Current Events > My biggest problem with universal healthcare is subsidizing bad behavior.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Who the fuck keeps posting even though I literally never see or acknowledge their posts?
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Now he's triggered.
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

Who the fuck keeps posting even though I literally never see or acknowledge their posts?

What in the name of our great Lord and savior Marx has you so riled up, comrade?
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Tyranthraxus posted...

Tmaster148 posted...

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

This is why we need to switch to super-communism. How will people get morbidly obese in a society where we have bread lines? ;) ;) ;)

Who would have thought the solution to Proudclad's issues would be communism.

I love how we've come full circle

I aim to enlighten.
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

The problem in the system is a widespread lack of personal responsibility and discipline.

Ears, plugged, humming, etc.
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shut the fuck up, TC.
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That's any insurance system. What it does is make it cheaper when people act badly. Risk pool bigger = lower costs.

Proudclad, I know Ive said it before, but it will literally never be said enough

You are an absolute fucking moron, an idiot, a complete disgrace and embarassment.
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Tactical_Spork posted...


Christ shit like this is so uncalled for
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Tax the shit out of consumables that cause the problems.

For example, here in the UK, smoking actually makes our health care system a profit by a few billion (even when you factor in costs for smoking related illnesses). This is also despite the percentage of the population who smoke are one of the lowest percentages we've ever had.
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The obesity epidemic isn't high school organized sports. Bullying doesn't result in better outcomes and tougher individuals.

I don't think 90# libertarians coming down from their eggshell towers - Rand's commandments in hand, MacNuggets at their side, and holsters holding the Dew of the Mountain - are going to motivate people by flinging insults, because they're fortunate to enough to have fast metabolisms and other ways to cope with their mental health issues

Pointing out institutional, fiscal, and sociological contributers to the epidemic isn't blaming "the system" - it's presenting issues we can realistically address and propose solutions towards.

You can't begin to "fix" personal irresponsibility on a societal level as easily.

Come on. SMART goals and objectives, people. For lovers of business and professionalism, you should know this acronym

FLUFFYGERM posted...

kayoticdreamz posted...

Sure there's a lot of reasons... But eating like shit and not getting off the couch is a big one

You're wasting your breath. People who are alcoholics and smokers are obviously able to buy that shit in the first place. Marxists like Godnorgosh will refuse to acknowledge how much of an influence personal responsibility plays. This is because they have an agenda. They need to blame the "system" for everything, which is why every damn problem on earth is "systemic" in nature.

Thanks

But I try to enlighten now and then, but this site has a alot of hardcore lefties where everything has to fit in the Marxist paradigm

kayoticdreamz posted...

So there is no debt crisis?

Okay then

Not unless you work for GE, no.

There's certainly fears of a debt crisis, but fears are not a crisis.
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With the USD as strong as it is right now against other major currencies, Im not sure how looming of an issue the debt is either, at least presently.
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Kazi1212 posted...

Tactical_Spork posted...

Christ shit like this is so uncalled for

What did he say?
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Kazi1212 posted...

With the USD as strong as it is right now against other major currencies, Im not sure how looming of an issue the debt is either, at least presently.

The basic fear is a simple one: the tax cut is, as expected, increasing the federal deficit and thus the debt is rising faster than before. Meanwhile, the federal reserve has ended ZIRP and is undergoing QT, filling the market with excess bonds. The bond bull market is 100% over, and will definitely enter a cyclical bear market.

That much is undeniable. I rotated out of my holdings of BND (vanguard bond index) when I saw the fed started selling their securities.

The question is, does that mean the US government cannot borrow more money? And the answer to that is an emphatic no. There's a great deal of room to maneuver, and of course, taxes are at historical lows and can be raised, especially if they're being raised in order to pay for a public insurance option, just changing who a typical taxpayer is giving his money to.

The question should be, which would you rather pay to insure you: an efficient for-profit organization with a limited participant pool, or an inefficient not-for-profit organization with a very large participant pool.
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

Kazi1212 posted...

Tactical_Spork posted...

Christ shit like this is so uncalled for

What did he say?

Not even worth it
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Darkman124 posted...

Kazi1212 posted...

With the USD as strong as it is right now against other major currencies, Im not sure how looming of an issue the debt is either, at least presently.

The basic fear is a simple one: the tax cut is, as expected, increasing the federal deficit and thus the debt is rising faster than before. Meanwhile, the federal reserve has ended ZIRP and is undergoing QT, filling the market with excess bonds. The bond bull market is 100% over, and will definitely enter a cyclical bear market.

That much is undeniable.

The question is, does that mean the US government cannot borrow more money? And the answer to that is an emphatic no.

Most estimates put the USA in a 20-30 trillion dollar debt that doesn't include unfunded liability spending

So.... Care to explain why we have no debt crisis?

kayoticdreamz posted...

Most estimates put the USA in a 20-30 trillion dollar debt that doesn't include unfunded liability spending

So.... Care to explain why we have no debt crisis?

because those estimates are including the social security debt holdings, which are debt bought both from and by the US.

total expenditure on debt interest is 1.4% of US GDP at present. historically it has been 2%. so we're actually spending less on our debt interest than we have in the past. meaning there's lots of room to maneuver.

also it's super disingenuous to categorize 21T as 20-30T.

e:


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I just looked this up, apparently the US might have to to pay upwards of $1 trillion in interest alone on its debt by 2028 lmao

https://money.cnn.com/2018/03/15/news/economy/interest-on-the-debt/index.html
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I'm not bothering with reading through the topic but regarding the first post

If people actually have universal healthcare, they won't have to be bankrupt or in debt from medical bills (or as a result of being unable to work because insurance wouldn't cover the actual care that would resolve their issue, instead only getting the more cost effective treatment that's usually just pain killers). And as they'd have more money, they could actually try and do stuff like moving out of their mold infested home or eating food with actual nourishment and not just calorie heavy but unhealthy stuff that will keep them from being hungry. Or in the case of a few people I know of, they'd actually have a caretaker who could prepare meals for them instead of just eating what unhealthy but fast meals they can eat with zero prep time (regardless of if it triggers their allergies or other reactions).
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Kazi1212 posted...

I just looked this up, apparently the US might have to to pay upwards of $1 trillion in interest alone on its debt by 2028 lmao

https://money.cnn.com/2018/03/15/news/economy/interest-on-the-debt/index.html

if current policies are maintained, yes

they probably won't be

CRFB's estimates assume lawmakers will choose to make permanent the recent tax cuts many of which are set to expire after 2025. It also assumes Congress extends the two-year increase in spending caps that just passed as well as other expiring legislation.

that would require the GOP to retake the house in 2020, hold the presidency, and maintain control of all branches of govt for the next decade while simultaneously not succeeding in any of their social program cut proposals
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Maybe its just me, but that seems like a lot of ifs. The article also stated their estimates even if the tax cuts are set to expire as scheduled, still seems pretty daunting:

As it is, even if Congress lets the new tax and spending policies expire as scheduled, interest costs could climb to $965 billion by 2028, the CRFB estimates. That would amount to 3.3% of GDP, a record high.
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there sequester is coming back, there is going to be a big fight over the debt ceiling again and we will likely have another unnecessary shutdown
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Kazi1212 posted...

Maybe its just me, but that seems like a lot of ifs. The article also stated their estimates even if the tax cuts are set to expire as scheduled, still seems pretty daunting:

As it is, even if Congress lets the new tax and spending policies expire as scheduled, interest costs could climb to $965 billion by 2028, the CRFB estimates. That would amount to 3.3% of GDP, a record high.

i was quick to note that the tax cuts were not responsible, but the issue isn't exceeding a threshold of GDP on debt servicing, it's staying there longer-term

when we get there, we have a crisis

until then, we have money, we just have to be responsible with it. meaning, social policy expansions with tax hikes to be revenue neutral. no more tax cuts that are overtly revenue negative. probably reversal of existing ones. return to a military sequester. etc.

Balrog0 posted...

we will likely have another unnecessary shutdown

god, i hope not. those are so wasteful.
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I hope not, too. But it's really tough for me to see the incentive for Ds and Rs to play ball on any but the most basic and necessary legislation between now and 2020
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I dont think we have a debt crisis either, thats why I mentioned how strong the USD is, however it almost seems likely to me we are headed for a debt crisis 10+ years from now. Is that unreasonable assessment you think?
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Kazi1212 posted...

I dont think we have a crisis either, thats why I mentioned how strong the USD is, however it almost seems likely to me we are headed for a debt crisis 10+ years from now. Is that unreasonable assessment you think?

i think that is a rational assessment, and whether it happens will be dependent on the degree to which the US can sort out its election processes and elect leaders who the majority of the people actually want.
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I honestly doubt any election could turn the momentum around on the debt issue. Its too late in the game for that imo, and a whole lot of things have to go right to come out the other side with minimal harm
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Kazi1212 posted...

I honestly doubt any election could turn the momentum around on the debt issue. Its too late in the game for that imo, and a whole lot of things have to go right to come out the other side with minimal harm

tbh, debt issue was mostly turning around on its own pre-trump. deficit growth had slowed to a crawl under obama.

fed policy is based on the assumption that the present bull market will continue for the forseeable future and both now and in 2016, gdp was growing faster than interest rate payment size.

return to a sequester, kill the tax cuts, and you'll likely see interest/gdp expectations shrink even if the fed continues to raise rates

obv if the economy shrinks, the fed is pretty much forced to re-initiate ZIRP...which would also delay any debt crisis by another decade or so.
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To be fair, our deficit is still lower than the 2010-2012 levels I believe, though 14-16 were certainly very good years for the deficit. But the size of the interest payment in relation to our GDP growth is something important to look out for I think so it doesnt get out of hand, I dont think theres enough importance given to it.
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Christ how long did they implement ZIRP last time? Wasnt it some ungodly amount of years?
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it's definitely an important indicator, just we have to be realistic. we have not spent our history in a crisis, it is currently below historical levels, so to suggest we're in a crisis right now is to be disingenuous in service of a political agenda

to suggest our current policy combination will eventually create a crisis if unaltered is simply to speak the truth and i have no argument with that.

Kazi1212 posted...

Christ how long did they implement ZIRP last time? Wasnt it some ungodly amount of years?

yeah. and three rounds of bond-buying on top.
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Rika_Furude posted...

Not reading any of that......

the Obamanoids usually never do lol
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Balrog0 posted...

but the most basic and necessary legislation between now and 2020

i hope that is the case. less sweeping government activity plz
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Balrog0 posted...

I hope not, too. But it's really tough for me to see the incentive for Ds and Rs to play ball on any but the most basic and necessary legislation between now and 2020

That's why deadlock is great.
Neither party can ramrod idealism through.

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Who the fuck keeps posting even though I literally never see or acknowledge their posts?

What in the name of our great Lord and savior Marx has you so riled up, comrade?

Triggered af by me calling out his bullshit all the time so he ignores me now
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