Current Events > Why does Africa suck so bad?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

boxington posted...

do you believe that toxic western involvement (not saying western involvement is toxic, but stuff like colonialism is) ended after colonialism?

I believe Western contributions are a net good that they are failing to utilize. Zimbabwe (the perennial example) is experiencing its problems because of the Zimbabwe. Our (Western) hands were washed of it a while ago.

Zimbabwe is a quintessential example of a brutal authoritarian leader rising from the chaos of the revolution and using the situation to further his own power and wealth. We Americans take it for granted that our revolution was led by people who actually had the country's best interest in mind. George Washington could have tried to make himself a new king or something.
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Not that I doubt that has happened, but got any specific examples or are these generic "fuck the west!" self hating platitudes?
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Sativa_Rose posted...

We Americans take it for granted that our revolution . . .

And that makes their situation our fault now? I don't see your point here.
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Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

Sativa_Rose posted...

We Americans take it for granted that our revolution . . .

And that makes their situation our fault now? I don't see your point here.

I never said that. My point is to explain the answer to the TC's original question, basically.
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There's nothing that a hundred men or more could ever do
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The smartest, most successful people in Africa tend to Migrate to 1st world countries.

Europeans/Asians were just as had in the past, but they didn't have mass amounts of their most intelligent and capable fleeing to better places in their formulative years. Africa is basically stuck in this cycle where the people with the means to immigrate go to better continents but those people who flee are in the biggest position to improve it.

It is what it is.

What is their average IQ?
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Slayerblade11 posted...

The smartest, most successful people in Africa tend to Migrate to 1st world countries.

Europeans/Asians were just as had in the past, but they didn't have mass amounts of their most intelligent and capable fleeing to better places in their formulative years. Africa is basically stuck in this cycle where the people with the means to immigrate go to better continents but those people who flee are in the biggest position to improve it.

It is what it is.

I've read literature indicating that diaspora communities can actually help their home countries develop because they often send back money (remittances), and also that they will often return with new skills and education that they can use to help their home countries.
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On_The_Edge posted...

What is their average IQ?

Tragically low.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289609001275
https://iq-research.info/en/average-iq-by-country

And yes, this is probably the real reason the region is the way it is.
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I mean, how far back do you want to go?

Yeah, you can look at colonialism and what not, but you can probably go way back to the lack of domesticated beasts of burden. Not a lot of horses and oxen in ancient Subsaharan Africa, are there? Probably put a big damper on their ability to technologically advance in the same way the Europeans did.
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Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

On_The_Edge posted...

What is their average IQ?

Tragically low.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289609001275https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289609001275
https://iq-research.info/en/average-iq-by-country

And yes, this is probably the real reason the region is the way it is.

Give it a couple generations and we'll pump those numbers up. I believe that education has a big impact on IQ.
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Esrac posted...

you can probably go way back to the lack of domesticated beasts of burden. Not a lot of horses and oxen in ancient Subsaharan Africa, are there? Probably put a big damper on their ability to technologically advance in the same way the Europeans did.

And yes I have heard similar things.
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Sativa_Rose posted...

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

boxington posted...

do you believe that toxic western involvement (not saying western involvement is toxic, but stuff like colonialism is) ended after colonialism?

I believe Western contributions are a net good that they are failing to utilize. Zimbabwe (the perennial example) is experiencing its problems because of the Zimbabwe. Our (Western) hands were washed of it a while ago.

Zimbabwe is a quintessential example of a brutal authoritarian leader rising from the chaos of the revolution and using the situation to further his own power and wealth. We Americans take it for granted that our revolution was led by people who actually had the country's best interest in mind. George Washington could have tried to make himself a new king or something.

To be fair, Washington would probably have been a pretty good king. At least as far as kings go.

But I suppose a man who is most qualified to be king would be too good a man to want the crown.
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Because most of it is untamable and inhospitable. People from other nations have tried for decades and they cant do anything. Its like Heart of Darkness: the jungle is alive any be tamed by humans.
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Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

On_The_Edge posted...

What is their average IQ?

Tragically low.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289609001275https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289609001275

https://iq-research.info/en/average-iq-by-country

It's interesting how average IQ seems to be tied to quality of life. It seems like IQ is not a good measure of raw natural intelligence and that economical and sociological factors are a huge influence on the education of a nation.
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are you clowns serious?
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Disease, heat, lack of beasts of burden, colonialism, and being new countries. Plus kleptocracy and civil wars.

And of course reasonable liberal Anarchy goes straight to Bell Curve explanations. Surely he is the most liberal!
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Conflict posted...

ledbowman posted...

Isn't Howl that guy who's racist in like every topic?

He also claims that abortion is "mass murder" and identical to Spartan culture.

And to think he gave me shit for using the word "we" when I was defending the city I live in. What a joke.
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legendary_zell posted...

Disease, heat, lack of beasts of burden, colonialism, and being new countries. Plus kleptocracy and civil wars.

And of course reasonable liberal Anarchy goes straight to Bell Curve explanations. Surely he is the most liberal!

"IQ plays no role in the development of a society! Even though it correlates to success, lack of criminality, and so much more on a personal level."

Listen, if you want to take the Guns, Germs, Steel approach, have at it, that certainly plays are role, but pretending that the average IQ being 20 points lower isn't going to help shape their countries is just fucking naive.
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CloneTheHero posted...

i suggest you guys read Guns, Germs, and Steel by jared diamond.

IQ has nothing to do with why some civilizations flourished while others stayed complacent. europeans are not genetically superior and the IQ argument is nothing more than white superiority in cloaked form

THANK YOU.
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CloneTheHero posted...

i suggest you guys read Guns, Germs, and Steel by jared diamond.

CGP Grey has 2 really great videos on it, "Americapox: The Missing Plague" and "Zebras vs Horses: Animal Domestication"
For anyone that want's an easily digestible cliff notes/Interpretation.

IQ has nothing to do with why some civilizations flourished while others stayed complacent. europeans are not genetically superior and the IQ argument is nothing more than white superiority in cloaked form

No one said anyone was genetically superior. Chill out. The inverse of your claim; do you not think that if the U.S. suddenly had an average IQ of 200 we wouldn't see extreme, positive changes?
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CloneTheHero posted...

i suggest you guys read Guns, Germs, and Steel by jared diamond.

IQ has nothing to do with why some civilizations flourished while others stayed complacent. europeans are not genetically superior and the IQ argument is nothing more than white superiority in cloaked form

You can't tell some people this
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CloneTheHero posted...

mistalightbulb posted...

CloneTheHero posted...

Metro2 posted...

Because we slavers invaded, plundered, and left the continent to rot in poverty.

africa was already sparsely populated, poor, and primitive well before colonialism and slavery. africans had never established permanent cities before the muslims and europeans arrived.

what the fuck. africa had some of the most advanced civilizations in the world at one point.

the ancient egyptians were more closely related to middle eastern people. thus not ethnic africans.
https://bigthink.com/philip-perry/were-the-ancient-egyptians-black-or-white-scientists-now-know

So Egypt isn't part of Africa? We're talking about the country as a whole, nobody is picking out ethnic groups.
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ledbowman posted...

Isn't Howl that guy who's racist in like every topic?

I've never once posted anything even remotely racist.
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Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

legendary_zell posted...

Disease, heat, lack of beasts of burden, colonialism, and being new countries. Plus kleptocracy and civil wars.

And of course reasonable liberal Anarchy goes straight to Bell Curve explanations. Surely he is the most liberal!

"IQ plays no role in the development of a society! Even though it correlates to success, lack of criminality, and so much more on a personal level."

Listen, if you want to take the Guns, Germs, Steel approach, have at it, that certainly plays are role, but pretending that the average IQ being 20 points lower isn't going to help shape their countries is just fucking naive.

Does low IQ make countries shitty? Or do shitty countries make people stupid?

Some societies in the Middle East used to be scientific and technological hubs of the world. Did some rapid evolution kick in and make those ethnicities stupider? Or did things happen that destroyed these societies, making it harder for average people to obtain good education?
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wakanda forever though

CloneTheHero posted...

and the IQ argument is nothing more than white superiority in cloaked form

What on earth are you blabbering about? How can that be white superiority when white people don't have the highest IQs?

silentwing26x posted...

CloneTheHero posted...

and the IQ argument is nothing more than white superiority in cloaked form

What on earth are you blabbering about? How can that be white superiority when white people don't have the highest IQs?

It's Jewish Supremacy, which is just as bad these days.
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silentwing26x posted...

CloneTheHero posted...

and the IQ argument is nothing more than white superiority in cloaked form

What on earth are you blabbering about? How can that be white superiority when white people don't have the highest IQs?

Because the only people who ever make the argument are white idiots trying to prove how naturally inferior black people are.
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hockeybub89 posted...

Does low IQ make countries shitty? Or do shitty countries make people stupid?

Both probably.
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I think one of the IQ tests flaws is that it doesn't really gauge non-Western populations.
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hockeybub89 posted...

Because the only people who ever make the argument are white idiots trying to prove how naturally inferior black people are.

Both sources I linked to put whites under East Asians and Jews on IQ. I don't think myself inferior because I'm white. Nor do I think blacks inferior, everyone should be judged as individuals and nobody gets credit for being the same color as someone.
Stop fucking projecting.

Also, are you rejecting that statistics? Or because you think I'm an asshole, you're just disregarding them for the sake of the conversation?
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Blue_Dream87 posted...

I think one of the IQ tests flaws is that it doesn't really gauge non-Western populations.

That's fine . . . but you're wrong.
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A lot of Africa is a normal modern place to live. It's not all starving marvin and child soldiers. It's a big continent. Much bigger than maps show.
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Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

Because the only people who ever make the argument are white idiots trying to prove how naturally inferior black people are.

Both sources I linked to put whites under East Asians and Jews on IQ. I don't think myself inferior because I'm white. Nor do I think blacks inferior, everyone should be judged as individuals and nobody gets credit for being the same color as someone.
Stop fucking projecting.

Also, are you rejecting that statistics? Or because you think I'm an asshole, you're just disregarding them for the sake of the conversation?

the problem is that you're literally expecting hockeybub to think critically, present an actual position rather than a strawman, and be honest

Blue_Dream87 posted...

I think one of the IQ tests flaws is that it doesn't really gauge non-Western populations.

IQ tests that only test pattern recognition are about as non culturally biased as you can get.

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

Does low IQ make countries shitty? Or do shitty countries make people stupid?

Both probably.

That's a cop out.

Is the average American smarter than the average Somalian because of natural intelligence or because one country isn't a wartorn failed state?

The data would seem to suggest a direct relation between quality of life and education. And better education will make a society more intelligent. Again, some of those nations used to be home to great societies. Did everyone get dumber out of the blue or did things happen that ruined those societies?

If some top tier European nation suddenly became extremely poor and unstable and an African nation became literal Wakanda, do you think the status quo would remain?
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Slayerblade11 posted...

Blue_Dream87 posted...

I think one of the IQ tests flaws is that it doesn't really gauge non-Western populations.

IQ tests that only test pattern recognition are about as non culturally biased as you can get.

Yeah I don't think Blue_Dream87 actually knows what an IQ test even is.

That's like saying that mathematics doesn't really gauge non-Western populations. Like wtf does that even mean?

Slayerblade11 posted...

Blue_Dream87 posted...

I think one of the IQ tests flaws is that it doesn't really gauge non-Western populations.

IQ tests that only test pattern recognition are about as non culturally biased as you can get.

He's probably confusing them with the rhetoric against SATs where they use words that "whites are more likely to be exposed to" like water polo or some shit.
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before making any judgement on the IQ figures around the world it's pertinent to ask how exactly those figures were ascertained in the first place

https://iq-research.info/en/average-iq-by-country

"These numbers came from a work carried out from 2002 to 2006 by Richard Lynn, a British Professor of Psychology, and Tatu Vanhanen, a Finnish Professor of Political Science, who conducted IQ studies in more than 80 countries."

how many people were tested? how can we be sure that enough people were tested to accurately represent the average IQ of each population as a whole?

now assuming the statistics are true, why is it the case? does it come down to lack of education or simply genetics?

Slayerblade11 posted...

The smartest, most successful people in Africa tend to Migrate to 1st world countries.

Europeans/Asians were just as had in the past, but they didn't have mass amounts of their most intelligent and capable fleeing to better places in their formulative years. Africa is basically stuck in this cycle where the people with the means to immigrate go to better continents but those people who flee are in the biggest position to improve it.

It is what it is.

this also has a hell of a lot to do with the statistics, i'm sure

can the mods do their fucking job and ban these racist white supremacists?
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Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

Because the only people who ever make the argument are white idiots trying to prove how naturally inferior black people are.

Both sources I linked to put whites under East Asians and Jews on IQ. I don't think myself inferior because I'm white. Nor do I think blacks inferior, everyone should be judged as individuals and nobody gets credit for being the same color as someone.
Stop fucking projecting.

Also, are you rejecting that statistics? Or because you think I'm an asshole, you're just disregarding them for the sake of the conversation?

I'm completely accepting the statistics and I know you didn't make them up. I'm just saying that most of the people who push this racial IQ angle do so to push black inferiority, not Asian superiority. You know how people say economic inequality is a bigger issue than racial inequality? I think the statistics absolutely support that with how IQ seems to line up with quality of life.

This is why authoritarian regimes like to limit education. It's a lot harder to subjugate the masses if you let them obtain knowledge.
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silentwing26x posted...

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

Because the only people who ever make the argument are white idiots trying to prove how naturally inferior black people are.

Both sources I linked to put whites under East Asians and Jews on IQ. I don't think myself inferior because I'm white. Nor do I think blacks inferior, everyone should be judged as individuals and nobody gets credit for being the same color as someone.
Stop fucking projecting.

Also, are you rejecting that statistics? Or because you think I'm an asshole, you're just disregarding them for the sake of the conversation?

the problem is that you're literally expecting hockeybub to think critically, present an actual position rather than a strawman, and be honest

Meanwhile, in reality, I have posted things that people who can read tell a different story.
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hockeybub89 posted...

That's a cop out.

It's an honest response to the false dichotomy that you've presented.

Is the average American smarter than the average Somalian because of natural intelligence or because one country isn't a wartorn failed state?

Again, both.

If some top tier European nation suddenly became extremely poor and unstable and an African nation became literal Wakanda, do you think the status quo would remain?

There is absolutely no point is this question and honestly, it's fucking sad that people like you even utter the word Wakanda in conversations about Africa, a fictional country conceived of by white men, that only succeeded because of magic and mysticism, and a physics breaking "ex machina" material. Jesus fucking Christ . . .
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@Howl

badly*

Funny how you can look down on people, and not understand this.
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hmmmm idk why a place that has been plundered and enslaved by european colonizers is struggling
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Le__seul_dieu__ posted...

can the mods do their fucking job and ban these racist white supremacists?

Baby mad?

You can't call anyone racist you hypocrite.
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Dusk_ posted...

Le__seul_dieu__ posted...

can the mods do their fucking job and ban these racist white supremacists?

Baby mad?

You can't call anyone racist you hypocrite.

Wow. Someone's triggered
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I'm just putting more weight in non-genetic factors. Some people look at those stats and see which ethnicities are dominant in those countries. I see higher quality nations producing smarter people. I guess you can say that stupid people gathered in certain places and fail at creating successful societies, but that doesn't sound very sensible and certainly pushes the idea of racial superiority. If you took every Japanese baby and raised it in Sudan, they would turn out far less intelligent and vice versa.
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