Just because you want something for a character doesn't mean you'll get it.

This is exactly what this is. A heel turn.

I expected that Dany would end up killing a bunch of innocent people while Cersei was using them as meat shields to hide behind, and in doing so would be forced to kill lots of innocents.

Or maybe as she was strafing the city she would accidentally set off some of the wildfire caches and they would be responsible for most of the deaths.

Instead we have her legit genocide the entire city street by street for no reason at all. Absolutely out of nowhere.

And there's people defending this.

Dany has NEVER killed for amusement, fun, or indiscriminately.

The same Dany that rescued women from the Dothraki raping and pillaging.

The same Dany that locked up her own dragons because a single innocent child was burned to death.

Dany has given out justice and violence to people who deserved it and people who were her enemies.

They spent 7 seasons showing Dany being pretty damn nice by Westeros standards then do a complete 180 and say "well she burned people before!".

No shit. She burned enemies on the battlefield and burned people in execution.

She crucified the masters who were slave owners and has just killed hundreds of children themselves just to make a point.

She locked her handmaiden and the king of Qarth in a vault because they literally tried to steal her dragons and have her killed.

Dany has never once in the story just killed for shits and giggles like a Ramsay or Joffrey.

So where exactly was this "telegraphed"?

Two episodes ago Dany sacrificed her army and risked her own life to save the world from the threat of the whitewalkers.

Today after she single handedly burned the Iron Fleet, the Lannister army, the Golden Company, and the city defenses she decides to go on a genocidal killing spree.

She won the battle. They surrendered.

She burned them all. She took the city by fire and blood.

Then after she attained her goal, she turned into the Hitler of Westeros for no reason.

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b-b-b-b-but MuH sUbVerSioN
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So much of this is "waaah my characters didn't get the ending I thought they should". A lot of it is bad writing, but the Dany heel turn had been telegraphed as far back as season fucking 2. Just because you want something for a character doesn't mean you'll get it.
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ScazarMeltex posted...

So much of this is "waaah my characters didn't get the ending I thought they should". A lot of it is bad writing, but the Dany heel turn had been telegraphed as far back as season fucking 2. Just because you want something for a character doesn't mean you'll get it.

No one (sane) is mad she turned into her fated "mad queen" just that it was all compressed into one or two episodes compared to seasons of development going the other way.
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Yeah the writing has been shit but Dany going mad has been set up for forever

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...its been done

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f8BlPDNLpQ" data-time="
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Funkydog posted...

ScazarMeltex posted...

So much of this is "waaah my characters didn't get the ending I thought they should". A lot of it is bad writing, but the Dany heel turn had been telegraphed as far back as season fucking 2. Just because you want something for a character doesn't mean you'll get it.

No one (sane) is mad she turned into her fated "mad queen" just that it was all compressed into one or two episodes compared to seasons of development going the other way.

I agree there, but I don't really know who to blame for it. 6 Episodes isn't a ton of time to get things done, especially when 2 of those episodes are entirely battle. So who made that call I guess is the question. HBO? Did they not what to do another full season? The writers? The actors? Somewhere someone is to blame for the truncated development of the season and all that has occurred because of it.
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ScazarMeltex posted...

Funkydog posted...

ScazarMeltex posted...

So much of this is "waaah my characters didn't get the ending I thought they should". A lot of it is bad writing, but the Dany heel turn had been telegraphed as far back as season fucking 2. Just because you want something for a character doesn't mean you'll get it.

No one (sane) is mad she turned into her fated "mad queen" just that it was all compressed into one or two episodes compared to seasons of development going the other way.

I agree there, but I don't really know who to blame for it. 6 Episodes isn't a ton of time to get things done, especially when 2 of those episodes are entirely battle. So who made that call I guess is the question. HBO? Did they not what to do another full season? The writers? The actors? Somewhere someone is to blame for the truncated development of the season and all that has occurred because of it.

D&D are fully to blame.

They refused to extend it, despite HBO asking them.
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ScazarMeltex posted...

So much of this is "waaah my characters didn't get the ending I thought they should". A lot of it is bad writing, but the Dany heel turn had been telegraphed as far back as season fucking 2. Just because you want something for a character doesn't mean you'll get it.

And if you watch the video in the OP it explains why thats bullshit. Literally nothing she has done has been any worse or more monstrous than what any of the other lords in the series have done.

Im fine with Dany becoming the villain. Im not fine with that transformation being done in literally 2 episodes
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Dany: *continually says she will take what's hers in fire and blood*

Dany: *takes what is hers in fire and blood*

Fans: *shocked pikachu.jpg*
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But I enjoy it, and when people whinge, I feel the need to remind them that they're whinging.
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Heineken14 posted...

Dany: *continually says she will take what's hers in fire and blood*

Dany: *takes what is hers in fire and blood*

Fans: *shocked pikachu.jpg*

Yes, with fire and the blood of her enemies, not innocent civilians.

She has literally made it a point the entire series to be merciful toward and protect the innocent. Yes, she can be merciless, but thats directed at her enemies. The civilians of KL are not her enemies.

This would be like Dany walking into Mereen and not only killing the slave owners, but the slaves as well.
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Nah Dany was fine. Its been a long time coming.
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ScazarMeltex posted...

So much of this is "waaah my characters didn't get the ending I thought they should". A lot of it is bad writing, but the Dany heel turn had been telegraphed as far back as season fucking 2. Just because you want something for a character doesn't mean you'll get it.

This is exactly what this is. A heel turn.

I expected that Dany would end up killing a bunch of innocent people while Cersei was using them as meat shields to hide behind, and in doing so would be forced to kill lots of innocents.

Or maybe as she was strafing the city she would accidentally set off some of the wildfire caches and they would be responsible for most of the deaths.

Instead we have her legit genocide the entire city street by street for no reason at all. Absolutely out of nowhere.

And there's people defending this.

Dany has NEVER killed for amusement, fun, or indiscriminately.

The same Dany that rescued women from the Dothraki raping and pillaging.

The same Dany that locked up her own dragons because a single innocent child was burned to death.

Dany has given out justice and violence to people who deserved it and people who were her enemies.

They spent 7 seasons showing Dany being pretty damn nice by Westeros standards then do a complete 180 and say "well she burned people before!".

No shit. She burned enemies on the battlefield and burned people in execution.

She crucified the masters who were slave owners and has just killed hundreds of children themselves just to make a point.

She locked her handmaiden and the king of Qarth in a vault because they literally tried to steal her dragons and have her killed.

Dany has never once in the story just killed for shits and giggles like a Ramsay or Joffrey.

So where exactly was this "telegraphed"?

Two episodes ago Dany sacrificed her army and risked her own life to save the world from the threat of the whitewalkers.

Today after she single handedly burned the Iron Fleet, the Lannister army, the Golden Company, and the city defenses she decides to go on a genocidal killing spree.

She won the battle. They surrendered.

She burned them all. She took the city by fire and blood.

Then after she attained her goal, she turned into the Hitler of Westeros for no reason.

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Funkydog posted...

ScazarMeltex posted...

So much of this is "waaah my characters didn't get the ending I thought they should". A lot of it is bad writing, but the Dany heel turn had been telegraphed as far back as season fucking 2. Just because you want something for a character doesn't mean you'll get it.

No one (sane) is mad she turned into her fated "mad queen" just that it was all compressed into one or two episodes compared to seasons of development going the other way.

Agreed. I still don't mind it because there was enough foreshadowing (I mean christ, how could anybody with that many titles and honorifics not actually be a selfish and self-centered dick?) but even still the decline from reasonable to mad was a STEEP one. Yokes.
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So this whole thing is just entitled nerds.
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Heineken14 posted...

Dany: *continually says she will take what's hers in fire and blood*

Dany: *takes what is hers in fire and blood*

Fans: *shocked pikachu.jpg*

Hah. This. No sane person says such things. She's insane and people trying to assign logic to an insane, bloodthirsty, megalomaniac. And she's been like that for a while.

And sure a lot are upset Dany and Jon won't sit on the throne together. Or maybe they expected her to die a hero tragically.
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Kolibri X posted...

Heineken14 posted...

Dany: *continually says she will take what's hers in fire and blood*

Dany: *takes what is hers in fire and blood*

Fans: *shocked pikachu.jpg*

Hah. This. No sane person says such things. She's insane and people trying to assign logic to an insane, bloodthirsty, megalomaniac. And she's been like that for a while.

And sure a lot are upset Dany and Jon won't sit on the throne together. Or maybe they expected her to die a hero tragically.

Read my last post where I address this.

Dany has always been a conqueror.

She's never been a genocidal maniac.

"lol fire and blood is her motto therefore it explains why she would massacre thousands of innocent civilians after she already took the city"
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Pogo_Marimo posted...

Funkydog posted...

ScazarMeltex posted...

So much of this is "waaah my characters didn't get the ending I thought they should". A lot of it is bad writing, but the Dany heel turn had been telegraphed as far back as season fucking 2. Just because you want something for a character doesn't mean you'll get it.

No one (sane) is mad she turned into her fated "mad queen" just that it was all compressed into one or two episodes compared to seasons of development going the other way.

Agreed. I still don't mind it because there was enough foreshadowing (I mean christ, how could anybody with that many titles and honorifics not actually be a selfish and self-centered dick?) but even still the decline from reasonable to mad was a STEEP one. Yokes.

Foreshadowing is one thing, but to not actually do something with it and just have her flip a switch renders it all pointless. Compressing everything so much really hurts it all and it could be much more realistic if this was stretched out and doesn't appear to just be such a sudden change.
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BlueBoy675 posted...

Heineken14 posted...

Dany: *continually says she will take what's hers in fire and blood*

Dany: *takes what is hers in fire and blood*

Fans: *shocked pikachu.jpg*

Yes, with fire and the blood of her enemies, not innocent civilians.

She has literally made it a point the entire series to be merciful toward and protect the innocent. Yes, she can be merciless, but thats directed at her enemies. The civilians of KL are not her enemies.

This would be like Dany walking into Mereen and not only killing the slave owners, but the slaves as well.

She only spared civilians at the request of her advisors. Advisors that either died or betrayed her. She had 3 left, one she killed at the beginning. One she doesn't trust anymore because he's competition and one who has a soft spot for his family. With nothing to hold her back she went hard in the paint.
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Yeah let's not forget that it was pretty much only at the behest of Tyrion and Jorah if I recall, that she didn't do this from the minute she arrived in Westeros. Olenna pretty much advocated this approach from the word go and Dany was inclined to go along with it.
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ScazarMeltex posted...

Yeah let's not forget that it was pretty much only at the behest of Tyrion and Jorah if I recall, that she didn't do this from the minute she arrived in Westeros. Olenna pretty much advocated this approach from the word go and Dany was inclined to go along with it.

She did nothing wrong with wiping out the city defenses.

At the point the Lannister army threw down their weapons and rang the bell of surrender, that was a great victory. She should have done that as soon as she got to Westeros.

The indiscriminate and deliberate massacre of innocent civilians, actual genocide, is a HUGE REACH for her character and doesn't really make sense.
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Heineken14 posted...

Dany: *continually says she will take what's hers in fire and blood*

Dany: *takes what is hers in fire and blood*

Fans: *shocked pikachu.jpg*

remember when jon did a stupid thing and fell for ramsays trap and ran in after rickon and was fueled by emotion.

oh but when dany does it shes the mAd QuEEn.

"the hints have been there all along! like, for the last 2 episodes!"

RIP jaime's character development
RIP dany's character development
RIP my investment in this show
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TheBlueMonk_ posted...

remember when jon did a stupid thing and fell for ramsays trap and ran in after rickon and was fueled by emotion.

oh but when dany does it shes the mAd QuEEn.

"the hints have been there all along! like, for the last 2 episodes!"

RIP jaime's character development
RIP dany's character development
RIP my investment in this show

That is not even equivalent.

Dany had that equivalent in the Battle for Winterfell when she stupidly abandoned her plan to attack the zombie horde after the Dothraki ran in.

What Dany did in yesterday's episode would be like if Jon, after the Battle of the Bastards, started massacring every man, woman, and child in Winterfell.
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this season ruined sansa, dany and jaime
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Yeah pretty dumb how Jon has literally killed children yet hes not considered mad, but Daenerys kinda just flips the switch on cuz no one loves her lol
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I liked it. You may not. The defense rests.
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Don't do it TC. Not worth it.
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De Evolution posted...

Kolibri X posted...

Heineken14 posted...

Dany: *continually says she will take what's hers in fire and blood*

Dany: *takes what is hers in fire and blood*

Fans: *shocked pikachu.jpg*

Hah. This. No sane person says such things. She's insane and people trying to assign logic to an insane, bloodthirsty, megalomaniac. And she's been like that for a while.

And sure a lot are upset Dany and Jon won't sit on the throne together. Or maybe they expected her to die a hero tragically.

Read my last post where I address this.

Dany has always been a conqueror.

She's never been a genocidal maniac.

"lol fire and blood is her motto therefore it explains why she would massacre thousands of innocent civilians after she already took the city"

Shes all of those things I said earlier and history is full of charismatic but insane leaders becoming genocidal maniacs. This is literally the only thing that made sense in the episode and people are complaining about it because they've erroneously elevated Dany to hero status in their minds.
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@CyricZ posted...

Don't do it TC. Not worth it.

???
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I don't mind Dany ending up being the final big bad and turning into a mad queen... but come on at least make it convincing. This turn came absolutely out of nowhere, it was laughable
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AngelsNAirwav3s posted...

I don't mind Dany ending up being the final big bad and turning into a mad queen... but come on at least make it convincing. This turn came absolutely out of nowhere, it was laughable

Exactly. It's baffling my mind that people defending this kind of story telling refuse to see this.

People cannot be this dense.
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You know all those slavers she crucified? You know some of them weren't entirely bad, right? Her sense of justice is skewed and ruled by emotion. She often maligned that she couldn't just burn everything down, especially in Mereen.

She already chose to rule by fear now, she said it numerous times. And what better way to get the populace to fall in line than to utterly decimate a bunch of them? Makes sense to me.
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Dany had to be talked down from burning King's Landing so many times, I lost count. Tyrion spent all of Season 7 trying to keep her in check. I agree that the final turn came so fast that something about it felt unnatural. I wish that Dany's ultimate descent had been spread across more episodes. But... it was well-established and to me this always seemed like a plausible trajectory for her character arc. There might be a failure of pacing here, but not a failure of writing or planning or foreshadowing, imo.
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Final season of GoT looking to be the #1 worst and most hated in television

Polycosm posted...

Dany had to be talked down from burning King's Landing so many times, I lost count. Tyrion spent all of Season 7 trying to keep her in check. I agree that the final turn came so fast that something about it felt unnatural. I wish that Dany's ultimate descent had been spread across more episodes. But... it was well-established and to me this always seemed like a plausible trajectory for her character arc. There might be a failure of pacing here, but not a failure of writing or planning or foreshadowing, imo.

But this episode showed us that she was able to conquer King's Landing with a highly acceptable level of restraint and lack of civilian casualties.

The whole fucking reason Tyrion kept stopping her from flying into King's Landing is because they felt the collateral damage and cost of civilian life in the process would be too much. They felt it would make Dany seem unsympathetic and too much like an evil dictator.

But then in yesterday's episode Dany basically single handedly takes out the Iron Fleet, the Lannister army, all the scorpions and city defenses, and the Golden Company.

King's Landing literally surrenders and Dany WINS the battle without having to hurt many civilians.

So it proves that everything said before was total bullshit and that Dany should have went straight to King's Landing as soon as she arrived in Westeros and swiftly conquered it.

But then, after Dany has taken the city in a pretty controlled manner, she decides to say "fuck it" and burn everyone and everything to the ground, basically destroying everything she has worked so hard for right after attaining it.

That makes sense to you people.
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I think I'm most annoyed when people say "hEr aDvIsOrS HeLd hEr bAcK."

No, the fuck they didn't. Tyrion and Varys were the only ones who were wringing their hands about her attacking King's Landing and you can't even use them as an argument because this episode showed they were wrong.
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De Evolution posted...

Kolibri X posted...

Heineken14 posted...

Dany: *continually says she will take what's hers in fire and blood*

Dany: *takes what is hers in fire and blood*

Fans: *shocked pikachu.jpg*

Hah. This. No sane person says such things. She's insane and people trying to assign logic to an insane, bloodthirsty, megalomaniac. And she's been like that for a while.

And sure a lot are upset Dany and Jon won't sit on the throne together. Or maybe they expected her to die a hero tragically.

Read my last post where I address this.

Dany has always been a conqueror.

She's never been a genocidal maniac.

"lol fire and blood is her motto therefore it explains why she would massacre thousands of innocent civilians after she already took the city"

She crucified 163 alleged slavers without checking to see how many of them actually supported slavery (spoilers: some of them did not support slavery), burned a random noble because one of MANY nobles had hired the Sons of the Harpys (she had no idea if this noble was the one or not), and threatened to burn the entirety of Mereen to the ground until Tyrion talked her out of it. She has been punishing evil people, but her punishments have been equally as horrific, and not always entirely sane or just.
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You can't really defend the writing here. We've been given glimpses of what she could become, then they go balls deep in the span of three episodes. This was always a possible end for her, but they leapt farther than Arya's ass to get there as soon as possible.
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shnangyboos posted...

You can't really defend the writing here. We've been given glimpses of what she could become, then they go balls deep in the span of three episodes. This was always a possible end for her, but they leapt farther than Arya's ass to get there as soon as possible.

Oh, I agree.

The issue is with the execution of the final turn.

But people are arguing this was never her. This was always her. It was the flipside of the Targaryen coin that's been mentioned the entirety of the show.
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Deal with it.
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EmeralDragon23 posted...

shnangyboos posted...

You can't really defend the writing here. We've been given glimpses of what she could become, then they go balls deep in the span of three episodes. This was always a possible end for her, but they leapt farther than Arya's ass to get there as soon as possible.

Oh, I agree.

The issue is with the execution of the final turn.

But people are arguing this was never her. This was always her. It was the flipside of the Targaryen coin that's been mentioned the entirety of the show.

Even her going crazy is over the top. I expected she would just burn a bunch of innocents to take the city, but she was just burning people for like 40 minutes. They never convinced me her frame of mind got this bad.
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Would have made more sense if they killed the second dragon last night while the bells were ringing. Then her rage would be "justified" to the viewer and seen as mad by everyone in the show. Would have been more tragic imo.
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Which is a problem with the execution.

That she could go mad enough to burn the entire city was always a possibility they'd been building up towards (there are plenty of innocent people in Mereen, which she was also going to burn down). They just executed the actual turn poorly enough that it's not convincing.
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