Current Events > Are Catholics Christians?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Broseph_Stalin posted...

Catholics yes, Protestants no.

People actually believe this too (basically, the other side is wrong and is going to hell).

I think it's sad tbh.
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Damn_Underscore posted...

DoGCyN posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

DoGCyN posted...

In practice, they tend to put works before grace. Grace is more important.

Not if you're a total dick during your life and rely on God sparing you anyway because he can.

Well that escalated quickly.

Not really, I just don't agree with people who think that faith in Jesis is the only thing you need to be saved.

Jesus is the only thing you need to be saved in Christianity. His grace is sufficient.
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darkphoenix181 posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

What Jesus said is a metaphor within a parable. And the parable also says the last will be first. Even if the parable is talking about the stages of Christianity, do you think Protestantism is the last evolution of Christianity? And do you think Protestant Churches aren't set in their own ways just like the Catholic Church is?

Christianity is believing in and following Jesus. If you're going to include the rest of the Bible into Christianity than I hope you don't wear clothes made of different materials

My only point was the argument of "we are the firsr church" is a bad one seeing how judeo-christianity was built by usurping the idea that what comes first is best or right.

I agree, but I don't think the Catholic Church goes around advertising that they are the first church.
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Damn_Underscore posted...

I agree, but I don't think the Catholic Church goes around advertising that they are the first church.

It was already said ITT and is actually the most common argument as to why you should be catholic instead of x protestant church.
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DoGCyN posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

DoGCyN posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

DoGCyN posted...

In practice, they tend to put works before grace. Grace is more important.

Not if you're a total dick during your life and rely on God sparing you anyway because he can.

Well that escalated quickly.

Not really, I just don't agree with people who think that faith in Jesis is the only thing you need to be saved.

Jesus is the only thing you need to be saved in Christianity. His grace is sufficient.

Grace becomes a bit of a metaphysical construct however when you have so called believers rejecting his teachings.

Where did i say anyone is going to hell lmao

Protestantism was a political movement led by German princes who wanted to retain power over the Emperor and Pope.

DoGCyN posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

DoGCyN posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

DoGCyN posted...

In practice, they tend to put works before grace. Grace is more important.

Not if you're a total dick during your life and rely on God sparing you anyway because he can.

Well that escalated quickly.

Not really, I just don't agree with people who think that faith in Jesis is the only thing you need to be saved.

Jesus is the only thing you need to be saved in Christianity. His grace is sufficient.

John 3:16 and 18 alone are not Christianity.

Here's John 3:19-21

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
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Broseph_Stalin posted...

Where did i say anyone is going to hell lmao

Protestantism was a political movement led by German princes who wanted to retain power over the Emperor and Pope.

That is what Catholics who dislike Protestants/Protestants who dislike Catholics generally believe.

And even if Protestantism is/was only a political movement, it's only because the Catholic Church overstepped its bounds more than any organization in history...
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Damn_Underscore posted...

That is what Catholics who dislike Protestants/Protestants who dislike Catholics generally believe.

No that's what historians know because that's what happened.

Is the world's largest and oldest Christian denomination Christian?

I swear, some Protestants need to take a stick out of their ass and stop acting like their denomination has ownership of the whole faith.

Christianity is literally the easiest religion to define, which is whether or not you believe in the divinity of Christ. All the other stuff is what separates denominations.
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Why is this asinine question getting any serious discussion?

I'm also positive TC made this same topic last week
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Broseph_Stalin posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

That is what Catholics who dislike Protestants/Protestants who dislike Catholics generally believe.

No that's what historians know because that's what happened.

I meant that "the other side is wrong and is going to hell"
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UnholyMudcrab posted...

Why is this asinine question getting any serious discussion?

I'm also positive TC made this same topic last week

Because there are a load of idiots that believe that only Protestantism = Christianity (not in this topic thankfully).
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UnholyMudcrab posted...

Why is this asinine question getting any serious discussion?

I'm also positive TC made this same topic last week

We rarely get to discuss Christianity or religion in general on CE, CE is mostly atheists or at least non-religious people.
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Do I sound religious to you? No one is saying anything about going to a fictional place.

Protestantism being a political movement is historical fact.

Broseph_Stalin posted...

Do I sound religious to you? No one is saying anything about going to a fictional place.

Protestantism being a political movement is historical fact.

Your first post in this topic was that Protestants aren't actually Christians...
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knutjob posted...

DoGCyN posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

DoGCyN posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

DoGCyN posted...

In practice, they tend to put works before grace. Grace is more important.

Not if you're a total dick during your life and rely on God sparing you anyway because he can.

Well that escalated quickly.

Not really, I just don't agree with people who think that faith in Jesis is the only thing you need to be saved.

Jesus is the only thing you need to be saved in Christianity. His grace is sufficient.

Grace becomes a bit of a metaphysical construct however when you have so called believers rejecting his teachings.

That's a fair point.
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Damn_Underscore posted...

Your first post in this topic was that Protestants aren't actually Christians...

I think there is a difference between a church founded by the disciples of Jesus and a group of people (who were forcefully converted to Christianity) rebelling for personal gain.

But that's a secular look on it. Religion doesn't make use of reason so they can describe anything as anything.

The nuance is:

Christian : anyone who believes in Jesus

But believing in Jesus means believing the scripture that says many will say to me lord lord but I will say depart I never knew you.

That makes this topic more complex.

Like, anyone can say they are a liberal. Well I guess you can say that but then claim to like Trump and many will say you lie and are actually alt right.
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knutjob posted...

DoGCyN posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

DoGCyN posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

DoGCyN posted...

In practice, they tend to put works before grace. Grace is more important.

Not if you're a total dick during your life and rely on God sparing you anyway because he can.

Well that escalated quickly.

Not really, I just don't agree with people who think that faith in Jesis is the only thing you need to be saved.

Jesus is the only thing you need to be saved in Christianity. His grace is sufficient.

Grace becomes a bit of a metaphysical construct however when you have so called believers rejecting his teachings.

I don't agree with this take either, not on principle, but because people who say this often have impossible standards. Like if you live comfortably or have money/care about your finances, you've rejected Jesus' teachings.

I'm not trying to make this personal at all, it's just an observation I've had.
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Broseph_Stalin posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

Your first post in this topic was that Protestants aren't actually Christians...

I think there is a difference between a church founded by the disciples of Jesus and a group of people (who were forcefully converted to Christianity) rebelling for personal gain.

But that's a secular look on it. Religion doesn't make use of reason so they can describe anything as anything.

Would you say Judas is a christian?

I just wondering how your secular logic considers the betrayer of Christ who was one of the 12 apostles, the first of all followers.
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Damn_Underscore posted...

John 3:16 and 18 alone are not Christianity.

Here's John 3:19-21

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

I don't see how this helps your case. If Jesus is the light, then this verse says he's being rejected by people because they loved and worshiped other worldly things.

Galatians 2:21: I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

John 14:6: Jesus said to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Romans 5:8-9: 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from Gods wrath through him!

Jesus comes first. One becomes a Christian. All works follow after that.

Catholics tend to reverse that order.
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Here's the thing about Judas:

When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. I have sinned, he said, for I have betrayed innocent blood.

What is that to us? they replied. Thats your responsibility.

So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

Judas obviously deeply regretted what he did. What were Judas' inner thoughts and what did God do to him after he died? No one knows.
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Yes and non catholics aren't Christians

You wanna drink coke, not some generic store brand

I need a male virgin preaching the good word
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DoGCyN posted...

Jesus comes first. One becomes a Christian. All works follow after that.

Catholics tend to reverse that order.

Think about the real world. Are all good people from non-Christian cultures just automatically condemned? There's no way. And Jesus' teachings are very universal. It's possible for someone to follow Jesus without even realizing it.

Either way, Jesus constantly talks about the importance of good actions throughout the Gospels.
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Damn_Underscore posted...

knutjob posted...

DoGCyN posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

DoGCyN posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

DoGCyN posted...

In practice, they tend to put works before grace. Grace is more important.

Not if you're a total dick during your life and rely on God sparing you anyway because he can.

Well that escalated quickly.

Not really, I just don't agree with people who think that faith in Jesis is the only thing you need to be saved.

Jesus is the only thing you need to be saved in Christianity. His grace is sufficient.

Grace becomes a bit of a metaphysical construct however when you have so called believers rejecting his teachings.

I don't agree with this take either, not on principle, but because people who say this often have impossible standards. Like if you live comfortably or have money/care about your finances, you've rejected Jesus' teachings.

I'm not trying to make this personal at all, it's just an observation I've had.

I think this is fair tbh That said I think there is a distinction between someone who tries to follow the word of Christ and someone who thinks they don't need to because they 'have grace'.

knutjob posted...

I think this is fair tbh That said I think there is a distinction between someone who tries to follow the word of Christ and someone who thinks they don't need to because they 'have grace'.

Yeah, I definitely agree.
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Damn_Underscore posted...

Think about the real world. Are all good people from non-Christian cultures just automatically condemned? There's no way. And Jesus' teachings are very universal. It's possible for someone to follow Jesus without even realizing it.

From a Christian perspective, there are no good people. You become a good person by having no sin, and the only way to have no sin is to have Jesus in your life.

Don't get me wrong, I actually agree with your principle, but from a Christian perspective it just unfortunately doesn't work that way.
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knutjob posted...

I think there is a distinction between someone who tries to follow the word of Christ and someone who thinks they don't need to because they 'have grace'.

100% agreed.
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DoGCyN posted...

Don't get me wrong, I actually agree with your principle, but from a Christian perspective it just unfortunately doesn't work that way.

Says who?

As humans we can only interpret what we read in the Bible. I doubt anyone on Earth has had or ever will have a perfect understanding of God and Jesus.

In the end only God can decide what happens to us.
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Damn_Underscore posted...

Says who?

The very thing Christianity is derived from.
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GoodOlJr posted...

Yes and non catholics aren't Christians

You wanna drink coke, not some generic store brand

I need a male virgin preaching the good word

My my.
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DoGCyN posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

Says who?

The very thing Christianity is derived from.

The Gospels are far from direct.

Only in rare cases does Jesus explain the meaning of what he said or does the Gospel directly explain what Jesus meant.
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Damn_Underscore posted...

DoGCyN posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

Says who?

The very thing Christianity is derived from.

The Gospels are far from direct.

Only in rare cases does Jesus explain the meaning of what he said or does the Gospel directly explain what Jesus meant.

No man cometh unto the father but by me.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved

He that believeth not, shall be
Damned

Seems pretty direct
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And then you have passages that talk about the importance of good actions, such as

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

The entire Sermon on the Mount

"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field."

"A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

He replied to him,"Who is my mother, and who are my brothers? Pointing to his disciples, he said, Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

Not to mention all the other times he speaks in metaphors and parables (which is most of what he says).

The point is you have to interpret the Gospels for yourself.
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DoGCyN posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

Think about the real world. Are all good people from non-Christian cultures just automatically condemned? There's no way. And Jesus' teachings are very universal. It's possible for someone to follow Jesus without even realizing it.

From a Christian perspective, there are no good people. You become a good person by having no sin, and the only way to have no sin is to have Jesus in your life.

Don't get me wrong, I actually agree with your principle, but from a Christian perspective it just unfortunately doesn't work that way.

@Damn_Underscore

What does your above post have to do with this context?

I thought the argument was about salvation without christ?

Faith only is not biblically supported.

But as to the idea of salvation without Jesus just because you are a "good man"

The verse says scarcely the righteous will be saved

Nevertheless God also says he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy but to expect a thief on the cross salvation would be an erroneous expectation
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Like I said, you have to interpret the Gospels for yourself. Some things are direct (like that Jesus came to save humanity, or the existence of hell, although we don't know exactly what hell is)

but many -most- things are not.
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Damn_Underscore posted...

Like I said, you have to interpret the Gospels for yourself. Some things are direct (like that Jesus came to save humanity, or the existence of hell, although we don't know exactly what hell is)

but many -most- things are not.

That doesn't make any sense.

If you are suggesting that it is not direct that you must be a christian then idk what bible you have been reading.

Out of everything in the new testament, that is the most direct tenet that can't be ignored.

I mean, Thessalonians literally has him come in wrath against those who know not God....and/or obey not the gospel.

Like if that is open to interpretation, I can say there is no God because it wasn't direct enough about whether God is real or not.
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but dont they worship saints and mary more than the holy trinity
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GasMonkey posted...

but dont they worship saints and mary more than the holy trinity

Yeah, that's the thing. That's putting your salvation in jeopardy, and certainly disobeying God's Word if you believe it to be the final authority in spiritual guidance.
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