Current Events > Trump's staff tricked him into signing pro-NATO agreement

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Antifar 08/10/18 1:04:43 PM #1:	https://newrepublic.com/minutes/150599/trumps-staff-tricked-signing-pro-nato-agreement Trumps staff tricked him into signing a pro-NATO agreement. The New York Times has published a remarkable reconstruction of the July NATO meeting, the upshot of which is that the staff of President Donald Trump successfully conspired to get him to sign an agreement supporting the troubled alliance against his own policy preferences. The machinations, which were led by National Security Advisor John Bolton and Defense Secretary Jim Mattis, were done to avoid the fiasco of the June G-7 summit in Quebec, where the president ended up not signing the final communiqu. As The Times notes, In June, weeks before the meeting, Mr. Bolton sent his demand to Brussels through Kay Bailey Hutchison, the American ambassador to NATO. He wanted the NATO communiqu to be completed early, before the president left for Europe. The idea was to reach an agreement that was strongly pro-NATO, and could counteract the presidents tendency to criticize the alliance and to call for greater co-operation with Russia. The final results certainly met that objective. As summed up by The Times: Against Russian objections, the military alliance would formally invite Macedonia to join. It would establish an Atlantic Command post, hosted by the United States in Norfolk, Va., to coordinate a swift alliance response in the event of, for instance, a war in Europe between Russia and NATO allies. And, most important, allies pledged to build up their militaries and provide 30 mechanized battalions, 30 air squadrons and 30 combat vessels, all ready to use in 30 days or less, by 2020 a force to quickly respond to any attack on an alliance member. Key to the success of the whole plot was that Trump would be kept in the dark about what he was actually signing. As The Times reports, Mr. Trump was presented with only the broad outlines of what the meeting would deliver not details of the document of 79 paragraphs, running 23 pages. The thinking behind this strange manuvre is that the document Trump signed would counteract his own words. The new agreement has given American national security officials the ability to assure the public, and skittish allies, that the countrys commitment to the alliance remains intact no matter any anti-NATO tweets or interviews or statements from Mr. Trump, The Times claims. Its by no means clear that this manipulation of the president will in fact work. After all, if the President continues to deride NATO, as he has in interviews, why should anyone believe that in a crisis hell abide by words that he hasnt even read? --- kin to all that throbs <cite>Antifar posted [p:906632536] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote>https://newrepublic.com/minutes/150599/trumps-staff-tricked-signing-pro-nato-agreement <quote>Trumps staff tricked him into signing a pro-NATO agreement. The New York Times has published a remarkable reconstruction of the July NATO meeting, the upshot of which is that the staff of President Donald Trump successfully conspired to get him to sign an agreement supporting the troubled alliance against his own policy preferences. The machinations, which were led by National Security Advisor John Bolton and Defense Secretary Jim Mattis, were done to avoid the fiasco of the June G-7 summit in Quebec, where the president ended up not signing the final communiqu. As The Times notes, In June, weeks before the meeting, Mr. Bolton sent his demand to Brussels through Kay Bailey Hutchison, the American ambassador to NATO. He wanted the NATO communiqu to be completed early, before the president left for Europe. The idea was to reach an agreement that was strongly pro-NATO, and could counteract the presidents tendency to criticize the alliance and to call for greater co-operation with Russia. The final results certainly met that objective. As summed up by The Times: <quote>Against Russian objections, the military alliance would formally invite Macedonia to join. It would establish an Atlantic Command post, hosted by the United States in Norfolk, Va., to coordinate a swift alliance response in the event of, for instance, a war in Europe between Russia and NATO allies. And, most important, allies pledged to build up their militaries and provide 30 mechanized battalions, 30 air squadrons and 30 combat vessels, all ready to use in 30 days or less, by 2020 a force to quickly respond to any attack on an alliance member. </quote> Key to the success of the whole plot was that Trump would be kept in the dark about what he was actually signing. As The Times reports, Mr. Trump was presented with only the broad outlines of what the meeting would deliver not details of the document of 79 paragraphs, running 23 pages. The thinking behind this strange manuvre is that the document Trump signed would counteract his own words. The new agreement has given American national security officials the ability to assure the public, and skittish allies, that the countrys commitment to the alliance remains intact no matter any anti-NATO tweets or interviews or statements from Mr. Trump, The Times claims. Its by no means clear that this manipulation of the president will in fact work. After all, if the President continues to deride NATO, as he has in interviews, why should anyone believe that in a crisis hell abide by words that he hasnt even read?</quote></quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
BignutzisBack 08/10/18 1:15:09 PM #2:	I'm sure making it public won't backfire at all lol --- https://imgur.com/plA0Vg9 http://i.minus.com/iluvk8aR4mzC8.gif <cite>BignutzisBack posted [p:906633109] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote>I'm sure making it public won't backfire at all lol</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 08/10/18 1:17:45 PM #3:	On the one side, I think we need to show strong support for NATO. On the other side, we shouldn't literally be having presidential advisors and cabinet members actively manipulating and deceiving him to push their own desired policy. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:906633254] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote>On the one side, I think we need to show strong support for NATO. On the other side, we shouldn't literally be having presidential advisors and cabinet members actively manipulating and deceiving him to push their own desired policy.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Tappor 08/10/18 1:19:02 PM #4:	This sets a very bad precedent. Imagine what else they could get him to sign... --- *Still, Move Forward!* <cite>Tappor posted [p:906633342] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote>This sets a very bad precedent. Imagine what else they could get him to sign...</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
HylianFox 08/10/18 1:19:11 PM #5:	BignutzisBack posted... I'm sure making it public won't backfire at all lol as long as Fox News stays quiet about it --- I like my beer cold, my TV loud, and my homosexuals FUH-LAMING! - Homer Simpson Don't be a turd. - Chris Pratt <cite>HylianFox posted [p:906633349] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>BignutzisBack posted...</cite> <quote>I'm sure making it public won't backfire at all lol</quote> as long as Fox News stays quiet about it</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
thronedfire2 08/10/18 1:19:55 PM #6:	Trump will call this treason --- I could see you, but I couldn't hear you You were holding your hat in the breeze Turning away from me In this moment you were stolen... <cite>thronedfire2 posted [p:906633389] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote>Trump will call this treason</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SkittyOnWailord 08/10/18 1:21:18 PM #7:	BignutzisBack posted... I'm sure making it public won't backfire at all lol This. "We tricked the president! Hurhurhur. Let's go tell everyone about it!!" --- I'm here! I'm furry! I'll try not to shed! =^_^= i7 5820K\|Rampage V Extreme\|32GB DDR4 Ripjaws 4\|2xSLI GTX 980ti Lightning LE\|HAF 932\|Sony 55inch 4K HDR\|HTC Vive <cite>SkittyOnWailord posted [p:906633467] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>BignutzisBack posted...</cite> <quote>I'm sure making it public won't backfire at all lol</quote> This. "We tricked the president! Hurhurhur. Let's go tell everyone about it!!"</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
davyheinz 08/10/18 1:21:34 PM #8:	We shouldnt elect a moron. Hes so great! Not a moron! Wait, how did they trick him? Because he is a moron, why dont you fucking listen? --- Currently playing: Strider, Jet Force Gemini, Psychonauts, Red Dead Redemption <cite>davyheinz posted [p:906633485] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote>We shouldnt elect a moron. Hes so great! Not a moron! Wait, how did they trick him? Because he is a moron, why dont you fucking listen?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Darkman124 08/10/18 1:22:57 PM #9:	Antifar posted... Its by no means clear that this manipulation of the president will in fact work. After all, if the President continues to deride NATO, as he has in interviews, why should anyone believe that in a crisis hell abide by words that he hasnt even read? because we'll replace him by the time we need his action in a crisis, presumably. s0nicfan posted... On the other side, we shouldn't literally be having presidential advisors and cabinet members actively manipulating and deceiving him to push their own desired policy. Depends. When the alternative is Russian officials manipulating him, I choose the manipulations of American cabinet members. --- And when the hourglass has run out, eternity asks you about only one thing: whether you have lived in despair or not. <cite>Darkman124 posted [p:906633577] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>Antifar posted...</cite> <quote>Its by no means clear that this manipulation of the president will in fact work. After all, if the President continues to deride NATO, as he has in interviews, why should anyone believe that in a crisis hell abide by words that he hasnt even read? </quote> because we'll replace him by the time we need his action in a crisis, presumably. <cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>On the other side, we shouldn't literally be having presidential advisors and cabinet members actively manipulating and deceiving him to push their own desired policy. </quote> Depends. When the alternative is Russian officials manipulating him, I choose the manipulations of American cabinet members.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
BLAKUboy 08/10/18 1:24:33 PM #10:	Tappor posted... Imagine what else they could get him to sign... A resignation letter, perhaps. --- Aeris dies if she takes more damage than her current HP - Panthera https://signavatar.com/26999_s.png <cite>BLAKUboy posted [p:906633668] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>Tappor posted...</cite> <quote>Imagine what else they could get him to sign...</quote> A resignation letter, perhaps.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
HylianFox 08/10/18 1:25:55 PM #11:	Darkman124 posted... When the alternative is Russian officials manipulating him, I choose the manipulations of American cabinet members. Ultimately, Trump is really easy to manipulate and we need to take advantage of that. --- I like my beer cold, my TV loud, and my homosexuals FUH-LAMING! - Homer Simpson Don't be a turd. - Chris Pratt <cite>HylianFox posted [p:906633749] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>Darkman124 posted...</cite> <quote>When the alternative is Russian officials manipulating him, I choose the manipulations of American cabinet members.</quote> Ultimately, Trump is really easy to manipulate and we need to take advantage of that.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Tappor 08/10/18 1:26:40 PM #12:	BLAKUboy posted... Tappor posted... Imagine what else they could get him to sign... A resignation letter, perhaps. Yes, but then they wouldn't have a president to manipulate anymore --- *Still, Move Forward!* <cite>Tappor posted [p:906633797] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>BLAKUboy posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Tappor posted...</cite> <quote>Imagine what else they could get him to sign...</quote> A resignation letter, perhaps.</quote> Yes, but then they wouldn't have a president to manipulate anymore</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Darkman124 08/10/18 1:34:18 PM #13:	HylianFox posted... Ultimately, Trump is really easy to manipulate and we need to take advantage of that. While also minimizing others' taking advantage of it. By not manipulating him, Mattis et al forfeit ground to those who would use him for much more nefarious purposes. --- And when the hourglass has run out, eternity asks you about only one thing: whether you have lived in despair or not. <cite>Darkman124 posted [p:906634244] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>HylianFox posted...</cite> <quote>Ultimately, Trump is really easy to manipulate and we need to take advantage of that. </quote> While also minimizing others' taking advantage of it. By not manipulating him, Mattis et al forfeit ground to those who would use him for much more nefarious purposes.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Alphamon 08/10/18 1:35:22 PM #14:	HylianFox posted... Darkman124 posted... When the alternative is Russian officials manipulating him, I choose the manipulations of American cabinet members. Ultimately, Trump is really easy to manipulate and we need to take advantage of that. have you seen some of the psychos surrounding him? <cite>Alphamon posted [p:906634292] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>HylianFox posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Darkman124 posted...</cite> <quote>When the alternative is Russian officials manipulating him, I choose the manipulations of American cabinet members.</quote> Ultimately, Trump is really easy to manipulate and we need to take advantage of that.</quote> have you seen some of the psychos surrounding him?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Tyranthraxus 08/10/18 1:35:49 PM #15:	LMFAO The greatest people --- It says right here in Matthew 16:4 "Jesus doth not need a giant Mecha." https://imgur.com/dQgC4kv <cite>Tyranthraxus posted [p:906634321] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote>LMFAO The greatest people</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
King_Hellebuyck 08/10/18 1:37:59 PM #16:	This is amazing. I dont have a ton of trust in Mattis and Bolton but at least they arent unstable idiots. --- All Hail King Connor! Official Connor Hellebuyck fanboy <cite>King_Hellebuyck posted [p:906634451] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote>This is amazing. I dont have a ton of trust in Mattis and Bolton but at least they arent unstable idiots.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Alphamon 08/10/18 1:39:10 PM #17:	King_Hellebuyck posted... Bolton but at least they arent unstable idiots. actually he is <cite>Alphamon posted [p:906634527] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>King_Hellebuyck posted...</cite> <quote>Bolton but at least they arent unstable idiots.</quote> actually he is</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Kazi1212 08/10/18 1:44:59 PM #18:	This is the real treasonous behavior, I cant believe there isnt more outrage about a presidents own staff manipulating what the president signs. --- I don't know my gimmick "Does that sound reasonable to you?" <cite>Kazi1212 posted [p:906634869] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote>This is the real treasonous behavior, I cant believe there isnt more outrage about a presidents own staff manipulating what the president signs.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Delta_F14 08/10/18 1:49:11 PM #19:	GoodKazi1212 posted... This is the real treasonous behavior, I cant believe there isnt more outrage about a presidents own staff manipulating what the president signs. But actively going against NATO, and supporting Russia isn't? What a joke. --- Gives me conniptions <cite>Delta_F14 posted [p:906635122] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote>Good<cite>Kazi1212 posted...</cite> <quote>This is the real treasonous behavior, I cant believe there isnt more outrage about a presidents own staff manipulating what the president signs.</quote> But actively going against NATO, and supporting Russia isn't? What a joke.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Antifar 08/10/18 2:10:59 PM #20:	Kazi1212 posted... This is the real treasonous behavior, I cant believe there isnt more outrage about a presidents own staff manipulating what the president signs. Where does the buck stop? Why are Mattis and Bolton in positions to sway the president? --- kin to all that throbs <cite>Antifar posted [p:906636382] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>Kazi1212 posted...</cite> <quote>This is the real treasonous behavior, I cant believe there isnt more outrage about a presidents own staff manipulating what the president signs.</quote> Where does the buck stop? Why are Mattis and Bolton in positions to sway the president?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Kazi1212 08/10/18 2:17:43 PM #21:	Antifar posted... Kazi1212 posted... This is the real treasonous behavior, I cant believe there isnt more outrage about a presidents own staff manipulating what the president signs. Where does the buck stop? Why are Mattis and Bolton in positions to sway the president? Thats a question that can be explored later, if Trump is solely responsible for his perceived horrible staff choices, then the voters can just let him know that at the polls. But this is something that needs to be addressed immediately, this is direct treasonous behavior that is potentially ongoing on a daily basis, I cant even imagine who the hell would leak that if they participated in it. --- I don't know my gimmick "Does that sound reasonable to you?" <cite>Kazi1212 posted [p:906636800] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>Antifar posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Kazi1212 posted...</cite> <quote>This is the real treasonous behavior, I cant believe there isnt more outrage about a presidents own staff manipulating what the president signs.</quote> Where does the buck stop? Why are Mattis and Bolton in positions to sway the president?</quote> Thats a question that can be explored later, if Trump is solely responsible for his perceived horrible staff choices, then the voters can just let him know that at the polls. But this is something that needs to be addressed immediately, this is direct treasonous behavior that is potentially ongoing on a daily basis, I cant even imagine who the hell would leak that if they participated in it.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
King_Hellebuyck 08/10/18 2:19:44 PM #22:	Kazi1212 posted... Antifar posted... Kazi1212 posted... This is the real treasonous behavior, I cant believe there isnt more outrage about a presidents own staff manipulating what the president signs. Where does the buck stop? Why are Mattis and Bolton in positions to sway the president? Thats a question that can be explored later, if Trump is solely responsible for his perceived horrible staff choices, then the voters can just let him know that at the polls. But this is something that needs to be addressed immediately, this is direct treasonous behavior that is potentially ongoing on a daily basis, I cant even imagine who the hell would leak that if they participated in it. The president cant read, maybe you should start there --- All Hail King Connor! Official Connor Hellebuyck fanboy <cite>King_Hellebuyck posted [p:906636915] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>Kazi1212 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Antifar posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Kazi1212 posted...</cite> <quote>This is the real treasonous behavior, I cant believe there isnt more outrage about a presidents own staff manipulating what the president signs.</quote> Where does the buck stop? Why are Mattis and Bolton in positions to sway the president?</quote> Thats a question that can be explored later, if Trump is solely responsible for his perceived horrible staff choices, then the voters can just let him know that at the polls. But this is something that needs to be addressed immediately, this is direct treasonous behavior that is potentially ongoing on a daily basis, I cant even imagine who the hell would leak that if they participated in it.</quote> The president cant read, maybe you should start there</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Antifar 08/10/18 2:19:45 PM #23:	Is treason disloyalty to one's president, or one's country? --- kin to all that throbs <cite>Antifar posted [p:906636917] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote>Is treason disloyalty to one's president, or one's country?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
0AbsoluteZero0 08/10/18 2:21:51 PM #24:	s0nicfan posted... On the one side, I think we need to show strong support for NATO. On the other side, we shouldn't literally be having presidential advisors and cabinet members actively manipulating and deceiving him to push their own desired policy. When you elect a thin-skinned manchild with the geopolitical understanding of your average first grader, sometimes these things are necessary --- -The Admirable <cite>0AbsoluteZero0 posted [p:906637049] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>On the one side, I think we need to show strong support for NATO. On the other side, we shouldn't literally be having presidential advisors and cabinet members actively manipulating and deceiving him to push their own desired policy.</quote> When you elect a thin-skinned manchild with the geopolitical understanding of your average first grader, sometimes these things are necessary</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 08/10/18 2:24:29 PM #25:	0AbsoluteZero0 posted... s0nicfan posted... On the one side, I think we need to show strong support for NATO. On the other side, we shouldn't literally be having presidential advisors and cabinet members actively manipulating and deceiving him to push their own desired policy. When you elect a thin-skinned manchild with the geopolitical understanding of your average first grader, sometimes these things are necessary I have a simple rule I use to determine whether something is "necessary" or not. I ask myself "Would I be okay with this happening to any other president or used by the other party?" Once we say something is acceptable behavior, we have to assume it will get used by other people for things we don't support. It's why I generally hate executive action: the more one president uses it, the more any OTHER president, including ones whos agenda I don't support, can use it. We should be more reticent to cede ground when it comes to what we allow to happen in government. It can and will be used against us in the future. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:906637179] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>0AbsoluteZero0 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>On the one side, I think we need to show strong support for NATO. On the other side, we shouldn't literally be having presidential advisors and cabinet members actively manipulating and deceiving him to push their own desired policy.</quote> When you elect a thin-skinned manchild with the geopolitical understanding of your average first grader, sometimes these things are necessary</quote> I have a simple rule I use to determine whether something is "necessary" or not. I ask myself "Would I be okay with this happening to any other president or used by the other party?" Once we say something is acceptable behavior, we have to assume it will get used by other people for things we don't support. It's why I generally hate executive action: the more one president uses it, the more any OTHER president, including ones whos agenda I don't support, can use it. We should be more reticent to cede ground when it comes to what we allow to happen in government. It can and will be used against us in the future.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Antifar 08/10/18 2:27:34 PM #26:	s0nicfan posted... I ask myself "Would I be okay with this happening to any other president or used by the other party?" Once we say something is acceptable behavior, we have to assume it will get used by other people for things we don't support. Not all presidents are created equally; there's no need to pretend that they are. Trump being steered towards something by John Fucking Bolton is a different matter than, idk, if Hillary had steered Obama towards something (though I think she wouldn't have gotten as far in doing so) purely by the nature of who those people are and what they're trying to do. --- kin to all that throbs <cite>Antifar posted [p:906637364] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>I ask myself "Would I be okay with this happening to any other president or used by the other party?" Once we say something is acceptable behavior, we have to assume it will get used by other people for things we don't support. </quote> Not all presidents are created equally; there's no need to pretend that they are. Trump being steered towards something by John Fucking Bolton is a different matter than, idk, if Hillary had steered Obama towards something (though I think she wouldn't have gotten as far in doing so) purely by the nature of who those people are and what they're trying to do.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Darkman124 08/10/18 2:27:47 PM #27:	Antifar posted... Is treason disloyalty to one's president, or one's country? Country. Presidents can commit treason, after all. --- And when the hourglass has run out, eternity asks you about only one thing: whether you have lived in despair or not. <cite>Darkman124 posted [p:906637378] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>Antifar posted...</cite> <quote>Is treason disloyalty to one's president, or one's country?</quote> Country. Presidents can commit treason, after all.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Kazi1212 08/10/18 2:28:28 PM #28:	Antifar posted... Is treason disloyalty to one's president, or one's country? Ones country. The country elected Trump as president, by manipulating the most important decision maker in the US, youre effectively committing treasonous behavior against the US, the president isnt a normal private citizen. --- I don't know my gimmick "Does that sound reasonable to you?" <cite>Kazi1212 posted [p:906637432] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>Antifar posted...</cite> <quote>Is treason disloyalty to one's president, or one's country?</quote> Ones country. The country elected Trump as president, by manipulating the most important decision maker in the US, youre effectively committing treasonous behavior against the US, the president isnt a normal private citizen.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
0AbsoluteZero0 08/10/18 2:28:45 PM #29:	@s0nicfan posted... 0AbsoluteZero0 posted... s0nicfan posted... On the one side, I think we need to show strong support for NATO. On the other side, we shouldn't literally be having presidential advisors and cabinet members actively manipulating and deceiving him to push their own desired policy. When you elect a thin-skinned manchild with the geopolitical understanding of your average first grader, sometimes these things are necessary I have a simple rule I use to determine whether something is "necessary" or not. I ask myself "Would I be okay with this happening to any other president or used by the other party?" Once we say something is acceptable behavior, we have to assume it will get used by other people for things we don't support. It's why I generally hate executive action: the more one president uses it, the more any OTHER president, including ones whos agenda I don't support, can use it. We should be more reticent to cede ground when it comes to what we allow to happen in government. It can and will be used against us in the future. I understand where youre coming from, and I agree that I dont like the idea and precedent of advisors tricking the President into signing things he doesnt fully understand. But in light of the current situation I think it can be justified as an attempt to mitigate the potential long-term damage threatening Americas key alliances due to Trump. Its a shitty situation no matter how we go about it, unfortunately. --- -The Admirable <cite>0AbsoluteZero0 posted [p:906637456] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>@s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote><cite>0AbsoluteZero0 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>On the one side, I think we need to show strong support for NATO. On the other side, we shouldn't literally be having presidential advisors and cabinet members actively manipulating and deceiving him to push their own desired policy.</quote> When you elect a thin-skinned manchild with the geopolitical understanding of your average first grader, sometimes these things are necessary</quote> I have a simple rule I use to determine whether something is "necessary" or not. I ask myself "Would I be okay with this happening to any other president or used by the other party?" Once we say something is acceptable behavior, we have to assume it will get used by other people for things we don't support. It's why I generally hate executive action: the more one president uses it, the more any OTHER president, including ones whos agenda I don't support, can use it. We should be more reticent to cede ground when it comes to what we allow to happen in government. It can and will be used against us in the future.</quote> I understand where youre coming from, and I agree that I dont like the idea and precedent of advisors tricking the President into signing things he doesnt fully understand. But in light of the current situation I think it can be justified as an attempt to mitigate the potential long-term damage threatening Americas key alliances due to Trump. Its a shitty situation no matter how we go about it, unfortunately.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 08/10/18 2:28:51 PM #30:	Antifar posted... s0nicfan posted... I ask myself "Would I be okay with this happening to any other president or used by the other party?" Once we say something is acceptable behavior, we have to assume it will get used by other people for things we don't support. Not all presidents are created equally. Legal precedent isn't tied to personality. I don't like allowing bad behavior just because it's used against someone I don't like, because eventually someone will use said behavior against someone I DO, and we'll be powerless to stop it. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:906637461] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>Antifar posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>I ask myself "Would I be okay with this happening to any other president or used by the other party?" Once we say something is acceptable behavior, we have to assume it will get used by other people for things we don't support. </quote> Not all presidents are created equally.</quote> Legal precedent isn't tied to personality. I don't like allowing bad behavior just because it's used against someone I don't like, because eventually someone will use said behavior against someone I DO, and we'll be powerless to stop it.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Antifar 08/10/18 2:29:37 PM #31:	Kazi1212 posted... The country elected Trump as president, It mostly didn't, and even if they had that is not free reign for a president to do as he chooses. --- kin to all that throbs <cite>Antifar posted [p:906637502] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>Kazi1212 posted...</cite> <quote> The country elected Trump as president,</quote> It mostly didn't, and even if they had that is not free reign for a president to do as he chooses.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Freddie_Mercury 08/10/18 2:30:18 PM #32:	lmao trolled --- what's the dillio <cite>Freddie_Mercury posted [p:906637553] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote>lmao trolled</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Kazi1212 08/10/18 2:32:23 PM #33:	Antifar posted... Kazi1212 posted... The country elected Trump as president, It mostly didn't The people mostly didnt, the country did. Whoever is elected is elected based on the governing election rules of the country, not based solely on who gets more votes, America never pretended to be a democracy. --- I don't know my gimmick "Does that sound reasonable to you?" <cite>Kazi1212 posted [p:906637696] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>Antifar posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Kazi1212 posted...</cite> <quote> The country elected Trump as president,</quote> It mostly didn't</quote> The people mostly didnt, the country did. Whoever is elected is elected based on the governing election rules of the country, not based solely on who gets more votes, America never pretended to be a democracy.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Balrog0 08/10/18 2:32:48 PM #34:	Antifar posted... Trump being steered towards something by John Fucking Bolton is a different matter than, idk, if Hillary had steered Obama towards something (though I think she wouldn't have gotten as far in doing so) purely by the nature of who those people are and what they're trying to do. I mean I was actually going to say this happens all the time and I was going to reference how much more bellicose the state department under Hilary was than what Obama would have preferred though tbf it is a different kind of struggle than literally deceiving the president into signing something. I don't think I need to implement a new standard here, people generally don't do that because the president himself is more aware of and interested in the policies he is pursuing --- But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. <cite>Balrog0 posted [p:906637727] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>Antifar posted...</cite> <quote>Trump being steered towards something by John Fucking Bolton is a different matter than, idk, if Hillary had steered Obama towards something (though I think she wouldn't have gotten as far in doing so) purely by the nature of who those people are and what they're trying to do.</quote> I mean I was actually going to say this happens all the time and I was going to reference how much more bellicose the state department under Hilary was than what Obama would have preferred though tbf it is a different kind of struggle than literally deceiving the president into signing something. I don't think I need to implement a new standard here, people generally don't do that because the president himself is more aware of and interested in the policies he is pursuing</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 08/10/18 2:33:30 PM #35:	0AbsoluteZero0 posted... I understand where youre coming from, and I agree that I dont like the idea and precedent of advisors tricking the President into signing things he doesnt fully understand. But in light of the current situation I think it can be justified as an attempt to mitigate the potential long-term damage threatening Americas key alliances due to Trump. Its a shitty situation no matter how we go about it, unfortunately. Unlike many countries, the rest of the world fully understands that the US president is a temporary position. I don't think it's worth allowing something that would have permanent ramifications on how our government is run to avoid pissing off people who know that in a few years there will be someone else. We have term limits AND regular elections, and we stick to both. Our allies (and enemies) can trust in that, if nothing else. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:906637768] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>0AbsoluteZero0 posted...</cite> <quote>I understand where youre coming from, and I agree that I dont like the idea and precedent of advisors tricking the President into signing things he doesnt fully understand. But in light of the current situation I think it can be justified as an attempt to mitigate the potential long-term damage threatening Americas key alliances due to Trump. Its a shitty situation no matter how we go about it, unfortunately.</quote> Unlike many countries, the rest of the world fully understands that the US president is a temporary position. I don't think it's worth allowing something that would have permanent ramifications on how our government is run to avoid pissing off people who know that in a few years there will be someone else. We have term limits AND regular elections, and we stick to both. Our allies (and enemies) can trust in that, if nothing else.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
King_Hellebuyck 08/10/18 2:35:36 PM #36:	Kazi1212 posted... Antifar posted... Is treason disloyalty to one's president, or one's country? Ones country. The country elected Trump as president, by manipulating the most important decision maker in the US, youre effectively committing treasonous behavior against the US, the president isnt a normal private citizen. Bronze medal --- All Hail King Connor! Official Connor Hellebuyck fanboy <cite>King_Hellebuyck posted [p:906637894] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>Kazi1212 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Antifar posted...</cite> <quote>Is treason disloyalty to one's president, or one's country?</quote> Ones country. The country elected Trump as president, by manipulating the most important decision maker in the US, youre effectively committing treasonous behavior against the US, the president isnt a normal private citizen.</quote> Bronze medal</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Balrog0 08/10/18 2:35:38 PM #37:	s0nicfan posted... Legal precedent isn't tied to personality. I don't like allowing bad behavior just because it's used against someone I don't like, because eventually someone will use said behavior against someone I DO, and we'll be powerless to stop it. the president is fully capable of firing these people if he ever cares enough about them misleading him to do so --- But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. <cite>Balrog0 posted [p:906637899] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>Legal precedent isn't tied to personality. I don't like allowing bad behavior just because it's used against someone I don't like, because eventually someone will use said behavior against someone I DO, and we'll be powerless to stop it.</quote> the president is fully capable of firing these people if he ever cares enough about them misleading him to do so</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Cookie Bag 08/10/18 2:35:52 PM #38:	That face when the president is so fucking stupid he gets tricked into signing important shit lol --- https://imgtc.com/i/AuJKAON.gif https://imgtc.com/i/ScpGt0K.gif https://imgtc.com/i/L7oyUct.jpg https://imgtc.com/i/wwsMJDT.gif <cite>Cookie Bag posted [p:906637912] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote>That face when the president is so fucking stupid he gets tricked into signing important shit lol</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
King_Hellebuyck 08/10/18 2:36:28 PM #39:	s0nicfan posted... Antifar posted... s0nicfan posted... I ask myself "Would I be okay with this happening to any other president or used by the other party?" Once we say something is acceptable behavior, we have to assume it will get used by other people for things we don't support. Not all presidents are created equally. Legal precedent isn't tied to personality. I don't like allowing bad behavior just because it's used against someone I don't like, because eventually someone will use said behavior against someone I DO, and we'll be powerless to stop it. The president not reading anything is not the same as legal precedent --- All Hail King Connor! Official Connor Hellebuyck fanboy <cite>King_Hellebuyck posted [p:906637950] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Antifar posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>I ask myself "Would I be okay with this happening to any other president or used by the other party?" Once we say something is acceptable behavior, we have to assume it will get used by other people for things we don't support. </quote> Not all presidents are created equally.</quote> Legal precedent isn't tied to personality. I don't like allowing bad behavior just because it's used against someone I don't like, because eventually someone will use said behavior against someone I DO, and we'll be powerless to stop it.</quote> The president not reading anything is not the same as legal precedent</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
booboy 08/10/18 2:37:50 PM #40:	Balrog0 posted... s0nicfan posted... Legal precedent isn't tied to personality. I don't like allowing bad behavior just because it's used against someone I don't like, because eventually someone will use said behavior against someone I DO, and we'll be powerless to stop it. the president is fully capable of firing these people if he ever cares enough about them misleading him to do so I think he could get away with firing Bolton, but firing Mad Dog would be political suicide. --- There is no problem that can't be solved by applying more yuri to it. In Torque We Trust <cite>booboy posted [p:906638036] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>Balrog0 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>Legal precedent isn't tied to personality. I don't like allowing bad behavior just because it's used against someone I don't like, because eventually someone will use said behavior against someone I DO, and we'll be powerless to stop it.</quote> the president is fully capable of firing these people if he ever cares enough about them misleading him to do so</quote> I think he could get away with firing Bolton, but firing Mad Dog would be political suicide.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 08/10/18 2:38:14 PM #41:	King_Hellebuyck posted... s0nicfan posted... Antifar posted... s0nicfan posted... I ask myself "Would I be okay with this happening to any other president or used by the other party?" Once we say something is acceptable behavior, we have to assume it will get used by other people for things we don't support. Not all presidents are created equally. Legal precedent isn't tied to personality. I don't like allowing bad behavior just because it's used against someone I don't like, because eventually someone will use said behavior against someone I DO, and we'll be powerless to stop it. The president not reading anything is not the same as legal precedent 2 cabinet members openly admitting to actively deceiving the president is not the same as the president not reading anything. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:906638059] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>King_Hellebuyck posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Antifar posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>I ask myself "Would I be okay with this happening to any other president or used by the other party?" Once we say something is acceptable behavior, we have to assume it will get used by other people for things we don't support. </quote> Not all presidents are created equally.</quote> Legal precedent isn't tied to personality. I don't like allowing bad behavior just because it's used against someone I don't like, because eventually someone will use said behavior against someone I DO, and we'll be powerless to stop it.</quote> The president not reading anything is not the same as legal precedent</quote> 2 cabinet members openly admitting to actively deceiving the president is not the same as the president not reading anything.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Darkman124 08/10/18 2:40:09 PM #42:	s0nicfan posted... 2 cabinet members openly admitting to actively deceiving the president is not the same as the president not reading anything. he was deceived because he didnt read it that is on him --- And when the hourglass has run out, eternity asks you about only one thing: whether you have lived in despair or not. <cite>Darkman124 posted [p:906638183] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>2 cabinet members openly admitting to actively deceiving the president is not the same as the president not reading anything. </quote> he was deceived because he didnt read it that is on him</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
CableZL 08/10/18 2:42:29 PM #43:	s0nicfan posted... 2 cabinet members openly admitting to actively deceiving the president is not the same as the president not reading anything. The deception was getting him to not read the parts he would be upset about, so in this case it is one and the same. --- https://imgur.com/ByKGlJb https://imgur.com/nZdaA8D https://imgur.com/VBLBILg <cite>CableZL posted [p:906638312] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>2 cabinet members openly admitting to actively deceiving the president is not the same as the president not reading anything. </quote> The deception was getting him to not read the parts he would be upset about, so in this case it is one and the same.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 08/10/18 2:44:31 PM #44:	CableZL posted... s0nicfan posted... 2 cabinet members openly admitting to actively deceiving the president is not the same as the president not reading anything. The deception was getting him to not read the part he would be upset about, so in this case it is one and the same. Sort of. If they gave him the document and he didn't read it, and they chose to not fill in extra details, that would be a lie of omission, which is less bad. Instead, they didn't give him the document at all, but a summary of their wording where they actively excluded information they thought he wouldn't like, which is a lie of commission. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:906638445] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>CableZL posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>2 cabinet members openly admitting to actively deceiving the president is not the same as the president not reading anything. </quote> The deception was getting him to not read the part he would be upset about, so in this case it is one and the same.</quote> Sort of. If they gave him the document and he didn't read it, and they chose to not fill in extra details, that would be a lie of omission, which is less bad. Instead, they didn't give him the document at all, but a summary of their wording where they actively excluded information they thought he wouldn't like, which is a lie of commission.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Balrog0 08/10/18 2:45:21 PM #45:	how could he sign a document he didnt have? --- But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. <cite>Balrog0 posted [p:906638489] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote>how could he sign a document he didnt have?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Kazi1212 08/10/18 2:46:08 PM #46:	Darkman124 posted... s0nicfan posted... 2 cabinet members openly admitting to actively deceiving the president is not the same as the president not reading anything. he was deceived because he didnt read it that is on him So you expect every president to read every single page of every single document he signs? Surely every president in history hasnt had time for that and rather pragmatically delegated his staff to summarize the important points of documents hes thinking about signing? I dunno, maybe what you expect is more reasonable. --- I don't know my gimmick "Does that sound reasonable to you?" <cite>Kazi1212 posted [p:906638550] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>Darkman124 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>2 cabinet members openly admitting to actively deceiving the president is not the same as the president not reading anything. </quote> he was deceived because he didnt read it that is on him</quote> So you expect every president to read every single page of every single document he signs? Surely every president in history hasnt had time for that and rather pragmatically delegated his staff to summarize the important points of documents hes thinking about signing? I dunno, maybe what you expect is more reasonable.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 08/10/18 2:46:15 PM #47:	Balrog0 posted... how could he sign a document he didnt have? That's what the article says: As The Times reports, Mr. Trump was presented with only the broad outlines of what the meeting would deliver not details of the document of 79 paragraphs, running 23 pages. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:906638556] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>Balrog0 posted...</cite> <quote>how could he sign a document he didnt have?</quote> That's what the article says: <quote> As The Times reports, Mr. Trump was presented with only the broad outlines of what the meeting would deliver not details of the document of 79 paragraphs, running 23 pages.</quote></quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
King_Hellebuyck 08/10/18 2:46:28 PM #48:	s0nicfan posted... King_Hellebuyck posted... s0nicfan posted... Antifar posted... s0nicfan posted... I ask myself "Would I be okay with this happening to any other president or used by the other party?" Once we say something is acceptable behavior, we have to assume it will get used by other people for things we don't support. Not all presidents are created equally. Legal precedent isn't tied to personality. I don't like allowing bad behavior just because it's used against someone I don't like, because eventually someone will use said behavior against someone I DO, and we'll be powerless to stop it. The president not reading anything is not the same as legal precedent 2 cabinet members openly admitting to actively deceiving the president is not the same as the president not reading anything. Ok then explain how there is now a legal precedent --- All Hail King Connor! Official Connor Hellebuyck fanboy <cite>King_Hellebuyck posted [p:906638574] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote><cite>King_Hellebuyck posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Antifar posted...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>I ask myself "Would I be okay with this happening to any other president or used by the other party?" Once we say something is acceptable behavior, we have to assume it will get used by other people for things we don't support. </quote> Not all presidents are created equally.</quote> Legal precedent isn't tied to personality. I don't like allowing bad behavior just because it's used against someone I don't like, because eventually someone will use said behavior against someone I DO, and we'll be powerless to stop it.</quote> The president not reading anything is not the same as legal precedent</quote> 2 cabinet members openly admitting to actively deceiving the president is not the same as the president not reading anything.</quote> Ok then explain how there is now a legal precedent</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Schwarber 08/10/18 2:46:56 PM #49:	Trump's too busy to read shit, he has to golf and scarf down mcdoubles. I am enjoying the gymnastics by some of the shills though. --- https://imgur.com/iQXgYOx https://imgur.com/l3frhSF https://imgur.com/HM1Hjby https://imgur.com/bvsFH0H - drawn by Yaridovich <cite>Schwarber posted [p:906638595] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote>Trump's too busy to read shit, he has to golf and scarf down mcdoubles. I am enjoying the gymnastics by some of the shills though.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Balrog0 08/10/18 2:47:34 PM #50:	s0nicfan posted... Balrog0 posted... how could he sign a document he didnt have? That's what the article says: As The Times reports, Mr. Trump was presented with only the broad outlines of what the meeting would deliver not details of the document of 79 paragraphs, running 23 pages. I think you're dissembling to make this look worse than it is. The rumor is that Trump is presented with information in bite-sized chunks, typically in the form of one-pagers, because he doesn't read. That isn't the same as him not having the document, it just means he is incredibly uninterested and lazy. --- But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. <cite>Balrog0 posted [p:906638638] in Trump's st... [t:76890303]...</cite> <quote><cite>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Balrog0 posted...</cite> <quote>how could he sign a document he didnt have?</quote> That's what the article says: <quote> As The Times reports, Mr. Trump was presented with only the broad outlines of what the meeting would deliver not details of the document of 79 paragraphs, running 23 pages.</quote></quote> I think you're dissembling to make this look worse than it is. The rumor is that Trump is presented with information in bite-sized chunks, typically in the form of one-pagers, because he doesn't read. That isn't the same as him not having the document, it just means he is incredibly uninterested and lazy.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Current Events > Trump's staff tricked him into signing pro-NATO agreement (+) Yeah! (+)

Current Events > Trump's staff tricked him into signing pro-NATO agreement