Current Events > I have no doubt that Naughty Dog will make Joel evil in The Last of Us 2.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Since you play as Ellie, I'm sure theres gonna be a Joel centric subplot where wholesome lumberjack dad joins in on Ellies journey, where his grey-scale sense of morality justice and honor wont agree with Ellies motivation or approach, which will lead to an emotional confrontation about "a better way" or something concerning her cold demeanor and take-no-prisoners crusade against the people who killed her girl friend

Hes gonna try to stop her, she's gonna invite him to try, cue Joel v Ellie boss fight in act 3, with Joel's death by Ellie because hell hath no fury like a woman scorned
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Was it proven that the cure existed in the game? I wonder why they had to cut her brain open.
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ChainedRedone posted...

You have a very warped concept of evil. Evil people do harm to others because they want to. Killing people who are trying to kill your daughter isn't what most people consider evil. Then again, you're a joke so I don't know why I'm responding seriously to you.

Joel killed people just for their stuff. Food, clothes money.

His daughter died years ago.

And the people who "wanted to kill his daughter" did so to literally cure Zombieism and save the world. Something Ellie also wanted to do, so much so that Joel lied to her.

You're literally lying because you feel bad about the player character being a jerk
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LightningAce11 posted...

Was it proven that the cure existed in the game? I wonder why they had to cut her brain open.

there wasn't any proof that it would work, but Ellie was their best choice
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LightningAce11 posted...

Was it proven that the cure existed in the game? I wonder why they had to cut her brain open.

"cure" is the wrong word (and yes I know I used it in an earlier post)

It's a vaccine. They could make it so like Ellie no one else could be turned into a Zombie.

The girl's infection is like nothing I've ever seen. The cause of her immunity is uncertain. As we've seen in all past cases, the antigenic titers of the patient's Cordyceps remain high in both the serum and the cerebrospinal fluid. Blood cultures taken from the patient rapidly grow Cordyceps in fungal-media in the lab... however white blood cell lines, including percentages and absolute-counts, are completely normal. There is no elevation of pro-inflammatory cytokines, and an MRI of the brain shows no evidence of fungal-growth in the limbic regions, which would normally accompany the prodrome of aggression in infected patients.

We must find a way to replicate this state under laboratory conditions. We're about to hit a milestone in human history equal to the discovery of penicillin. After years of wandering in circles, we're about to come home, make a difference, and bring the human race back into control of its own destiny. All of our sacrifices and the hundreds of men and women who've bled for this cause, or worse, will not be in vain.
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2 Joel 2 Furious
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boxington posted...

LightningAce11 posted...

Was it proven that the cure existed in the game? I wonder why they had to cut her brain open.

there wasn't any proof that it would work, but Ellie was their best choice

Honestly I hate this "The vaccine wouldn't work" argument.

If you take that approach then it totally guts the meaning of the game/ending and makes characters like Marlene into complete idiots.

The game only stands up from a narrative standpoint if the Ellie is a last best hope of a vaccine. Take that away and the game is just dumb and all it's meaning is lost.

All just to pretend Joel isn't a psychopath even tho he still is even if you pretend there was no vaccine

It's barmy
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I wasn't saying that it wouldn't work, just that there wasn't any "proof"

but from what was presented in the game, I think that the vaccine would have worked
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Joel killed people just for their stuff. Food, clothes money.

I don't remember him killing anyone for clothes or money. Sounds like you're making stuff up. Don't you have anything better to do than to make up fantasy plot
lines so you can argue about it on gamefaqs?
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boxington posted...

I wasn't saying that it wouldn't work, just that there wasn't any "proof"

Sure but from a narrative perspective, the story only works if it would work.

There's no proof that Death Star wouldn't have just malfunctioned and self-destructed 7 seconds later if the rebels never attacked it.

But everything in the work and the entire plot/emotion/meaning of the piece says otherwise. It's such a silly argument.

All just to say "Nah, Joel was totally justified in selfishly lying and murdering all those innocent people who just saved his life." it's madness.
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ChainedRedone posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

Joel killed people just for their stuff. Food, clothes money.

I don't remember him killing anyone for clothes or money. Sounds like you're making stuff up. Don't you have anything better to do than to make up fantasy plot
lines so you can argue about it on gamefaqs?

He did, just not on-screen or during the main game. It's alluded to that he did in the past though.
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ChainedRedone posted...

I don't remember him killing anyone for clothes or money.

When raiders fail to ambush you by pretending to be injured (and in the ensuring picking of the corpses afterwards) Joel flat out says to Ellie that he's done the same thing and that's why he recongized it.

He's also heavily established right from the get go to be perfectly okay with murdering and only interested in money/survival. So much so that him and his brother fell out over it.

If Ellie didn't exist or died and Joel got kicked out of the safe-zone, he'd have no qualms about joining a gang like those raiders.
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Tommy's dialogue basically also points to him having PTSD from his days with Joel, iirc
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Smashingpmkns posted...

Just because the world goes to shit doesn't mean you should kill innocent people.

Survival is survival. When mushroom zombies rise up you survive any way you can.

If he took joy in what he did you could say he was evil.
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RiderofHogs posted...

Survival is survival. When mushroom zombies rise up you survive any way you can.

1. Bullshit. Joel's brother and Marlene already demonstrated that's not true.

2. Joel's actions go way beyond survival and to the point of just being selfish. Joel isn't killing people because he has to to survive, he's killing and lying to people because he wants things they have.

He's evil.
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RiderofHogs posted...

Smashingpmkns posted...

Just because the world goes to shit doesn't mean you should kill innocent people.

Survival is survival. When mushroom zombies rise up you survive any way you can.

If he took joy in what he did you could say he was evil.

Theres a multitude of better, more moral ways to survive than how Joel went about it. Like Unfair said, he used to kill people for money and their supplies. It might be necessary in some situations, but just because it's necessary doesn't make it any less bad. To think he's a good guy kinda takes away from his characterization a lot imo.
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Smashingpmkns posted...

To think he's a good guy kinda takes away from his characterization a lot imo.

There are galaxies of differences between not a good guy and "evil". Prioritizing your loved one is not evil. That's some fucking kindergarten level shit of looking at the world.
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Imagine thinking the Fireflies, if they actually managed to create a vaccine, would have given it to everyone out of the kindness of their hearts.

This is the same group we know constantly attacked quarantine zones to steal food/supplies/weapons and ammo for themselves, meaning innocent people just wanting to survive get less, plus killing soldiers that keep infected and raiders out of the zones.

Heroes of justice right there, with a vaccine lording it over everyone else's heads.
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dave_is_slick posted...

Smashingpmkns posted...

To think he's a good guy kinda takes away from his characterization a lot imo.

There are galaxies of differences between not a good guy and "evil". Prioritizing your loved one is not evil. That's some fucking kindergarten level shit of looking at the world.

"Prioritizing your loved one" is such a shitty dishonest way of phrasing what he did.

As is ignoring his indifference towards casual murder and his general selfishness.

Joel is evil. Going "Hey morally gray characters exist." doesn't mean Joel isn't evil

Joel would be the villain if the camera was behind virtually anyone else.
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Smashingpmkns posted...

To think he's a good guy kinda takes away from his characterization a lot imo.

I never said he was a good guy. He is just not evil. He is an anti-hero.
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Strider102 posted...

This is the same group we know constantly attacked quarantine zones to steal food/supplies/weapons and ammo for themselves, meaning innocent people just wanting to survive get less, plus killing soldiers that keep infected and raiders out of the zones.

No that's not what happened at all.

The fireflies began in Quarantine zones due to the soldiers running it being absolutely opposive and iron-fisted. Drafting people, kidnapping children to send them to boarding schools to be trained, destroying any rights.

As a response to this revolution group, the soldiers killed a bunch of fireflies. Leading to riots. When the riots stopped they went out of control (due to random people looting and shit who didn't care about the politics) and in several quarantine zones the fireflies got kicked out as the soldiers just left once shit got real and the fireflies had no control whatsoever over the now bandits.

The battle between the soldiers and fireflies was started by the soldiers and has never been "The Fireflies burst in, kill innocent people and steal food from poor hard working soldiers." that literally never happened. They'd use up far more than they would ever gain doing that.

The battle has been "The Fireflies want to try to find a vaccine and restore some semblance of normal life." and the soldiers just don't give a fuck and want to hold what little they have as tightly as possible regardless of suffering and pointlessness.

Fireflies and Soldiers unlike Joel actually are morally gray.

Lying about the Fireflies to ignore the truth about Joel so you can pretend he didn't do anything evil just is crazy....
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Joel did the right thing

UnfairRepresent posted...

Strider102 posted...

This is the same group we know constantly attacked quarantine zones to steal food/supplies/weapons and ammo for themselves, meaning innocent people just wanting to survive get less, plus killing soldiers that keep infected and raiders out of the zones.

No that's not what happened at all.

The fireflies began in Quarantine zones due to the soldiers running it being absolutely opposive and iron-fisted. Drafting people, kidnapping children to send them to boarding schools to be trained, destroying any rights.

As a response to this revolution group, the soldiers killed a bunch of fireflies. Leading to riots. When the riots stopped they went out of control (due to random people looting and shit who didn't care about the politics) and in several quarantine zones the fireflies got kicked out as the soldiers just left once shit got real and the fireflies had no control whatsoever over the now bandits.

The battle between the soldiers and fireflies was started by the soldiers and has never been "The Fireflies burst in, kill innocent people and steal food from poor hard working soldiers." that literally never happened. They'd use up far more than they would ever gain doing that.

The battle has been "The Fireflies want to try to find a vaccine and restore some semblance of normal life." and the soldiers just don't give a fuck and want to hold what little they have as tightly as possible regardless of suffering and pointlessness.

Fireflies and Soldiers unlike Joel actually are morally gray.

Lying about the Fireflies to ignore the truth about Joel so you can pretend he didn't do anything evil just is crazy....

Except it is, after Martial Law was declared, there was rioting, not to mention the Fireflies literally committed terrorist acts and they themselves claimed responsibility, and they then demand that the government to be restored. After that 6 Fireflies were executed and that just pissed em off, because it's ok for them to commit acts of terror, but if their members are executed, oh shit watch out.

All of this is straight out backed up by the opening credits.

Also I never said anything regarding Joel being evil or good.
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Strider102 posted...

Except it is, after Martial Law was declared, there was rioting, not to mention the Fireflies literally committed terrorist acts and they themselves claimed responsibility, and they then demand that the government to be restored. After that 6 Fireflies were executed and that just pissed em off, because it's ok for them to commit acts of terror, but if their members are executed, oh shit watch out.

I don't think it is "Okay" to commit acts of terror but the concept is that it's two factions different ideas on how to handle the zombie outbreak

1. Try and fix shit

2. Give up and just squeeze everything you have out of what little you have left.

The two can't co-exist so they fight

Also they never did it to steal food or kill innocents. Which is what you claimed.

Strider102 posted...

Also I never said anything regarding Joel being evil or good.

Oh please

You entered a topic discussing whether or not Joel is good or evil doing a whole spew about bad the fireflies are and how foolish it would be to help them get a vaccine.

Don't pretend you weren't trying to justify Joel murdering all of them and lying to Ellie for his own selfish reasons. That's insulting everyone's intelligence.
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Joel isn't evil, he's pragmatic. Evil people take joy in hurting others. Nothing in TLOU suggests Joel actually enjoyed doing the terrible things he did. If anything he was ashamed of them and when he told Ellie about it you could see the shame he carried with himself about it.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Strider102 posted...

Except it is, after Martial Law was declared, there was rioting, not to mention the Fireflies literally committed terrorist acts and they themselves claimed responsibility, and they then demand that the government to be restored. After that 6 Fireflies were executed and that just pissed em off, because it's ok for them to commit acts of terror, but if their members are executed, oh shit watch out.

I don't think it is "Okay" to commit acts of terror but the concept is that it's two factions different ideas on how to handle the zombie outbreak

1. Try and fix shit

2. Give up and just squeeze everything you have out of what little you have left.

The two can't co-exist so they fight

Also they never did it to steal food or kill innocents. Which is what you claimed.

Strider102 posted...

Also I never said anything regarding Joel being evil or good.

Oh please

You entered a topic discussing whether or not Joel is good or evil doing a whole spew about bad the fireflies are and how foolish it would be to help them get a vaccine.

Don't pretend you weren't trying to justify Joel murdering all of them and lying to Ellie for his own selfish reasons. That's insulting everyone's intelligence.

Ok then. Joel wanted to see Ellie one last time, Marlene tells him no. Joel, understandably upset acts a little aggressive, gets hit. Joel mentions it should be her choice, Marlene ain't hearing it, tells another Firefly to escort him out, has no intention of returning any of his weapons and supplies, then we all know what happens next.

Is Joel evil? He's a mix of both, yeah he did awful shit and killed innocent people, but in that world who hadn't? Nobodies hands are clean in that world, not Joel's, not the Fireflies, not regular soldiers, not even Ellies. Everyone is the product of the world in which they now live in. Then there's Joel himself who actually does show remorse for things he did, you constantly see it and hear it in his voice, then he tries to justify it by saying he did what he had to do to survive, which doesn't make him right, but the reality is, with the world the way it is, the opportunities available are slim.
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LightningAce11 posted...

Was Joel really evil or just morally grey?

The latter

It's the ending that contests him a lot with people mostly
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Howl posted...

Joel isn't evil, he's pragmatic. Evil people take joy in hurting others. Nothing in TLOU suggests Joel actually enjoyed doing the terrible things he did. If anything he was ashamed of them and when he told Ellie about it you could see the shame he carried with himself about it.

You're confusing "evil" with "sadistic"

You can be an evil person and not enjoy evil things. Most evil people.

By your definition hardly anyone in real life or in fictional stories are evil.

Joel doesn't get off on killing people for his own personal gain and lying, but he still does it

Strider102 posted...

Is Joel evil? He's a mix of both, yeah he did awful shit and killed innocent people, but in that world who hadn't?

Marlene, his Brother. All those people his brother got in their own town, all those people who the raiders tricked by pretending to be hurt and then killing, all the fireflies who dedicated their lives to researching vaccines for the zombies and most of the people inside the quarantine zone.

Also it's more than killing innocent people. It's WHY he kills them. Joel kills people he doesn't have to for his own gain. Then lies to people for his own gain.

He's a selfish evil man.

He could have walked away from the Fireflies when they kindly didn't kill him despite it being in their interest to do so. Let Ellie do what she wanted to do. Go back to his brother and live happily and safely in that settlement.

Joel's choices are not about survival. They are about what he wants and fuck everyone else.
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idk, there are multiple conversations/interactions in the game that highlight the horrible things that Joel has done since the outbreak

and maybe you have to do terrible things to survive in such an environment, but the implication was that some of the things he did were notable

but maybe when society breaks down, arguments on morality are luxuries that not many people would lend themselves to
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Imagine actually believing Good and Evil exist lol. It's just do and don't and the consequences thereafter. Arguing whether or not he's "Evil" just shows you know nothing about the world.

UnfairRepresent posted...

Howl posted...

Joel isn't evil, he's pragmatic. Evil people take joy in hurting others. Nothing in TLOU suggests Joel actually enjoyed doing the terrible things he did. If anything he was ashamed of them and when he told Ellie about it you could see the shame he carried with himself about it.

You're confusing "evil" with "sadistic"

You can be an evil person and not enjoy evil things. Most evil people.

By your definition hardly anyone in real life or in fictional stories are evil.

Joel doesn't get off on killing people for his own personal gain and lying, but he still does it

Strider102 posted...

Is Joel evil? He's a mix of both, yeah he did awful shit and killed innocent people, but in that world who hadn't?

Marlene, his Brother. All those people his brother got in their own town, all those people who the raiders tricked by pretending to be hurt and then killing, all the fireflies who dedicated their lives to researching vaccines for the zombies and most of the people inside the quarantine zone.

Also it's more than killing innocent people. It's WHY he kills them. Joel kills people he doesn't have to for his own gain. Then lies to people for his own gain.

He's a selfish evil man.

He could have walked away from the Fireflies when they kindly didn't kill him despite it being in their interest to do so. Let Ellie do what she wanted to do. Go back to his brother and live happily and safely in that settlement.

Joel's choices are not about survival. They are about what he wants and fuck everyone else.

Except where do we have proof Marlene hasn't killed anyone? Tommy has killed people, it's why he left and joined the Fireflies because he didn't want to be a part of that anymore, even going so far as commenting that he still has nightmares. And again there's no evidence for or against the citizen's of Tommy's town not killing anyone. Then there's the Fireflies, who have killed people, and there's people in the zones who have killed, like Robert who operates out of a shaddy part of the zone, along with his army.

Joel admitted he killed people, to support both himself and Tommy, plus it is established that things they scavenge are not just for them, but others as well. Giving ration cards, medication, etc to others, that's why him and Tess scavenge, again as stated in the game. What he does, right or wrong benefits others.

If you were refused an opportunity to say goodbye to someone who you grew to care for, for the better part of a year,a person who was about to be killed, also being escorted out without anything, which is the equivalent of a death sentence, you would leave peacefully? Bear in mind the Fireflies took an unconcious Ellie, and immediately sedated her, without even asking if it's what she wanted.
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Joel did nothing wrong
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There's no such thing as good or evil in a zombie situation, it's all about survival, kill who you can be ready to kill even an ally to make it to that next minute and a half. It's the same story in all zombie media, that's not played for laughs, Even zombie anime and manga act like this, we all remember the orgy bus,right?
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UnfairRepresent posted...

"Prioritizing your loved one" is such a s***ty dishonest way of phrasing what he did.

As is ignoring his indifference towards casual murder and his general selfishness.

Joel is evil. Going "Hey morally gray characters exist." doesn't mean Joel isn't evil

Joel would be the villain if the camera was behind virtually anyone else.

Oh that's rich, you accusing others of being dishonest.
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why does anyone bother arguing with UR? its his gimmick he'll never admit he's wrong he'll just keep parroting the same thing over and over.

The argument that there's a difference in being sadistic and being evil is utterly asinine. Being "evil" doesn't have a lower standard than being sadistic does. Both essentially mean the same thing. A person isn't evil just from doing bad things. A person is evil because they like to do bad things.

Just look at the definition of a few words to understand this...

Evil-

1.

profoundly immoral and malevolent.

"his evil deeds"

Malevolent-

having or showing a wish to do evil to others.

"the glint of dark, malevolent eyes"

Showing a wish to do evil things to others is the standard for what makes a person malevolent or evil.

Joel never once expressed that he wanted to do the terrible things he did. Therefore by definition he wasn't evil.

GTFO UR you're wrong.
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Awesome posted...

Because hes a white male.

You guys here are obsessive about screencapping my posts so save this one and watch it happen.

Who the fuck are you
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I always loved the line from the trailers for the game. Ellie saying in a voice-over something like "You either hang onto your morals and die, or do whatever it takes to survive". Descibes Joel to a T.
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AvantgardeAClue posted...

Nah he's gonna probably die in the prologue and show up only as hallucinations because they've been very vague with his involvement in the story.

And we won't find out until the climax of the plot. I mean, that's a new and original idea that's never been done before right?
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Crazyman93 posted...

AvantgardeAClue posted...

Nah he's gonna probably die in the prologue and show up only as hallucinations because they've been very vague with his involvement in the story.

And we won't find out until the climax of the plot. I mean, that's a new and original idea that's never been done before right?

IMO the only games to have effectively done it are Black Ops 1 and Spec Ops The Line
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They just better not pull a MGS2 and make Ellie the focus.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Well yeah

Joel was evil in The Last of Us 1

It would make no sense if he suddenly wasn't in 2.

I don't remember the game can someone explain this
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Lord_Wombat posted...

Awesome posted...

Because hes a white male.

You guys here are obsessive about screencapping my posts so save this one and watch it happen.

Who the fuck are you

so rabid and angry.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

RiderofHogs posted...

Maybe by our standards, but in his universe he is not evil. An anti-hero sure, but not evil.

I don't see how in universe he is not evil.

For the reasons I listed above in my other post.

Even "In universe" he is absolutely selfish and cruel. He's a bad man and we meet several people across the Last of us who are not.

In his universe I bet the average person is just selfish and cruel. In our universe sure he is evil. But in his own there are several instances where people other than joel are just as cruel and selfish. Joel's only redeeming thing is taking care of ellie. But that whole is filled with people just like joel.
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Awesome posted...

AvantgardeAClue posted...

Nah he's gonna probably die in the prologue and show up only as hallucinations because they've been very vague with his involvement in the story.

No way they do that, that would hurt sales.

Story-wise itd be hard to pull off after the first one having them both as main characters. I love Joel and hope they did it but itd be simpler to get rid of him. However in the early trailers he was there when Ellie was going off to murder those fools. Also she has motive for revenge with or without Joel.
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boxington posted...

idk, there are multiple conversations/interactions in the game that highlight the horrible things that Joel has done since the outbreak

and maybe you have to do terrible things to survive in such an environment, but the implication was that some of the things he did were notable

but maybe when society breaks down, arguments on morality are luxuries that not many people would lend themselves to

I just give him a pass because its clear he has a conscience and can make friends when he wants. Hes a likable main character, and it seems like hes changed since his marauding days.
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PSXOnlineCCC posted...

I don't remember the game can someone explain this

Joel causually murders people, often innocents. Used to be a raider.

And Kills dozens of innocent people at the end of the game to prevent a vaccine for zombieism being created and then lies to Ellie about it all for his own selfish gain

loafy013 posted...

I always loved the line from the trailers for the game. Ellie saying in a voice-over something like "You either hang onto your morals and die, or do whatever it takes to survive". Descibes Joel to a T.

Really doesn't. Joel does plenty of things that are evil and have nothing to do with surviving. Just his own selfish gains

Howl posted...

The argument that there's a difference in being sadistic and being evil is utterly asinine

Joel never once expressed that he wanted to do the terrible things he did. Therefore by definition he wasn't evil.

GTFO UR you're wrong.

No it's not.

By your logic someone who goes around murdering women and raping children for money isn't evil if they didn't enjoy it.

Meanwhile a guy who gets off on spanking his girlfriend hard during sex because it turns him on is evil.

That's utterly nonsensical.

Sadism is usually evil but it's not the definition of evil. In fact I'd argue the vast majority of evil people both in real life and in fiction aren't sadists.

The guys who killed Christians for reading the BIble in English didn't enjoy doing that. They just thought it was God's work. So according you, they ain't evil.

On top of that you're wrong anyway. Joel DID want to do the things he did. He killed all the fireflies because he wanted Ellie. He then lied to Ellie because he wanted her. He snubbed his brother and refused to work in a peaceful settlement because he didn't want to do that.
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