Current Events > FTC beginning investigation into loot boxes

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://www.polygon.com/2018/11/27/18115365/ftc-loot-crate-investigation-senator-hassan

The Federal Trade Commission today agreed to investigate video game loot boxes, following an official request by Senator Maggie Hassan (D-N.H.).

In a Congressional oversight committee hearing earlier today, FTC chairman Joe Simons affirmed Sen. Hassans request that loot boxes be investigated. The exchange took place in a Senate Commerce subcommittee hearing that was mainly focused on data privacy issues, but which ranged into other territories.

Loot boxes are now endemic in the video game industry and are present in everything from casual smart phone games to the newest, high budget releases, said Hassan, adding that loot boxes will represent a $50 billion industry by the year 2022, likely referring to a report earlier this year ( https://www.mcvuk.com/business/loot-boxes-and-skin-gambling-to-earn-35bn-in-revenue-by-2022 ) from Juniper Research.

Games publishers often include loot boxes in their games, which offer in-game boosts and prizes, sometimes at a cost. The practice has flourished in recent years, particularly following enormous success in games like the FIFA series, but it has also been met with consumer resistance in the past year. In 2017, Electronic Arts retooled Star Wars Battlefront 2 following accusations that the game was designed around extracting cash from players through loot crates.

Hassan warned that children are particularly susceptible to loot boxes, and that they represent a close link to gambling. She pointed to moves in other countries, including Japan, the Netherlands and Belgium, to bring in legislation to control the use of video game loot boxes. Last year, Reps. Chris Lee and Sean Quinlan held a news conference in Hawaii that assailed loot crates for preying on children.

Earlier this year, Senator Hassan wrote to the Entertainment Software Rating Board to ask how games with loot boxes are rated. The ESRB later added an in-game purchases label to games that include loot crates.

Its time for the FTC to investigate these mechanisms to ensure that children are being adequately protected, said Hassan. And to educate parents about potential addiction and other negative impacts of these games. She asked Simons if the FTC will investigate further and report back. Simons offered a simple yes.

Polygon has requested comment from the Entertainment Software Association, which represents the government-level interests of games publishers.

The ESA:

Update: The ESA sent us the following statement: Loot boxes are one way that players can enhance the experience that video games offer. Contrary to assertions, loot boxes are not gambling. They have no real-world value, players always receive something that enhances their experience, and they are entirely optional to purchase. They can enhance the experience for those who choose to use them, but have no impact on those who do not.

That's a joke if I ever heard one.
---

The ESA is just a corporate mouthpiece. Absolute trash
---

Fuck the ESA.
---

I'm OK with this. Fuck loot boxes. Especially in games I've already paid full price for.
---

Democrats, fighting the really important battles lmao

The industry fucked up. They should have nipped this in the bud before action like this had to take place.
---

I can't wait for people to get angry when the FTC nerfs more than just loot boxes.
---

i'm looking forward to the part where publishers get some measly fine, and they pay it off with the billions they've made in loot boxes
---

Thank god
---

Tyranthraxus posted...

Hassan warned that children are particularly susceptible to loot boxes, and that they represent a close link to gambling.

As noted by Frank Zappa, many years ago, children don't have incomes.

Well, one of the things that has been brought up before is talking about very young children getting access to the material that they have been showing here today. And what I have said to that in the past is a teenager may go into a record store unescorted with $8.98 in his pocket, but very young children do not.

If they go into a record store, the $8.98 is in mom or dad's pocket, and they can always say, Johnny, buy a book. They can say, Johnny, buy instrumental music; there is some nice classical music for you here; why do you not listen to that.

The parent can ask or guide the child in another direction, away from Sheena Easton, Prince, or whoever else you have been complaining about. There is always that possibility.

Ehh I don't really have a problem with some games loot box system.
Overwatch for example. They constantly put out free updates. New characters, maps, game modes, etc..
Loot boxes are optional. They are purely aesthetic and have no effect on game play. And you can "earn" them for free.
I see no problem at all with this.
---

Good. Just let me buy what i want instead of gambling for a chance at it
---

Thaddeus_J_Pibb posted...

Democrats, fighting the really important battles lmao

I'm a conservative and I'm happy af to see the FTC finally looking into it.
---

Loot boxes are a plague.
---

ShotgunSilencer posted...

Ehh I don't really have a problem with some games loot box system.
Overwatch for example. They constantly put out free updates. New characters, maps, game modes, etc..
Loot boxes are optional. They are purely aesthetic and have no effect on game play. And you can "earn" them for free.
I see no problem at all with this.

This argument is bullshit and fundamentally wrong about the problem.
---

Tyranthraxus posted...

This argument is bullshit and fundamentally wrong about the problem.

what problem?

ShotgunSilencer posted...

Ehh I don't really have a problem with some games loot box system.
Overwatch for example. They constantly put out free updates. New characters, maps, game modes, etc..
Loot boxes are optional. They are purely aesthetic and have no effect on game play. And you can "earn" them for free.
I see no problem at all with this.

Eh, Overwatch is still trash.

Most every time you open a loot box its going to be filled with junk you wont even look twice at or have no interest in. Profile pics, spray paint, victory poses for characters youll never use.

It wouldnt be so bad if you had the ability to buy what you wanted, but you dont. The only way to get specific items is to use credits which are also exclusive to the loot box system.

There isnt anything lootboxes do that a direct market doesnt do better. They literally only exist to hack players brains and feed an addiction to maintain engagement. Its 100 percent exploitation for profit.
---

Questionmarktarius posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

This argument is bullshit and fundamentally wrong about the problem.

what problem?

"It's just cosmetic" is a bunk argument.

If you think cosmetics don't matter

Here is your new wardrobe:


Here is your new hairstyle:


That's for the rest of your life. Enjoy.
---

Lootboxes and F2P money pits need to be banned in the US.
---

Tyranthraxus posted...

That's for the rest of your life. Enjoy.

Incidentally, that's my XBL avatar.
http://avatar.xboxlive.com/avatar/NoGamertagHere/avatar-body.png

DuranOfForcena posted...

snesmaster40 posted...

I can't wait for people to get angry when the FTC nerfs more than just loot boxes.

what else exactly do you think they are going to nerf that people are gonna be angry about? last time i checked, most gamers are against shady monetization practices like loot boxes.

I'm not sure exactly, but getting governments to intervene could only lead to bad things.

Oh, and that last bit isn't exactly true or else most of the shady onitization wouldn't be still around. EA and Activision even made billions.
https://www.denofgeek.com/us/games/ea/277088/ea-activision-79-billion-microtransactions
---

DuranOfForcena posted...

snesmaster40 posted...

I can't wait for people to get angry when the FTC nerfs more than just loot boxes.

what else exactly do you think they are going to nerf that people are gonna be angry about? last time i checked, most gamers are against shady monetization practices like loot boxes.

"Gems", probably.

Overwatchs system isnt bad IMO
---

it sorta bothers me when anti-lootbox stuff focuses too much on children because it makes it sound like the issue is mostly "children don't know what they're doing and must be protected". Which is at least somewhat true, so it doesn't stand out as that odd, but it obscures the more sinister "publishers are psychologically exploiting players to deliberately foster an addiction to gambling/gamblingesque mechanics"

children are not the only victims of this
---

kirbymuncher posted...

"publishers are psychologically exploiting players to deliberately foster an addiction to gambling/gamblingesque mechanics"

Let's not get "esque" involved here. It's completely gambling, regardless of always getting something.

But, the precedents set in banning lootboxes also apply to capsule vending machines, baseball cards, trading card games, any given "blind buy" anything, and probably even "collect them all" cereal-box pack-ins.

I'm gonna laugh when the FTCs response is to tax loot boxes
---

They prey on ocd adults. It is wrong.
---

PoopPotato posted...

I'm gonna laugh when the FTCs response is to tax loot boxes

I don't think the FTC can just tax transactions like that.
---

Questionmarktarius posted...

But, the precedents set in banning lootboxes also apply to capsule vending machines, baseball cards, trading card games, any given "blind buy" anything, and probably even "collect them all" cereal-box pack-ins.

these are all much harder to inadvertantly purchase in massive quantities and (for some of them, at least) resaleable. which are both significant, the first more than the second

games tend to use a passthrough digital currency (eg gems / stones / gold / etc) and aren't actually buying a physical thing, which makes it easier to spend an absurd amount without really realizing it
---

kirbymuncher posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

But, the precedents set in banning lootboxes also apply to capsule vending machines, baseball cards, trading card games, any given "blind buy" anything, and probably even "collect them all" cereal-box pack-ins.

these are all much harder to inadvertantly purchase in massive quantities and (for some of them, at least) resaleable. which are both significant, the first more than the second

games tend to use a passthrough digital currency (eg gems / stones / gold / etc) and aren't actually buying a physical thing, which makes it easier to spend an absurd amount without really realizing it

Therefore, any "ban" can be easily evaded by adding a RMA alongside, which then just lets publishers double-dip on lootboxes.

Way to go!

lol

that's not quite what I was trying to get at overall, was more just a small part of the difference

the part that I think makes the biggest difference is the ease of buying a lot in bulk and the immediate gratification (or sadness) you get from them. With something like a pack of baseball cards you only really can have either one of those rather than both.

another big thing games do that really bugs me (and this one isn't a comparison to physical stuff) is giving you some slow trickle of that premium currency usually for log-in bonus or first game of the day bonus or etc. It's a way to worm it into your schedule so that you start the game up and are bombarded by advertising every day, for what is essentially pennies. And on the every-so-often when you can actually afford to get something, you get to see first hand how cool and useful and awesome the premium currency is so that you buy more

yes I am literally complaining about getting free stuff
---

kirbymuncher posted...

yes I am literally complaining about getting free stuff

And that's the root of the issue:
"I'm angry and a little jealous, and I want you to be punished for me being a sucker!"

I have never spent any money on these sorts of things, so it's not quite that in my (and I know many others') cases. It's that I want the entire system and structure of this sort of thing to die so that it can get out of the way of games actually being good
---

kirbymuncher posted...

I have never spent any money on these sorts of things, so it's not quite that in my (and I know many others') cases. It's that I want the entire system and structure of this sort of thing to die so that it can get out of the way of games actually being good

See? You're clearly angry and a little bit jealous.

I'm not angry really, just sad

....

well maybe I'm a bit angry but I am definitely a lot more sad
---

DuranOfForcena posted...

Thaddeus_J_Pibb posted...

Democrats, fighting the really important battles lmao

what the fuck is this post

just a typical redhat post
---

Questionmarktarius posted...

kirbymuncher posted...

"publishers are psychologically exploiting players to deliberately foster an addiction to gambling/gamblingesque mechanics"

Let's not get "esque" involved here. It's completely gambling, regardless of always getting something.

But, the precedents set in banning lootboxes also apply to capsule vending machines, baseball cards, trading card games, any given "blind buy" anything, and probably even "collect them all" cereal-box pack-ins.

I can typically buy whatever I want from a capsule machine from another place that isn't a capsule machine.

You're also making some false equivalencies here. If I buy a bag of M&Ms, I'm trying to get M&Ms. I'm not trying to get a specific color of M&Ms that has a 0.5% chance of appearing. That is not the paradigm of loot boxes which hide the desirable object behind terrible odds and force you to obtain junk that the company knows you won't and/or can't use in exchange for a chance to get the item you can use.
---

kirbymuncher posted...

these are all much harder to inadvertantly purchase in massive quantities and (for some of them, at least) resaleable. which are both significant, the first more than the second

The resaleable part is actually more significant. If you pull something great that you don't want from a TCG/CCG pack you can sell it. If there's something you really want you can find someone selling it and buy it directly instead of gambling away your money hoping to obtain it by chance.
---

Good

Hope shark cards are next

Every damn game is now an unbearable grindfest bc of this shit
---

uwnim posted...

If you pull something great that you don't want from a TCG/CCG pack you can sell it. If there's something you really want you can find someone selling it and buy it directly instead of gambling away your money hoping to obtain it by chance.

The first part of this doesn't really make it any less gambling, though. In fact, spending money for a chance to get money is basically how gambling works.

The big thing is that it enables the second part of this statement, which is that it becomes possible to by individual contents of packs directly
---

Loot boxes are shady has fuck and I wouldn't miss them if they were gone. Of course the fear is that if the government gets involved in this aspect of gaming using the "gotta protect the kids" justification, that they might get involved in other aspects of gaming using the same justification. I mean, using government logic, if they are are going to protect kids from gambling...what not protect them from violence too? Am I being paranoid? Probably. But when it comes to the government that's generally not unreasonable...

Grischnak posted...

Loot boxes are shady has fuck and I wouldn't miss them if they were gone. Of course the fear is that if the government gets involved in this aspect of gaming using the "gotta protect the kids" justification, that they might get involved in other aspects of gaming using the same justification. I mean, using government logic, if they are are going to protect kids from gambling...what not protect them from violence too? Am I being paranoid? Probably. But when it comes to the government that's generally not unreasonable...

There's already regulations to protect them from violence.
---

My question is will any of this even do anything? The U.S. government is almost entirely controlled by corporate lobbyists
---

GrindcoreShark posted...

My question is will any of this even do anything? The U.S. government is almost entirely controlled by corporate lobbyists

By declaring Loot Boxes to be gambling, this would compel the ESRB to rate all those games AO which means we'd see a lot less of them stinking up our shit like Overwatch, Fortnite, etc.
---

Tyranthraxus posted...

GrindcoreShark posted...

My question is will any of this even do anything? The U.S. government is almost entirely controlled by corporate lobbyists

By declaring Loot Boxes to be gambling, this would compel the ESRB to rate all those games AO which means we'd see a lot less of them stinking up our shit like Overwatch, Fortnite, etc.

But will they with the influence of lobbyists being so strong?
---

GrindcoreShark posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

GrindcoreShark posted...

My question is will any of this even do anything? The U.S. government is almost entirely controlled by corporate lobbyists

By declaring Loot Boxes to be gambling, this would compel the ESRB to rate all those games AO which means we'd see a lot less of them stinking up our shit like Overwatch, Fortnite, etc.

But will they with the influence of lobbyists being so strong?

Video games don't really have a lot of lobbyists. It's a near completely unregulated industry (the ESRB is not a government bureau and is functionally a self-regulatory body) and so there's nothing to lobby in favor for.
---