Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 181: We Are Seeking (An) Asylum

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JeffreyRaze posted...

Crime in Germany is way up.

This is the statement by Trump. It is a direct quote. This statement is blatantly false. Can you please condemn it.

Maybe Trump's talking about the elevation that crimes are being committed at in Germany. Can you prove that crimes in Germany aren't taking place higher above sea level than they used to? If you can't, then how can say Trump is incorrect?
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Also, the crime rate among immigrants can drop as a result of the crime rate among existing immigrants dropping, even if the crime rate among new immigrants is higher. If the crime rate among immigrants started off higher than for the native population, one would expect the immigrant crime rate to drop as people stay in their new country longer and the causes of the initial high crime rate (poverty, unfamiliarity with culture, lack of knowledge of laws, etc) dissipate.

None of this rebuts Trump's argument, which appears to me to be that 1) migrants generally commit crimes at a higher rate than the native population, and 2) America should stop migrants from entering.
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red sox 777 posted...

Also, the crime rate among immigrants can drop as a result of the crime rate among existing immigrants dropping, even if the crime rate among new immigrants is higher.

Even if this sack of nonsense were true, and it's not, that would still mean "crime is way up" is still categorically false.

Just stop.
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red sox 777 posted...

2) America should stop migrants from entering.

why would this statement need a "rebuttal"? the burden of proof is on trump to say WHY america should stop doing this. "migrants commit crimes at a higher rate than the native population" is not good enough.
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As much as I don't want to wade into this argument given the current situation because this isn't even on the radar of things I care about right at this moment:

red sox 777 posted...

1) migrants generally commit crimes at a higher rate than the native population

wrt Illegal Immigration in America this is false. I admittedly don't know what the figure is if you included legal immigration as well.
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JeffreyRaze posted...

Crime in Germany is way up.

This is the statement by Trump. It is a direct quote. This statement is blatantly false. Can you please condemn it.

You are ignoring the context and being intentionally dumb about understanding his words. 1) What Trump literally says is not what he means. 2) All language should be understood in its context. 3) After 3 years of making hyperbolic statements daily, haven't you learned that 99% of the time, Trump's statements should not be taken literally?
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At this point even if I assume everything you're saying is true and that is actually what Trump is arguing, it's still not good. Even with the most positive possible interpretation of Trump's statement, he's still said something vague enough to look like a complete lie if taken at face value over what he's declared to be an official channel of the president of the US, which would be gross incompetence and still condemnable, though less so. Can you at least condemn him for that?
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red sox 777 posted...

JeffreyRaze posted...

Crime in Germany is way up.

This is the statement by Trump. It is a direct quote. This statement is blatantly false. Can you please condemn it.

You are ignoring the context and being intentionally dumb about understanding his words. 1) What Trump literally says is not what he means. 2) All language should be understood in its context. 3) After 3 years of making hyperbolic statements daily, haven't you learned that 99% of the time, Trump's statements should not be taken literally?

Why should it be the public's fault for taking anything he says literally, and why should it be on them to just know these things, instead of on the man making the claims in the first place?
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

red sox 777 posted...

2) America should stop migrants from entering.

why would this statement need a "rebuttal"? the burden of proof is on trump to say WHY america should stop doing this. "migrants commit crimes at a higher rate than the native population" is not good enough.

You should understand the purpose of Trump's statement is to win support for himself and the GOP in the US. The burden of proof, then, is what the voters decide it is. And Trump got elected in the first place because Democrats adopted nonsensical strategies like not offering a rebuttal at all.
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HashtagSEP posted...

red sox 777 posted...

JeffreyRaze posted...

Crime in Germany is way up.

This is the statement by Trump. It is a direct quote. This statement is blatantly false. Can you please condemn it.

You are ignoring the context and being intentionally dumb about understanding his words. 1) What Trump literally says is not what he means. 2) All language should be understood in its context. 3) After 3 years of making hyperbolic statements daily, haven't you learned that 99% of the time, Trump's statements should not be taken literally?

Why should it be the public's fault for taking anything he says literally, and why should it be on them to just know these things, instead of on the man making the claims in the first place?

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me every single day for 3 years.......
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That's not answering why it's fair to shame the public yet never shame the man trying to fool people
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Peace___Frog posted...

If someone is arguing that trump was maybe kind of correct when he said a vague statement with zero evidence of anything, can we please not quote that someone? Thanks.

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red sox 777 posted...

You should understand the purpose of Trump's statement is to win support for himself and the GOP in the US.

he's not a republican candidate trying to become president of the US anymore, though. he's the president of the US. perhaps now he should start saying stuff that actually makes sense instead of stuff to win support for himself.
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xp1337 posted...

As much as I don't want to wade into this argument given the current situation because this isn't even on the radar of things I care about right at this moment:

red sox 777 posted...

1) migrants generally commit crimes at a higher rate than the native population

wrt Illegal Immigration in America this is false. I admittedly don't know what the figure is if you included legal immigration as well.

I strongly suspect that legal immigrants commit crimes at much lower rates than natural born Americans. But would not be at all surprised if immigrants committed crimes at higher rates in Germany - because Germans commit "crimes" at lower rates than Americans, and doesn't have an absurd criminal "justice" system that leads the world in incarceration.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

red sox 777 posted...

You should understand the purpose of Trump's statement is to win support for himself and the GOP in the US.

he's not a republican candidate trying to become president of the US anymore, though. he's the president of the US. perhaps now he should start saying stuff that actually makes sense instead of stuff to win support for himself.

The implication that he has no reason to keep exaggerating once hes re-elected is funny
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Jakyl25 posted...

The implication that he has no reason to keep exaggerating once hes re-elected is funny

what's the reason, then?
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red sox 777 posted...

HashtagSEP posted...

red sox 777 posted...

JeffreyRaze posted...

Crime in Germany is way up.

This is the statement by Trump. It is a direct quote. This statement is blatantly false. Can you please condemn it.

You are ignoring the context and being intentionally dumb about understanding his words. 1) What Trump literally says is not what he means. 2) All language should be understood in its context. 3) After 3 years of making hyperbolic statements daily, haven't you learned that 99% of the time, Trump's statements should not be taken literally?

Why should it be the public's fault for taking anything he says literally, and why should it be on them to just know these things, instead of on the man making the claims in the first place?

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me every single day for 3 years.......

JeffreyRaze posted...

At this point even if I assume everything you're saying is true and that is actually what Trump is arguing, it's still not good. Even with the most positive possible interpretation of Trump's statement, he's still said something vague enough to look like a complete lie if taken at face value over what he's declared to be an official channel of the president of the US, which would be gross incompetence and still condemnable, though less so. Can you at least condemn him for that?

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JeffreyRaze posted...

At this point even if I assume everything you're saying is true and that is actually what Trump is arguing, it's still not good. Even with the most positive possible interpretation of Trump's statement, he's still said something vague enough to look like a complete lie if taken at face value over what he's declared to be an official channel of the president of the US, which would be gross incompetence and still condemnable, though less so. Can you at least condemn him for that?

You want me to condemn him for being unpresidential? I agree that he is unpresidential, but don't agree that must necessarily be a bad thing. If it is bad, there's far worse things a president can do.

I have condemned, and continue to condemn, the policy of separating children from their parents. That is an example of something I find very wrong.
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https://twitter.com/Refugees/status/1008803581774966785

We urge the United States to prioritize family unity and the best interests of children as it implements new border management policies along the US-Mexico border.

Full press release: https://t.co/vovw1rcRrm https://t.co/V6hXzNWfNa

Well, it happened. The UN Refugee Agency called out the US
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

The implication that he has no reason to keep exaggerating once hes re-elected is funny

what's the reason, then?

I meant Red Sox was making that implication.

The reason he will continue to do so is that hes a narcissist
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This stat from 538s Pollapalooza irked me

58 percent of Americans (43 percent of Democrats and 81 percent of Republicans) believe that the U.S. benefits from having a class of rich people, according to a new Gallup poll. Thats a 9-percentage-point decrease in Democrats who believe a rich class is beneficial since 2012. Still, Democrats are just as likely as Republicans to want to be rich.

If you are a Democrat or left-leaning in general, and you support the redistribution of wealth, but you still PERSONALLY want to be rich, youre a real fucker.
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Jakyl25 posted...

I meant Red Sox was making that implication.

oh ok.

i'd be fairly suprised if trump runs again in the campaign of the 2020 election, though.
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You could take 90% of the top .1%'s money and spread it around and you'd still have a rich class. They're really not incompatible.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

I meant Red Sox was making that implication.

oh ok.

i'd be fairly suprised if trump runs again in the campaign of the 2020 election, though.

Unless theres a HUGE irrationally large blue wave where Dems take control of both houses of Congress, hes running
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Jakyl25 posted...

Unless theres a HUGE irrationally large blue wave where Dems take control of both houses of Congress, hes running

pretty sure even if they won every senate race up in 2018 they wouldn't be able to convict in the senate
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I didnt mean because of impeachment, I just meant that they might make his job so hard for him that he might quit.

Hes really lucky that Ryan and to a lesser extent Mitch turned out to be such toadies.
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Jakyl25 posted...

This stat from 538s Pollapalooza irked me

58 percent of Americans (43 percent of Democrats and 81 percent of Republicans) believe that the U.S. benefits from having a class of rich people, according to a new Gallup poll. Thats a 9-percentage-point decrease in Democrats who believe a rich class is beneficial since 2012. Still, Democrats are just as likely as Republicans to want to be rich.

If you are a Democrat or left-leaning in general, and you support the redistribution of wealth, but you still PERSONALLY want to be rich, youre a real fucker.

You can want everyone to have a livable wage and still want to be rich.
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Im assuming the definitions of rich were consistent in the poll

Im specifically calling out people that say We are worse off because rich people exist and then say I want to be a rich person.
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He's running unless he thinks he'll lose, which he won't think because he believes he is an electoral genius. The Republican Party follows Trump because they know they'll lose elections if they don't. He eviscerated the best 16 people they could put forward, humiliating them with childish insults. They are the party of Trump now, for better or worse.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Im assuming the definitions of rich were consistent in the poll

Im specifically calling out people that say We are worse off because rich people exist and then say I want to be a rich person.

I would be very interested what a median Democrat thinks is rich and a median Republican. I would expect a pretty big gap between the dollar amount to count as "rich."
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Jakyl25 posted...

If you are a Democrat or left-leaning in general, and you support the redistribution of wealth, but you still PERSONALLY want to be rich, youre a real fucker.

What's wrong with wanting to be rich?

There's a difference between wanting to be rich, and saying "Fuck the poor"

You can be rich, and still advocate for being taxed fairly to support programs like Universal Healthcare and Education. I mean I want to be rich so my kids can afford to go to college, I can pay off my house, and finish off my wife's student debt. Then be able to live comfortably.
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red sox 777 posted...

He eviscerated the best 16 people they could put forward, humiliating them with childish insults.

in fairness, trump was only able to win in the first place because the other republican candidates were so weak. if they can get someone who's actually appealing to run instead of the likes of jeb!, they may not need trump.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

red sox 777 posted...

He eviscerated the best 16 people they could put forward, humiliating them with childish insults.

in fairness, trump was only able to win in the first place because the other republican candidates were so weak. if they can get someone who's actually appealing to run instead of the likes of jeb!, they may not need trump.

You best not be mocking my boi jeb, lasa.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/286/197/c6c.jpg
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I enjoy that Jakyl makes the topic calling iut people who argue with redsox and then argues with redsox
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Eddv posted...

I enjoy that Jakyl makes the topic calling iut people who argue with redsox and then argues with redsox

I did not excuse myself from that analysis
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Ashethan posted...

I mean I want to be rich so my kids can afford to go to college, I can pay off my house, and finish off my wife's student debt. Then be able to live comfortably.

Thats not enough to be a part of a rich class to me.
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Like, to me, having enough wealth to live your best life isnt rich. I believe that level of wealth SHOULD be attainable.

Rich to me is having more money than you can possibly need.
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Eddv posted...

I enjoy that Jakyl makes the topic calling iut people who argue with redsox and then argues with redsox

it also took him like one politics containment topic to argue with corrik again, after declaring him to be "the most misinformed, ignorant person he's ever had the pleasure of speaking to" >_>
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Maybe its just growing up working class but to me "not having to worry about how im going to pay the bills" is rich.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Home of the people insane enough to talk to Red Sox

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Jakyl25 posted...

Like, to me, having enough wealth to live your best life isnt rich. I believe that level of wealth SHOULD be attainable.

Rich to me is having more money than you can possibly need.

But the richer you are, the more money you need.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

Eddv posted...

I enjoy that Jakyl makes the topic calling iut people who argue with redsox and then argues with redsox

it also took him like one politics containment topic to argue with corrik again, after declaring him to be "the most misinformed, ignorant person he's ever had the pleasure of speaking to" >_>

I said in a topic past that we are all very very sick people.

I have at least attempted not to have PROLONGED arguments with Corrik since
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Jakyl25 posted...

I said in a topic past that we are all very very sick people.

Hey...like...speak for yourself, man.
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I'm glad I'm so busy that I don't have time to participate in the futile arguments here anymore, lol.
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Eddv posted...

Maybe its just growing up working class but to me "not having to worry about how im going to pay the bills" is rich.

It sure feels like that, but the realization that there is another, higher class of wealth that is obscene to even comprehend puts that in perspective.

Being able to pay the bills doesnt mean youre prepared for an emergency. If a single disaster can destroy your life financially, youre not rich. There is no single thing that can happen to destroy Elon Musks wealth short of an extinction-level event.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Eddv posted...

Maybe its just growing up working class but to me "not having to worry about how im going to pay the bills" is rich.

It sure feels like that, but the realization that there is another, higher class of wealth that is obscene to even comprehend puts that in perspective.

Being able to pay the bills doesnt mean youre prepared for an emergency. If a single disaster can destroy your life financially, youre not rich. There is no single thing that can happen to destroy Elon Musks wealth short of an extinction-level event.

All it would take is Tesla stock crashing hard, and a few bad investments of his pre-Tesla wealth. Not that hard, considering the company has never turned a profit ever.
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How hard would Tesla stock have to crash to make life difficult for him financially?
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Jakyl25 posted...

How hard would Tesla stock have to crash to make life difficult for him financially?

For it to go to zero, or close to there. Yes, it does happen. GM went to zero, and they actually had a history of profits while Tesla has run losses in every year since it was founded.
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Talk to redsox if you want, can't stop you from screwing up. Gonna have to second with Peace in requesting that you not quote him, though.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Rich to me is having more money than you can possibly need.

The real problem is that these wealthy people don't want to pay their workers much money.

I mean if I was obscenely rich, I'd probably buy some crazy stuff (I'd pay a Japanese Company to buy Konami and finish the Suikoden series, for example. Also Suikoden II remake!) But I'd also buy things like computers for public schools, and I would make sure my employees are paid fair wages instead of trying to keep more for myself.

Of course, I know I'll never be obscenely rich. But I don't think being obscenely rich is necessarily a bad thing. It's only bad when workers aren't being properly compensated. (And of course conservatives will say: "THEN THEY SHOULD GET ANOTHER JOB!")
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