Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 178: Last Topic Wasn't Fair to Flair [POLITICS]

(+) Yeah! (+)

Between this and not believing anyone believed in the pizza conspiracy thing, I think you might just be underestimating the amount of crazy out there
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Suprak the Stud posted...

Visit r/the_donald sometime.

They do mental gymnastics, blame others, say it was "all part of the plan 5D chess", say he's playing for something bigger, do "well democrats did this and it was worse" and on and on and on.

Its also important to keep in mind that a lot of these ideas originate as damage control from Russian trolls posing as American Trump supporters.

They form the narrative for all the loyal meme war soldiers to go out on social media and spread.
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JeffreyRaze posted...

Between this and not believing anyone believed in the pizza conspiracy thing, I think you might just be underestimating the amount of crazy out there

That's fair. I think I often sort of write off people who aren't swing voters because I'm not really interested in what they think insofar as they don't influence elections, but a good part of that Trump as savior group probably are genuine swing voters, and not even of the kind that swings between staying home and voting, but even swings between voting for Democrats and Republicans, which is worth double.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Its also important to keep in mind that a lot of these ideas originate as damage control from Russian trolls posing as American Trump supporters.

I really hope a lot of people I see on twitter are just Russian Trolls. Especially the ones attacking the parkland survivors (and posting pictures of Parkland Shooter's face in replies to them when they specifically ask people not to)

But I have little faith they are when so many conservatives have said terrible things about the Parkland Survivors simply because they don't back the NRA.

It's hard to tell the line between 'real conservative' and 'troll' anymore.
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Its always so creepy to go into someones mentions who has pissed off one side or the other and see baskets of people responding with the exact same buzzwords/images.

It does happen on all sides but I see it SO much more from Trumpers than I do from the left or more traditional right.
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Dancedreamer posted...

I really hope a lot of people I see on twitter are just Russian Trolls. Especially the ones attacking the parkland survivors (and posting pictures of Parkland Shooter's face in replies to them when they specifically ask people not to)

Thats not really how they operate. Those are likely just regular old trolls, sadly.

The paid ones would respond with a politically charged argument against them (or more likely a straw man of them) that would inspire someone who WANTS to disagree with the Parkland kids to say Yeah, thats right! and take it upon themselves to add that argument to their own political conversations.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Its always so creepy to go into someones mentions who has pissed off one side or the other and see baskets of people responding with the exact same buzzwords/images.

It does happen on all sides but I see it SO much more from Trumpers than I do from the left or more traditional right.

It is so weird. I'll see an argument on the_donald, then come here and Ulti and Vlado will be saying the EXACT same argument, almost word for word sometimes.

It's totally different from normal conservatives, who you can debate. It is almost impossible to debate the core 10% or so of Trump supporters, because our facts aren't the same facts and they just shout the same thing and troll.
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Russia is very skilled at propaganda. Incidentally, Elon Musk is creating a website where the public can rate journalists for truth, which is called.....Pravda.
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Suprak the Stud posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Its always so creepy to go into someones mentions who has pissed off one side or the other and see baskets of people responding with the exact same buzzwords/images.

It does happen on all sides but I see it SO much more from Trumpers than I do from the left or more traditional right.

It is so weird. I'll see an argument on the_donald, then come here and Ulti and Vlado will be saying the EXACT same argument, almost word for word sometimes.

It's totally different from normal conservatives, who you can debate. It is almost impossible to debate the core 10% or so of Trump supporters, because our facts aren't the same facts and they just shout the same thing and troll.

Well, Vlado is not American (I think he actually is from the Soviet bloc), and Ulti is not a conservative. Both appear to be having tremendous amounts of fun by posting.
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How does Axios manage to suck so hard
https://twitter.com/elisefoley/status/1001842741528195072
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Suprak the Stud posted...

red sox 777 posted...

Corrik posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

red sox 777 posted...

Trump supporters haven't taken his statements at face value for 3 years. Because they're not stupid enough to believe them as being statements of fact that are supposed to be taken at face value.

Tell that to Corriks FB friends

A lot of people believe every last word he says.

How do they deal with contradictions or broken promises?

Visit r/the_donald sometime.

They do mental gymnastics, blame others, say it was "all part of the plan 5D chess", say he's playing for something bigger, do "well democrats did this and it was worse" and on and on and on.

Corrik and Jakyl are right. There is a core group of Trump supporters, probably between 10 and 25%, that aren't even really Republicans but believe Trump to be some sort of savior of America.

I'd say the % is less than that. And that % includes blind Rs.
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Oh yeah, some great news today: Virginia finally expanded Medicaid!
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LordoftheMorons posted...

Oh yeah, some great news today: Virginia finally expanded Medicaid!

Most states are... And adding work requirements. (Tho I doubt Virginia is adding the requirements).
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Corrik posted...

LordoftheMorons posted...

Oh yeah, some great news today: Virginia finally expanded Medicaid!

Most states are... And adding work requirements. (Tho I doubt Virginia is adding the requirements).

Nevermind. I was wrong.

Medicaid expansion in Virginia, however, will come with strings. The deal calls for the state to apply for a federal waiver to allow it to implement work requirements, copayments and other measures. It also would place new taxes on certain private hospitals to cover state costs.
Work requirements and other policies could cause tens of thousands of residents to lose access to Medicaid coverage, according to the left-leaning Center on Budget and Policy Priorities
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https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1002027245131661312?s=21

The recusal of Jeff Sessions was an unforced betrayal of the President of the United States. JOE DIGENOVA, former U.S. Attorney.

Also someone who has been Trumps attorney

Disclosure, Donald!

(Also the AGs job is not to be loyal to the President)
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Jakyl, thoughts on democrats + some cross over Repubs passing work requirements in Virginia?
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I am against anything that makes it harder for people to get health care
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Jakyl25 posted...

I am against anything that makes it harder for people to get health care

So do you agree it is great news like lordofmorons and that it is great news in all the Republican states that did it also. Or it is bad news like a few of you I remembered argued against it so passionately.

Remember all the Republican states that passed work requirements did it in order to expand their Medicaid also.

On a sidenote: do you think the reporting is interesting how when Republican states do it that it is reported as they added work requirements to Medicaid, but when democrat states do it that it is that they expanded Medicaid?
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Republicans still have a majority in both houses of Virginia's legislature. It's just the lopsided Northern Virginia votes that make it fairly safely blue in presidential elections nowadays (and 2008 was the first time since the 60s).

I wonder if the GOP won back the governorship of VA, if they would consider ceding the Virginia part of the District of Columbia back to the federal government to help out the GOP a bit in elections.
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It is a compromise I am willing to accept to get Medicaid expanded

I do not find your circumstantial memories of how things are reported to be interesting, no.
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http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/389944-fbi-is-reconstructing-shredded-documents-obtained-during-cohen-raid

Looks like Cohen had some freshly shredded documents

What a weird job that must be to restore them
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In general, I oppose work requirements, and also oppose anything that increases demand for private health insurance, because this is what drives up the cost of health insurance. I'm reading on Wikipedia that 80% of states contract out their Medicaid programs to private insurers, so, I hope the states are at least negotiating a good rate for it, but I kinda doubt it. Probably, they are being robbed blind, like everyone else in the country using private health insurance.
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With work requirements, I guess my feeling is that I just don't buy that there are so many people out there who aren't working because they are comfortable with being on welfare. Welfare doesn't provide a lot of money in this country, unless you are talking about stuff like corporate welfare, the federal program to compensate people who lose beachfront houses they build right up against the ocean, California's property tax scheme that is designed to favor long-time (and therefore rich, based on appreciation of property value alone) owners of real property, or rent control. And nothing like that carries work requirements.

People don't work because they can't find a job. Or, possibly, they can't find a job that will pay them anything worthwhile. And sure, making minimum wage would be worth someone's while more if they didn't have access to welfare - but if they had access to more welfare without working, maybe it would also motivate that employer to pay higher wages. While our national unemployment rate is now very low, there are still lots of people in very low paid positions. I'd rather put the burden on employers to compete with welfare than on poor people to find work.
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Jakyl25 posted...

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/389944-fbi-is-reconstructing-shredded-documents-obtained-during-cohen-raid

Looks like Cohen had some freshly shredded documents

What a weird job that must be to restore them

from the sounds of it they got algorithms doing the work for them
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And the conflating of healthcare with health insurance is a brilliant ploy on the part of the health insurance industry, which sadly is working very well. The truth is that the American health insurance industry delivers a substantially worse healthcare product than in every other first world country, and quite a few countries that are much poorer, while charging 60% more as a percentage of GDP. And the US has a higher GDP per capita than most first world countries. My guess is, if you exclude Medicare from the picture the US is getting bilked even harder than that 60% gap.

Here's an example. A visitor was lightly scratched by my cat (indoor, immunized, housecat). It turned out that she was traveling to China the next day. When she got there, she went and saw a doctor regarding the cat scratch, which I thought was completely ridiculous. Well, there were two other people at that doctor's office who were also there for cat scratches! People can see their doctors for stuff like that when it doesn't cost hundreds of dollars to see a doctor for a few minutes.

If we take what other first world countries pay as a percentage of GDP to reflect what quality healthcare would cost in a reasonable market, and the excess in the US as the premium we pay for our system, we would find that out of every $100, a bit over $60 is for healthcare and a bit under $40 is for premiums, which are supposed to be the price of mitigating risk in a normal insurance industry. But we pay the premiums for routine, expected, common procedures here, which is why they are so high compared to the cost of healthcare itself.

And not all of it is going to the health insurance industry as corporate profit - remember that industry employs 2.5% of the country, so a lot of it is being paid out in the form of salaries, advertising, legal fees, lobbying, rents for office space, etc. That's a ton of jobs producing basically zero value. It's an industry of leechcraft, and it's all made possible by this idea that health insurance = healthcare. That more people should be insured because otherwise they wouldn't be able to receive healthcare. And with Obamacare and the help of some sellout or naive Democrats, this idea has become more entrenched than ever, and the premiums are higher than ever.
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And honestly, if blowing up the health insurance markets with 100% premium increases for a year or two is what we need to achieve real change, and affordable healthcare in the United States in the long term, I support President Trump in going for it. The longer we wait, the more painful it will be.
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Suprak the Stud posted...

red sox 777 posted...

How do they deal with contradictions or broken promises?

Visit r/the_donald sometime.

They do mental gymnastics, blame others, say it was "all part of the plan 5D chess", say he's playing for something bigger, do "well democrats did this and it was worse" and on and on and on.

or they just abandon trump, like ann coulter. she had a meltdown because she didn't think trump was building the wall fast enough.

doesn't happen that often since trump does have an unusually hardcore fanbase, but it happens!
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@Suprak_the_Stud
@Jakyl25

Question.

I am currently in a discussion on facebook regarding this.

Your thoughts.

Kim Kardashian meeting with Donald Trump over Prison Reform has a person upset over the fact Kim Kardashian was allowed, of all people, to meet regarding it.

I'l give you their argument and mine in the discussion. See what you agree with. That said, the person I am arguing with I think is a Liberal, but has some minor Conservative tendencies.

Anwyays,

Initial Thought

Person X - I dont even have words for this one, other than to reiterate what a sad state of affairs it is when the trashiest reality TV star of all-time has our presidents ear about issues she has zero firsthand knowledge about

Person Y (not related much) - In all fairness, a bunch of screaming teenagers had his ear about gun reform not long ago

Person X - You cant possibly compare the Parkland kids to Kim K. They watched classmates senselessly shot in cold blood. They had ideas for reform and made their voices heard. I have respect for them, rather than for a woman made famous for doing nothing more than having sex with a rapper on film.

Person Y - Right they had ideas. But witnessing tragedy doesnt make someone an expert in ANYTHING. They had plenty of ideas which is great. However, not all ideas are good ideas.

Person X - They never purported to be experts, though. They went directly to the sources in government and the NRA and asked the hard questions. A lot of people were uncomfortable with the idea of being put on the spot by kids, but I respect their mission. We need to do more to keep guns out of the hands of the wrong people.

Okay... here we go... the main argument.

Person Z (third party of the discussion) - That's not really fair. How many celebrities we're in and out of the White House under Obama, yapping about one policy or another?

Person X - No question Obama had a pretty large celebrity following, as most Democratic presidents do; however, the difference between people like JayZ, Common, and Jennifer Hudson and someone like Kim Kardashian is that they came from poorer backgrounds and have firsthand knowledge of the every day struggles that result. Kim Kardashian was born into privilege and wouldnt know the first thing about being upper middle class, let alone poverty level. Her father helped a high profile murderer walk away scot free. She uses her celebrity status to promote herself and her family, which certainly doesnt make her an activist.

Me - More than Kim Kardashian was invited to the Prison Reform Summit. It has been pretty ongoing for a week or two now. Meek Mill, who many feel was so wrongly punished, turned down his invite and his chance to talk about the issue due to Jay-Z saying it was bad for publicity.

"Van Jones is set to moderate the Prison Reform Summit, with over 100 activists, policymakers and experts in attendance, USA Today reports."

Congress is now in the process of looking at two bills for Prison Reform. One that looks to reform the back end of prison and one that looks to reform the front end.

(Rehabilitating and better serving prisoners to society and reducing or eliminating mandatory minimums).

If you are a Liberal, the fact Trump is making any movement at all on prison reform has to be a considered plus as it has always been more of a position for the Democrats moreso than Republicans which believe more strongly in punishment than rehabilitation. Even if it ends up falling short of eliminating the mandatory minimums and front end reform that many Liberals are hoping for, it was more than was expected by a Republican controlled government.

Person Z - but then we are assuming that every celebrity that gives themselves a platform around a politician has first-hand knowledge of that particular subject?

(Continued)
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Person X - In a perfect world, it would give that celebrity more credibility for their platform. But, lets just be honest here: if it had been ANYONE else with Trump, we probably wouldnt be talking about it, but because its her, we cant take her or Trump seriously.

Person Z - I think any celebrity going on about any policy that has zero to do with their lifestyle is silly and self-serving. I can't take a Hollywood idiot seriously, talking about how awful guns are while they are protected by huge fenced in communities and armed guards, either, but I'm supposed to accept that they have a voice on the matter and shut my own mouth.

Person X - We dont need to stay silent, though. There are very few celebrities who relate to some of the policies they promote. As much as I cant stand her, Taylor Swift is a significant figure for the #metoo #timesup movement because she was a victim of sexual assault. The half of a drop of respect I have for her is the fact she used her experience and her celebrity status to bring about awareness.

Person Z - Again, experience doesn't mean anything. Are only gay celebrities allowed to speak out about gay issues? Are only women who had abortions allowed to speak about abortion issues? Are only female celebrities allowed to discuss female issues? All I'm saying is that is what Kardashian is doing...using her celebrity to try and bring awareness to a cause and get a woman out of prison. The "quality" of the celebrity doing the diplomacy is meaningless.

Person X - I disagree. The quality matters.

Me - I think I agree loosely with both of you. You cannot fully understand something unless you go through it yourself. For example, if you were never raped then you can never fully understand the pain, dehumanization, or repercussions of such an act. No matter how much you empathize, research, or wish to understand. So, in that way, I do agree with Person X.

However on the other end, I do not think this disqualifies someone from having valid, well-meaning, or even correct opinions on the matter. While Kim K is a bit of probably out of touch with real society do to her lifestyle, I cannot definitively say she is not properly aware of the situation and has well-meaning and good opinions regarding the matter. If she is using her status to bring voice to those who have been through it, what does it hurt? Maybe she is furthering the cause.

Remember it was not too long ago that a Conservative pundit on FoxNews took a lot of flak for saying...

"It's always unwise to seek political advice from someone who gets paid $100 million a year to bounce a ball," she said. "Keep the political comments to yourselves. ... Shut up and dribble"

To LeBron James who tried to use his platform to speak politically.

While her comment probably meant the same as yours in that "Is his argument really sensible and how sensible can it be for him to make figuring what he does on a daily basis", and I agree that opinion is a valid one to make or consider in reference to it. Who are we to dismiss his opinion, or hers, outright without at least considering the merit of what they intend to say and the validity of what they have to say first?

End. This is real life political discussions. Not internet forum discussions which break down into tossing insults. What is your thoughts on Kim K meeting with the President, you two?
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I think its super cool of her. Whoever is saying shes trashy and stupid is really off base.

You cant say Well why should the President be taking advice from a reality TV star? when HE IS a reality TV star and wants the White House to basically be reality TV

I think Person X just has a hate boner for the Kardashians
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Corrik posted...

Person Z - I think any celebrity going on about any policy that has zero to do with their lifestyle is silly and self-serving.

I really hope this person did not vote for Trump
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Jakyl25 posted...

Whoever is saying shes trashy and stupid is really off base.

well...
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Jakyl25 posted...

Corrik posted...

Person Z - I think any celebrity going on about any policy that has zero to do with their lifestyle is silly and self-serving.

I really hope this person did not vote for Trump

Actually, I was unsure if that specific comment was a typo'd in some way because it doesn't fit contextually with the rest of that person's comments.
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Dont be elitist, Lasa
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is it elitist to say a person is trashy?
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It really comes across like youre just saying she presents herself in ways I dont approve of.
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Not that this would apply to her, but I really feel disgusted when people use the term white trash.
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Trump is pardoning Dinish D'Souza, who (in addition to being a total hack of a political commentator who regularly defends Trump) was convicted of illegally evading campaign contribution limits:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1002177521599860736

Wonder what signal that's gonna send...!
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Jakyl25 posted...

Not that this would apply to her, but I really feel disgusted when people use the term white trash.

well i know one person who would agree with you on that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A-Z5sRwgLM" data-time="
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LordoftheMorons posted...

Trump is pardoning Dinish D'Souza, who (in addition to being a total hack of a political commentator who regularly defends Trump) was convicted of illegally evading campaign contribution limits:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1002177521599860736

Wonder what signal that's gonna send...!

Gee, almost like he doesn't think that rules should apply to people he likes
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fuck dinesh d'souza
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Not that this would apply to her, but I really feel disgusted when people use the term white trash.

well i know one person who would agree with you on that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A-Z5sRwgLM" data-time="

Hey a good Trump take is always welcome
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LordoftheMorons posted...

Trump is pardoning Dinish D'Souza, who (in addition to being a total hack of a political commentator who regularly defends Trump) was convicted of illegally evading campaign contribution limits:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1002177521599860736

Wonder what signal that's gonna send...!

Awful awful awful awful
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More news: Trump has gone through with """national security""" steel/aluminum tariffs on the EU/Canada/Mexico

Looking forward to the impending trade war which is only going to happen because our president is a fucking moron who doesn't understand freshman-level economics!
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https://twitter.com/warddpatrick/status/1001896754701365248?s=21

Rudy Giuliani was asked if being booed in Yankee Stadium upset him: "No, no. I know Yankee fans. They boo you when they love you."

WWE fans should recognize this logic
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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DefIiqNV0AApR0I?format=jpg&name=large

Okay this is pretty funny
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I pay pretty much zero attention to Kim Kardashian, but the very occasional times I have paid attention I generally get the impression that she's a lot smarter and cares about a lot more issues than the internet gives her credit for.
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https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1002160516733853696?s=21

Not that it matters but I never fired James Comey because of Russia! The Corrupt Mainstream Media loves to keep pushing that narrative, but they know it is not true!

https://twitter.com/nbcnews/status/1002164186481352704?s=21

Pres. Trump to @LesterHoltNBC in 2017:

"When I decided to just do it, I said to myself, I said you know, this Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made up story, it's an excuse by the Democrats for having lost an election that they should have won." nbcnews.to/2JWoRRl

Nothing unusual today, just the President trying to gaslight America again
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Peace___Frog posted...

LordoftheMorons posted...

Trump is pardoning Dinish D'Souza, who (in addition to being a total hack of a political commentator who regularly defends Trump) was convicted of illegally evading campaign contribution limits:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1002177521599860736

Wonder what signal that's gonna send...!

Gee, almost like he doesn't think that rules should apply to people he likes

Every pardon is a blatant disregard for the law.
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