Current Events > Bill Clinton's State of the Union Address (1995) was eerily similar to Trump

(+) Yeah! (+)

Interesting to know that in 1995, the democrats were on board with strengthening the border and cutting out welfare programs for illegal aliens.
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@Payzmaykr why do you blame Heather Meyer for her death rather than blame the asshole who murdered her?
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Both were also abysmal to our foreign policy as well, but at least Clinton left us with a solid surplus.
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Domestic national security isn't a partisan issue, or at least it wasn't before Trump.
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The Democrat party changed. (yeah, not "Democratic" because there's nothing Democratic left).

They might as well embrace socialism at this point. Why are they trying to hide it?
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Democrats are not anti border or think it's strong enough as is. But there is a huge difference between strengthening borders and a huge tax money wasting wall.
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Wtf we love the Clintons
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22 years ago most of the vocal leftists you're hearing were either not born or were not yet school age
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to speed the deportation of illegal immigrants who commit crimes vs to speed deportation any illegal immigrant no matter what and try to kick legal immigrants out of the country, too

Not really the same thing
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davyheinz posted...

Wtf we love the Clintons

People have always loved Bill.
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King_Hellebuyck posted...

@Payzmaykr why do you blame Heather Meyers for her death rather than blame the asshole who murdered her?

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in 1995 the net illegal immigration rate (non-citizens entering - noncitizens leaving) was positive and quite substantial

in 2016 it was negative

it's simply not a problem now, and instead is being used as a scapegoat for the problem of globalization for working class americans
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Balrog0 posted...

22 years ago most of the vocal leftists you're hearing were either not born or were not yet school age

True.
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When has the left ever been in favor of letting illegals in welfare programs?
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Anything Republicans do is with bad intentions and anything Democrats do is with good intention. And since we judge by intention alone that means it's ok to support it when the Democrats do it but oppose it when the Republicans do it.
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Caution999 posted...

They might as well embrace socialism at this point. Why are they trying to hide it?

Oh gods, that would be wonderful <3 caution999, more like cautiouslyoptimistic999
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Darkman124 posted...

in 1995 the net illegal immigration rate (non-citizens entering - noncitizens leaving) was positive and quite substantial

in 2016 it was negative

it's simply not a problem now, and instead is being used as a scapegoat for the problem of globalization for working class americans

Its going to be silly when none of the right wing trolls respond to this
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The Clintons are center-rightists.
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Spooking posted...

We're living in a time where there is a group of people that think abolishing ICE, open borders and cutting military spending is a good idea. Worrying times, indeed!

Were you even alive when ICE didn't exist
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creativerealms posted...

When has the left ever been in favor of letting illegals in welfare programs?

Now
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Darkman124 posted...

in 1995 the net illegal immigration rate (non-citizens entering - noncitizens leaving) was positive and quite substantial

in 2016 it was negative

it's simply not a problem now, and instead is being used as a scapegoat for the problem of globalization for working class americans

It's a bit reductive to simply look at the aggregate. Who's coming vs who's leaving? Are we gaining illegals across the border at an equivalent rate but losing college grads at a higher one (since they become illegal when they finish school if they haven't gained employment, so they would count towards the metric).

Also I'm not sure it's being used as a scapegoat for globalization given that Trump has also openly gone directly after globalization through things like Tariffs, criticism of existing trade deals, and cutting deals to open factories in the country. At no point during his rallying cry against the EU or NAFTA does the issue of illegal immigration come up.
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King_Hellebuyck posted...

@Payzmaykr why do you blame Heather Meyer for her death rather than blame the asshole who murdered her?

Wait is this true
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You people dont seem to understand that the illegal workers are sending our money over the border. American money leaves the American economy and goes to enrich Mexicos economy. Thats not the way we do things.
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Doom_Art posted...

King_Hellebuyck posted...

@Payzmaykr why do you blame Heather Meyer for her death rather than blame the asshole who murdered her?

Wait is this true

Yes that is what his other account is in time out for.
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Payzmaykr posted...

You people dont seem to understand that the illegal workers are sending our money over the border. American money leaves the American economy and goes to enrich Mexicos economy. Thats not the way we do things.

Legal immigrants literally do this too.
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Bill Clinton sucked big ass
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s0nicfan posted...

Darkman124 posted...

in 1995 the net illegal immigration rate (non-citizens entering - noncitizens leaving) was positive and quite substantial

in 2016 it was negative

it's simply not a problem now, and instead is being used as a scapegoat for the problem of globalization for working class americans

It's a bit reductive to simply look at the aggregate. Who's coming vs who's leaving? Are we gaining illegals across the border at an equivalent rate but losing college grads at a higher one (since they become illegal when they finish school if they haven't gained employment, so they would count towards the metric).

Also I'm not sure it's being used as a scapegoat for globalization given that Trump has also openly gone directly after globalization through things like Tariffs, criticism of existing trade deals, and cutting deals to open factories in the country. At no point during his rallying cry against the EU or NAFTA does the issue of illegal immigration come up.

Whoa whoa man what are you doing? We don't use context around these parts.

s0nicfan posted...

It's a bit reductive to simply look at the aggregate. Who's coming vs who's leaving? Are we gaining illegals across the border at an equivalent rate but losing college grads at a higher one (since they become illegal when they finish school if they haven't gained employment, so they would count towards the metric).

Also I'm not sure it's being used as a scapegoat for globalization given that Trump has also openly gone directly after globalization through things like Tariffs, criticism of existing trade deals, and cutting deals to open factories in the country. At no point during his rallying cry against the EU or NAFTA does the issue of illegal immigration come up.

It's not so much reductive as 'the best metric available' and OP is specifically opining on the 'dey took arr jerbs' tangent.

What we do know is most illegals coming in right now are violating visa terms, not crossing the border. And that most are staying >10 years. If you look at the data for foreign work visas, you see a high proportion of them go to college-educated workers, so we're likely not looking at a net brain drain.

Trump has talked the talk with tariffs/trade deals, but hasn't really walked the walk, because doing so would be far more devastating to the global economy than his existing actions have been. To actually shift globalization back to the US in force he'd need to make foreign-produced products so much more expensive that companies here who depend on them for their own manufacturing cycle (cars are often assembled here with foreign-made parts, for example) would go out of business. We're too interconnected for globalization to really be stopped effectively.

Worse, he's not actually resolving the underlying problem. The actual treatment for the population that needs help is retraining for the multitude of higher-tech positions now sitting unfilled.

But put more simply, fewer people are coming over the border now than were in 1995, and far more are leaving. Here's a plot showcasing that information.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/03/06/us/politics/undocumented-illegal-immigrants.html
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Darkman124 posted...

Worse, he's not actually resolving the underlying problem. The actual treatment for the population that needs help is retraining for the multitude of higher-tech positions now sitting unfilled.

I agree that retraining would be ideal, although given where those open positions are I don't know that it helps most of the midwest without also providing aid to allow them to move, or to provide tax breaks to companies to incentivize them to move out into the middle of nowhere.
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s0nicfan posted...

I agree that retraining would be ideal, although given where those open positions are I don't know that it helps most of the midwest without also providing aid to allow them to move, or to provide tax breaks to companies to incentivize them to move out into the middle of nowhere.

I do think that aid for relocation is a good step towards both addressing our skills shortage and assisting the longterm unemployed.

Certainly better than $12B to farmers to cover their losses in a tariff fight that will likely have little impact.
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Darkman124 posted...

s0nicfan posted...

I agree that retraining would be ideal, although given where those open positions are I don't know that it helps most of the midwest without also providing aid to allow them to move, or to provide tax breaks to companies to incentivize them to move out into the middle of nowhere.

I do think that aid for relocation is a good step towards both addressing our skills shortage and assisting the longterm unemployed.

Certainly better than $12B to farmers to cover their losses in a tariff fight that will likely have little impact.

Although I guess then you'd have to deal with the problem of property value shifts (either way up due to demand or way down due to a mass migration of poor midwesterners) for the areas where the jobs are. Either way, like so much of this it's an incredibly complicated problem with a lot of moving parts that can't be solved by slogans.
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s0nicfan posted...

Although I guess then you'd have to deal with the problem of property value shifts (either way up due to demand or way down due to a mass migration of poor midwesterners) for the areas where the jobs are. Either way, like so much of this it's an incredibly complicated problem with a lot of moving parts that can't be solved by slogans.

Yep--no question it's a complex problem. Our government should be working on it. I feel it's very sad that they really aren't.
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The democrats didnt change. At all. Bill was a big part of them moving center-right. The vocal minority of leftists has just gotten louder.
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@King_Hellebuyck posted...

Payzmaykr why do you blame Heather Meyer for her death rather than blame the asshole who murdered her?

While that may be a scumbag opinion, it has nothing to do with Bill Clinton.

I guess you couldn't counter his op but got upset about it so all you could do is bring up something unrelated?
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s0nicfan posted...

Darkman124 posted...

Worse, he's not actually resolving the underlying problem. The actual treatment for the population that needs help is retraining for the multitude of higher-tech positions now sitting unfilled.

I agree that retraining would be ideal, although given where those open positions are I don't know that it helps most of the midwest without also providing aid to allow them to move, or to provide tax breaks to companies to incentivize them to move out into the middle of nowhere.

Replacing financial incentives (tax breaks) with labor supply-side incentives (i.e., customized job training programs) would be an excellent first step in helping attract business without having to go broke doing it
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wtf we hate the clintons now
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darkphoenix181 posted...

King_Hellebuyck posted...

@Payzmaykr why do you blame Heather Meyer for her death rather than blame the asshole who murdered her?

While that may be a scumbag opinion, it has nothing to do with Bill Clinton.

I guess you couldn't counter his op but got upset about it so all you could do is bring up something unrelated?

Why am I supposed to defend Bill Clinton? I just want TC to explain why he thinks Heather Meyer is responsible for her own murder.
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King_Hellebuyck posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

King_Hellebuyck posted...

@Payzmaykr why do you blame Heather Meyer for her death rather than blame the asshole who murdered her?

While that may be a scumbag opinion, it has nothing to do with Bill Clinton.

I guess you couldn't counter his op but got upset about it so all you could do is bring up something unrelated?

Why am I supposed to defend Bill Clinton? I just want TC to explain why he thinks Heather Meyer is responsible for her own murder.

I mean, why post itt then? Do a pm or make another thread.

Otherwise it looks like you got upset with his post but couldn't come up with a counterpoint.
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darkphoenix181 posted...

King_Hellebuyck posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

King_Hellebuyck posted...

@Payzmaykr why do you blame Heather Meyer for her death rather than blame the asshole who murdered her?

While that may be a scumbag opinion, it has nothing to do with Bill Clinton.

I guess you couldn't counter his op but got upset about it so all you could do is bring up something unrelated?

Why am I supposed to defend Bill Clinton? I just want TC to explain why he thinks Heather Meyer is responsible for her own murder.

I mean, why post itt then? Do a pm or make another thread.

Otherwise it looks like you got upset with his post but couldn't come up with a counterpoint.

Thanks for your opinion.

@Payzmaykr explain how Heather Meyer is to blame for her own death
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darkphoenix181 posted...

@King_Hellebuyck posted...

Payzmaykr why do you blame Heather Meyer for her death rather than blame the asshole who murdered her?

While that may be a scumbag opinion, it has nothing to do with Bill Clinton.

I guess you couldn't counter his op but got upset about it so all you could do is bring up something unrelated?

Yeah, theyve been on about this for two days. Sheesh

If it will shut you guys up, then after having thought about it, I regret the way that I worded my post. Even though you guys used her as a tool in an argument and brought her up to make a point, it was wrong for me to be so callous about the situation. She may not have been there for noble reasons, but I shouldnt show disrespect to the deceased. My point (which you already know) is that your sides ideals played into this too, and had they not organized a rally to basically cause trouble, this could have been avoided. Nobody is blameless.

Now everyone please stay on topic.
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I'm just going to say that having a sig says "member of the fam" really helps invalidate any opinion you have.
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Payzmaykr posted...

You people dont seem to understand that the illegal workers are sending our money over the border. American money leaves the American economy and goes to enrich Mexicos economy. Thats not the way we do things.

You people don't seem to understand that the richest rich send literally trillions of dollars out of the American economy to sit in shell corporations in places like Panama and Malta.
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Tmaster148 posted...

I'm just going to say that having a sig says "member of the fam" really helps invalidate any opinion you have.

Truth.
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Tmaster148 posted...

I'm just going to say that having a sig says "member of the fam" really helps invalidate any opinion you have.

Translation: "I cannot argue back so I'll attack your character now because I have lost."
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Some good discussion brewing in here

Its almost like things have changed since then...

Caution999 posted...

Tmaster148 posted...

I'm just going to say that having a sig says "member of the fam" really helps invalidate any opinion you have.

Translation: "I cannot argue back so I'll attack your character now because I have lost."

Defending the fam is a new low for you.
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Caution999 posted...

Tmaster148 posted...

I'm just going to say that having a sig says "member of the fam" really helps invalidate any opinion you have.

Translation: "I cannot argue back so I'll attack your character now because I have lost."

But there were arguments posted. You, much like him, just disagree with them but can't actually argue them so you're highlighting someone taking a personal shot because it's easier to play the victim.

Fucking hypocrite
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