Current Events > Everything You Know About Obesity Is Wrong

(+) Yeah! (+)

Fatlogic out the ass
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scar the 1 posted...

tl;dr:

Science shows that diets rarely work and that fat shaming makes things worse.

CE: *proceeds to fat shame*

Science shows that diets rarely work because people do not adhere to them or think they can somehow get away with "cheat days" as if this was somehow a test that you could cheat on.

Fad diets don't work though. These catch on because of very fast short term results.
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Th3Truth posted...

Bok_Choi posted...

Th3Truth posted...

However, it is undeniable that being lazy bums and unwilling to change themselves is a large factor for many people, pun not intended.

it's very much a chemical imbalance type deal as it was described to me, anyway

kinda a self-feeding cycle (heh)
laziness made em fat which made em depressed which made em lazy which makes em fat, etc

I agree with you that it's a lifestyle thing. Having fast and garbage food be so much easier to access than healthy foods is probably the biggest factor of them all.

Plus, shitty calorie-dense fast food is cheaper. That makes it even harder to combat.
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Bok_Choi posted...

scar the 1 posted...

So you actually don't have anything to say about the article then

i think she's saying it's bullshit to pin it on doctors

i think it's a fair point - doctors are not automatically fitness experts, they can't always develop a diet or exercise regime to help you lose weight. at the same time we should stop relying on them to be fitness experts.

Sure. But the issue was also that doctors were found to spend less time on fat patients, no? So they definitely do play a part in the systematic issues. There are some nasty anecdotes about fat people complaining about stomach pains and just getting told to lose weight. Anecdotes of course but yeah
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Tyranthraxus posted...

Science shows that diets rarely work because people do not adhere to them

And why have you chosen a folk psychological construct ("will power") to invoke as a cause, rather than actually examining the issue biologically?
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How fat is scar do we think
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scar the 1 posted...

But the issue was also that doctors were found to spend less time on fat patients, no? So they definitely do play a part in the systematic issues. There are some nasty anecdotes about fat people complaining about stomach pains and just getting told to lose weight. Anecdotes of course but yeah

Right, but doctors aren't miracle workers. They have to see other patients, and as far as I can tell they like to move from "most likely" to "least likely" in terms of causes

So if you are a land whale and your stomach hurts, I wonder where the logical assumption would be
If that person actually lost weight or just started eating better and their stomachache wasn't going away, then you'd know there's a problem.

Edit: There's no argument against the idea that all doctors obviously stand to gain from new perspectives of thinking, especially if it means their patients will actually start listening to them. The problem is... would that actually work? Or would it just lead to more people being obese because they think they will literally be "healthy at every size"
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Coffeebeanz posted...

Protip - it's not that diabetes runs in your family, the problem is that nobody runs in your family.

lol.
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COVxy posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

Science shows that diets rarely work because people do not adhere to them

And why have you chosen a folk psychological construct ("will power") to invoke as a cause, rather than actually examining the issue biologically?

Sorry I guess for a moment I thought I studied biology for four years in medical school.
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Coffeebeanz posted...

COVxy posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

Science shows that diets rarely work because people do not adhere to them

And why have you chosen a folk psychological construct ("will power") to invoke as a cause, rather than actually examining the issue biologically?

Sorry I guess for a moment I thought I studied biology for four years in medical school.

Apparently not well if you think it's sufficient to call this 'will power' and wrap it up in a tidy little bow of characteristic flaw.
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So if you are a land whale and your stomach hurts, I wonder where the logical assumption would be
If that person actually lost weight or just started eating better and their stomachache wasn't going away, then you'd know there's a problem.

Obesity is the largest risk factor for GERD and gallstones, so it stands to reason that being obese with abdominal pain may lead to the conclusion that they might be related.
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Bok_Choi posted...

scar the 1 posted...

But the issue was also that doctors were found to spend less time on fat patients, no? So they definitely do play a part in the systematic issues. There are some nasty anecdotes about fat people complaining about stomach pains and just getting told to lose weight. Anecdotes of course but yeah

Right, but doctors aren't miracle workers. They have to see other patients, and as far as I can tell they like to move from "most likely" to "least likely" in terms of causes

So if you are a land whale and your stomach hurts, I wonder where the logical assumption would be
If that person actually lost weight or just started eating better and their stomachache wasn't going away, then you'd know there's a problem.

Well it's one thing that they have to see other patients. Of course there's a big discussion to be had about whether there are enough doctors and if healthcare is properly optimized etc, but there's this:

This phenomenon is not merely anecdotal. Doctors have shorter appointments with fat patients and show less emotional rapport in the minutes they do have. Negative wordsnoncompliant, overindulgent, weak willedpop up in their medical histories with higher frequency. In one study, researchers presented doctors with case histories of patients suffering from migraines. With everything else being equal, the doctors reported that the patients who were also classified as fat had a worse attitude and were less likely to follow their advice. And thats when they see fat patients at all: In 2011, the Sun-Sentinel polled OB-GYNs in South Florida and discovered that 14 percent had barred all new patients weighing more than 200 pounds.

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COVxy posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

Science shows that diets rarely work because people do not adhere to them

And why have you chosen a folk psychological construct ("will power") to invoke as a cause, rather than actually examining the issue biologically?

the issue, biologically, is that people eat too much unhealthy things.

there are also many things that are traditionally perceived as healthy, but actually aren't, such as nuts, potatoes, corn, and skim milk.

the article, however, if you were to actually read the whole thing all the way to the end, suggests sociological causes. Poverty and fat-shaming drive people to do those things. Our infrastructure doesn't facilitate losing weight. The article mentions how very few people walk or bike to work/school and how generally people live sedentary lifestyles.
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COVxy posted...

Coffeebeanz posted...

COVxy posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

Science shows that diets rarely work because people do not adhere to them

And why have you chosen a folk psychological construct ("will power") to invoke as a cause, rather than actually examining the issue biologically?

Sorry I guess for a moment I thought I studied biology for four years in medical school.

Apparently not well if you think it's sufficient to call this 'will power' and wrap it up in a tidy little bow of characteristic flaw.

....when did I say that
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Coffeebeanz posted...

....when did I say that

Then why exactly did you respond to my post like that?

Lol. What a weird response.
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scar the 1 posted...

Well it's one thing that they have to see other patients. Of course there's a big discussion to be had about whether there are enough doctors and if healthcare is properly optimized etc, but there's this:
This phenomenon is not merely anecdotal. Doctors have shorter appointments with fat patients and show less emotional rapport in the minutes they do have. Negative wordsnoncompliant, overindulgent, weak willedpop up in their medical histories with higher frequency. In one study, researchers presented doctors with case histories of patients suffering from migraines. With everything else being equal, the doctors reported that the patients who were also classified as fat had a worse attitude and were less likely to follow their advice. And thats when they see fat patients at all: In 2011, the Sun-Sentinel polled OB-GYNs in South Florida and discovered that 14 percent had barred all new patients weighing more than 200 pounds.

lol i must have skipped over this part (if it's from the OP article)

that's actually pretty shitty but i still want to side on "doctors are humans too" on this. I'm sure you can only keep seeing the same patient coming in with sky-high blood pressure and triglyceride levels out the ass, let them know they have to stop eating unhealthily or they will risk heart disease, and then see them the next month for some other weight-related complication so many times before you get tired of it

"noncompliant" is about as neutral tone you can get for "doesn't follow instructions"
"overindulgent" shouldn't be considered so negative when it's very obviously true
"weak willed" bothers me a little because it kinda shows where the doctor's mind is at (that this patient doesn't REALLY need help, they just need to try harder)
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Tyranthraxus posted...

the issue, biologically, is that people eat too much unhealthy things

But why do obese people eat more?
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The23rdMagus posted...

...people will still be assholes. It was never about health.

Bok_Choi posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Well it's one thing that they have to see other patients. Of course there's a big discussion to be had about whether there are enough doctors and if healthcare is properly optimized etc, but there's this:
This phenomenon is not merely anecdotal. Doctors have shorter appointments with fat patients and show less emotional rapport in the minutes they do have. Negative wordsnoncompliant, overindulgent, weak willedpop up in their medical histories with higher frequency. In one study, researchers presented doctors with case histories of patients suffering from migraines. With everything else being equal, the doctors reported that the patients who were also classified as fat had a worse attitude and were less likely to follow their advice. And thats when they see fat patients at all: In 2011, the Sun-Sentinel polled OB-GYNs in South Florida and discovered that 14 percent had barred all new patients weighing more than 200 pounds.

lol i must have skipped over this part (if it's from the OP article)

that's actually pretty shitty but i still want to side on "doctors are humans too" on this. I'm sure you can only keep seeing the same patient coming in with sky-high blood pressure and triglyceride levels out the ass, let them know they have to stop eating unhealthily or they will risk heart disease, and then see them the next month for some other weight-related complication so many times before you get tired of it

"noncompliant" is about as neutral tone you can get for "doesn't follow instructions"
"overindulgent" shouldn't be considered so negative when it's very obviously true
"weak willed" bothers me a little because it kinda shows where the doctor's mind is at (that this patient doesn't REALLY need help, they just need to try harder)

Oh yeah, the article goes on to emphasize that it's not necessarily malicious intent with some anecdotes from doctors and patients, and then talks about unconscious biases. So the point isn't to blame doctors personally, rather to point out that the issue is apparent in health-care as well, and that it's damaging.
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scar the 1 posted...

Oh yeah, the article goes on to emphasize that it's not necessarily malicious intent with some anecdotes from doctors and patients, and then talks about unconscious biases. So the point isn't to blame doctors personally, rather to point out that the issue is apparent in health-care as well, and that it's damaging.

if patients are being noncompliant wouldn't that indicate it's a problem with the patients

i know that sounds backward but i think it should be considered

fat and weight are one of those things that's almost entirely a choice to many, many people out there

like i know i don't need this pie

but i won't be thinking of my doctor before I decide to eat it
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Bok_Choi posted...

if patients are being noncompliant wouldn't that indicate it's a problem with the patients

i know that sounds backward but i think it should be considered

Before making that judgement I would look closer at the study whose results you're calling into question. The summary in the OP article just says "all else being equal", implying that the same behavior was described differently when demonstrated by fat patients.
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Im all for not being a dick to someone because theyre fat. But lying to them about the health dangers is just asinine. That does more harm than good.
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scar the 1 posted...

The summary in the OP article just says "all else being equal", implying that the same behavior was described differently when demonstrated by fat patients.

it would seem to me that that's because they're fat and that's unhealthy
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Bok_Choi posted...

scar the 1 posted...

The summary in the OP article just says "all else being equal", implying that the same behavior was described differently when demonstrated by fat patients.

it would seem to me that that's because they're fat and that's unhealthy

Dozens of indicators, from vegetable consumption to regular exercise to grip strength, provide a better snapshot of someones health than looking at her from across a room.

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Look at the fat ****s in this article. My God.
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scar the 1 posted...

Dozens of indicators, from vegetable consumption to regular exercise to grip strength, provide a better snapshot of someones health than looking at her from across a room.

You can be "healthy" in every aspect but it's not a secret that just having a lot of fatty tissue on the body is taxing and renders most of that null

I'm no health expert and even I knew that
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Bok_Choi posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Dozens of indicators, from vegetable consumption to regular exercise to grip strength, provide a better snapshot of someones health than looking at her from across a room.

You can be "healthy" in every aspect but it's not a secret that just having a lot of fatty tissue on the body is taxing and renders most of that null

I'm no health expert and even I knew that

I'm not really seeing your point here. There's a documented bias that fat people are judged differently when showing the exact same symptom. Studies also show that fat people generally have shorter appointments and doctors show less emotional rapport. Like, there are clear, documented biases. Are you trying to excuse them or something?
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scar the 1 posted...

I'm not really seeing your point here. There's a documented bias that fat people are judged differently when showing the exact same symptom. Studies also show that fat people generally have shorter appointments and doctors show less emotional rapport. Like, there are clear, documented biases. Are you trying to excuse them or something?

It grosses me out to say it
but I'm literally saying maybe fat people just are noncompliant, overindulgent, and weak-willed

My point is that being fat itself isn't just another problem - it can exacerbate other problems as well.

I'm sure if you looked at people who were told to lose weight by their doctors, and DID, less of their forms would show "noncompliant" "overindulgent" or "weak-willed"
and those people would generally have healthier bodies than those who are fat

and we keep talking about these healthy fat people like they're super common or something
this is why i pointed out that zero of the people who gave anecdotes in the OP article were specified as having healthy bodies with a lot of fat, despite the article taking time to specifically mention that just being fat isn't an indicator of health and sometimes fat people are perfectly healthy
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Bok_Choi posted...

and we keep talking about these healthy fat people like they're super common or something

Studies have found that anywhere from one-third to three-quarters of people classified as obese are metabolically healthy. They show no signs of elevated blood pressure, insulin resistance or high cholesterol.

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scar the 1 posted...

Bok_Choi posted...

and we keep talking about these healthy fat people like they're super common or something

Studies have found that anywhere from one-third to three-quarters of people classified as obese are metabolically healthy. They show no signs of elevated blood pressure, insulin resistance or high cholesterol.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolically_healthy_obesity

Some research suggests that metabolically healthy obese individuals are at an increased risk of several adverse outcomes, including type 2 diabetes,[11] depressive symptoms,[12] and cardiovascular events.[13][14] Other research also suggests that although MHO individuals display a favorable metabolic profile, this does not necessarily translate into a decrease in mortality.[15] Research to date has produced conflicting results with respect to cardiovascular disease and mortality.[16] MHO individuals are at a higher risk of cardiovascular disease compared to metabolically healthy non-obese individuals, but they are also at a lower risk thereof than individuals who are both unhealthy and obese.[17][18] A 2016 meta-analysis found that MHO individuals were not at an increased risk of all-cause mortality (but were at an increased risk of cardiovascular events).[19] The relatively low risk of cardiovascular disease among people with MHO relative to metabolically unhealthy obese people has been attributed to differences in white adipose tissue function between the two groups.

Note the last two things did not have the qualifier "may" or "seemingly" or "were found to" before the statement
Being fat in itself is a problem, but it also exacerbates other problems.
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I knew you fat TC

COVxy posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

the issue, biologically, is that people eat too much unhealthy things

But why do obese people eat more?

I didn't say they eat "more"

They very well could eat more, but they don't have to. What matters is what they're eating. A bowl of pasta is much less food than a whole head of cabbage but the whole head of cabbage has rougly half the calories (or even less if it's a smaller head of cabbage).
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Bok_Choi posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Bok_Choi posted...

and we keep talking about these healthy fat people like they're super common or something

Studies have found that anywhere from one-third to three-quarters of people classified as obese are metabolically healthy. They show no signs of elevated blood pressure, insulin resistance or high cholesterol.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolically_healthy_obesity

Some research suggests that metabolically healthy obese individuals are at an increased risk of several adverse outcomes, including type 2 diabetes,[11] depressive symptoms,[12] and cardiovascular events.[13][14] Other research also suggests that although MHO individuals display a favorable metabolic profile, this does not necessarily translate into a decrease in mortality.[15] Research to date has produced conflicting results with respect to cardiovascular disease and mortality.[16] MHO individuals are at a higher risk of cardiovascular disease compared to metabolically healthy non-obese individuals, but they are also at a lower risk thereof than individuals who are both unhealthy and obese.[17][18] A 2016 meta-analysis found that MHO individuals were not at an increased risk of all-cause mortality (but were at an increased risk of cardiovascular events).[19] The relatively low risk of cardiovascular disease among people with MHO relative to metabolically unhealthy obese people has been attributed to differences in white adipose tissue function between the two groups.

Note the last two things did not have the qualifier "may" or "seemingly" or "were found to" before the statement
Being fat in itself is a problem, but it also exacerbates other problems.

Sure, what you're showing is that the jury is still out on exactly how unhealthy it is to be metabolically healthy obese. That's a far cry from the prejudice that they're non-compliant, over-indulgent and weak-willed (and keep in mind, these were just three examples of negative descriptors).
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Tyranthraxus posted...

COVxy posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

the issue, biologically, is that people eat too much unhealthy things

But why do obese people eat more?

I didn't say they eat "more"

They very well could eat more, but they don't have to. What matters is what they're eating. A bowl of pasta is much less food than a whole head of cabbage but the whole head of cabbage has rougly half the calories (or even less if it's a smaller head of cabbage).

I mean, calorically, they are intaking more.
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scar the 1 posted...

tl;dr:

Science shows that diets rarely work and that fat shaming makes things worse.

CE: *proceeds to fat shame*

I was more interested in the citations about how doctors treat fat patients. That seemed to me to be more important than fat shaming in general. The problem isn't societal attitudes, it's about how physicians are trained to deal with obesity.
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Balrog0 posted...

scar the 1 posted...

tl;dr:

Science shows that diets rarely work and that fat shaming makes things worse.

CE: *proceeds to fat shame*

I was more interested in the citations about how doctors treat fat patients. That seemed to me to be more important than fat shaming in general. The problem isn't societal attitudes, it's about how physicians are trained to deal with obesity.

Do you think that's entirely separable from societal attitudes, though?
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the article did kind of intimate that obesity and health are not synonymous, and no serious person thinks thats true, but also ceteris paribus being obese is less healthy than not being obese and no serious person thinks that isnt true

the conversation about food supply was good. health (as opposed to weight) is more complex than 'cals in cals out' and when we pretend that you can separate those two things that's when we run into problems.

but that's also obviously a behavior issue. there are two sides there. this author cites an article from a bioethicist and pans it becuase it encourages shaming fat people. well, it does, but it also talks about these other issues as well. It says that we need to do things to control obesity from the 'supply side' as well as the 'demand side' as they put it. is that really such a wrong idea? maybe fat shaming isn't the right way to do it but we also probably can't stop at system-level interventions
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scar the 1 posted...

Do you think that's entirely separable from societal attitudes, though?

nothing is entirely separable from social attitudes of course but I guess I'm questioning how much social attitudes are in the drivers seat as opposed to being downstream of the experts/policymakers/etc
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It's so easy picking up that Twinkie and shoving 3 or 4 down your throat rather than munching on a fruit or completely away from it. I was a 300lbs man once and I ate EVERYTHING. Bored eating, over eating, always snacking but I didn't drink much pop but I did down sugary drinks like juices and stuff. I finally went on my weight loss journey and 2+ years later lost 120lbs.

It's not impossible. All I'm hearing is excuses. You can still enjoy everything you've been eating. You just gotta have MODERATION. Cry me a river for all I care. You just downed half a dozen of donuts and washed it down with a milk shake and still gonna go out to the buffet for lunch.
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Diets work. "Diets" aka temporary changes, don't. It's an actual diet, how you eat food from now on. Not a two week/month fix.
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Balrog0 posted...

but that's also obviously a behavior issue. there are two sides there. this author cites an article from a bioethicist and pans it becuase it encourages shaming fat people. well, it does, but it also talks about these other issues as well. It says that we need to do things to control obesity from the 'supply side' as well as the 'demand side' as they put it. is that really such a wrong idea? maybe fat shaming isn't the right way to do it but we also probably can't stop at system-level interventions

Well no, addressing the issue on both sides sounds perfectly reasonable. But when you have scary implications (admittedly implications at this point) like that study where the stigma itself reduces life expectancy more than the condition, it's important to be careful IMO.

Balrog0 posted...

nothing is entirely separable from social attitudes of course but I guess I'm questioning how much social attitudes are in the drivers seat as opposed to being downstream of the experts

Oh sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's some kind of feedback loop situation rather than one being the source of the other.
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scar the 1 posted...

Kazi1212 posted...

Hmm so diets rarely work, but your weight is affected a lot more by what you eat? Im not sure the logic makes sense here.

I can understand the confusion. When they say that science shows diets rarely work, what they mean is that studies show most people don't manage to complete them (iirc the number cited was absurdly high, 95-98%). And even when people do lose weight, they're more likely to gain it all back. So going on a diet, like Atkins or something, is likely to fail.

This of course is separate from the fact that people eat too many calories. Honestly I thought the piece was quite interesting, especially if you skim the anecdotes. They're just there to make you feel more.

People failing to complete the diet, or stick to it in the long term, is not a failure of the diet. It's a failure of the person who can't resist going back to their old shitty eating habits.

Maybe I'm an asshole here, but none of the anecdotes made me feel sympathy for these people. Some of them, like the one I showed in my previous post, made me feel disgust for the fat woman who eats five containers of ice cream a week. I'm assuming they're half-gallons, but even five pints of ice cream a week is insane.
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COVxy posted...

I mean, calorically, they are intaking more.

Which is why I said they're eating too much unhealthy food. Not that they're eating more food than everyone else.
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Esrac posted...

Maybe I'm an asshole here, but none of the anecdotes made me feel sympathy for these people. Some of them, like the one I showed in my previous post, made me feel disgust for the fat woman who eats five containers of ice cream a week. I'm assuming they're half-gallons, but even five pints of ice cream a week is insane.

A whole pint of ice cream has as many calories as half a box of pasta.
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i can't read 4 pages of people who can't give up their fat shaming paradigm lol. imagine being mentally weaker than fat people.
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Tyranthraxus posted...

COVxy posted...

I mean, calorically, they are intaking more.

Which is why I said they're eating too much unhealthy food. Not that they're eating more food than everyone else.

I think that you'd be hard pressed to find evidence that the volume intake is the same but the content and therefore caloric value is different.

Regardless, they are intaking more calories. Why?
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COVxy posted...

Tyranthraxus posted...

COVxy posted...

I mean, calorically, they are intaking more.

Which is why I said they're eating too much unhealthy food. Not that they're eating more food than everyone else.

I think that you'd be hard pressed to find evidence that the volume intake is the same but the content and therefore caloric value is different.

Regardless, they are intaking more calories. Why?

The article explains why pretty nicely already. Poverty level and infrastructure conditions make healthy lifestyles extremely inconvenient, especially for people who are already obese.
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Tyranthraxus posted...

Esrac posted...

Maybe I'm an asshole here, but none of the anecdotes made me feel sympathy for these people. Some of them, like the one I showed in my previous post, made me feel disgust for the fat woman who eats five containers of ice cream a week. I'm assuming they're half-gallons, but even five pints of ice cream a week is insane.

A whole pint of ice cream has as many calories as half a box of pasta.

Doing some basic math, using blue bell chocolate ice cream as an example. There are 2 cups in a pint of ice cream. Each serving is 1/2 a cup. Each serving is 160 calories. Mostly sugar and saturated fat. So, that's 640 calories per pint. 64 grams of sugar.
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