Current Events > why do people even watch Melee?

(+) Yeah! (+)

EVO 2013 Top 4: Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, random

EVO 2014 Top 4: Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, random

EVO 2015 Top 4: Armada, Hungrybox, 2 others (Mango 5th this time GASP all this variation!)

EVO 2016 Top 4: Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, random

Genesis Top 4: Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, random

Genesis 2 Top 4: Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, random

Genesis 3 Top 4: Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, random
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plup won genesis 5
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Who's the lowest tier character that makes it into the top 4?
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Because it's fun to watch
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Nintendo fanboys have Stockholm

Reis posted...

Nintendo fanboys have Stockholm

i wouldn't call Melee fans "nintendo fanboys"

nintendo has been actively hostile towards comp Smash in the past and very few Melee players at the top ever moved on to other titles
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memes and nostalgia

Reis posted...

Nintendo fanboys have Stockholm

Melee fanboys, not Nintendo fanboys.
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a few details, for what it's worth

-None of the players you're calling random are actually random. Wobbles got 2nd at EVO 2013, for example, which was highly unusual and might explain why people were interested in that particular event. You're listing the players, but not the placements, which can matter.

-People in these communities like these players and their personalities.

-Playstyles vary greatly between players of individual characters because the game engine allows you to play characters different ways, meaning a low character count doesn't necessarily exclude diversity of playstyle.

-A consistent upper echelon means that the level of play you see at a top 4 will typically be peak level play, will consist of a lot of nailbiter close sets, etc.
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i should note i am a Smash 4 data analysist/collector and only tune in to Melee every 2-3 months when a big event happens, so I'm not really a "Melee fan" in the same context a lot of people are and have preferred Smash 4 a lot in the last 2-ish years
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Because the gameplay is still better in movement and options than anything Sakurai has done since for Smash. It rewards aggressive play unlike Brawl and Shit 4. Both these games are still very defensive, and incredibly slow even at top level play. Brawls competitive scene died out for a reason. Shit 4 is barely better. Its a more polished Brawl. That is all.
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Because Melee fits more with what the competitive fighting game community wants (basically high complexity) than the other Smash games, which are much simpler to learn and play in general.You'll notice that people outside of the FGC almost never bitch about Smash other than about who was or wasn't included in the roster. Also wavedashing, which ironically is probably not even intentional on the part of Nintendo

Personally, I think their hate of the rest of the Smash franchise is kind of dumb (Smash was never meant for FGC-type gamers anyway and there are plenty of fightning games that do cater to that crowd). Let the rest of us enjoy Smash please.
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Drunken_Idiot posted...

Because the gameplay is still better in movement and options than anything Sakurai has done since for Smash. It rewards aggressive play unlike Brawl and Shit 4. Both these games are still very defensive, and incredibly slow even at top level play. Brawls competitive scene died out for a reason. Shit 4 is barely better. Its a more polished Brawl. That is all.

Aggressive play in Smash 4 is definitely rewarded. It's defensively geared in a lot of areas, but there's a reason a large number of characters that have extremely hard punish games have become some of the better characters.

You'll get defensive match-ups but characterizing Smash 4 as "barely better" than Brawl is pretty dubious when timeouts rarely happen Smash 4 side at all and the number of match-ups that actually do incur timeouts are usually geared towards certain match-ups or characters, and sometimes a character will have to roll with a specific playstyle in order to actually be able to commit to using the clock as a factor.

Brawls competitive scene died out for a reason.

it was more popular than Melee for several years and only really hard decline during its last couple of years, which amounted to six years of popular comp play unsupported by a developer

that's exactly what you would expect from pretty much any standard FGC series. Melee players seem to have this fantasy that because their game has lasted over a decade that it means any game that doesn't last an inordinate amount of time must be shit, and it's a reason a lot of people really don't like the Melee community; segments of it can be extremely arrogant and not that knowledgeable about what exists outside of their bubble.
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-Playstyles vary greatly between players of individual characters because the game engine allows you to play characters different ways, meaning a low character count doesn't necessarily exclude diversity of playstyle.


Is that what Melee players actually think

Cause most Fox/Falco mains are predictable af
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Zero_Destroyer posted...

Aggressive play in Smash 4 is definitely rewarded. It's defensively geared in a lot of areas, but there's a reason a large number of characters that have extremely hard punish games have become some of the better characters.

Ive kept up with the competitive scene up until some months ago. I dont see aggressive play rewarded unless your ability to convert is extremely ridiculous in comparison to the rest of the cast. Bayo can zero to death off the top still, or Witch Time only has five frames to punish with invincibility on start up. Luma can kill off the top at 20%. ZSS Boost Kick can kill off the top at ridiculously low percentages because it has over 200 base knockback or knockback scaling. I forget which. Generally in the game its about two hits, then a reset to neutral until someone wins in neutral again, and it repeats.

You'll get defensive match-ups but characterizing Smash 4 as "barely better" than Brawl is pretty dubious when timeouts rarely happen Smash 4 side at all and the number of match-ups that actually do incur timeouts are usually geared towards certain match-ups or characters, and sometimes a character will have to roll with a specific playstyle in order to actually be able to commit to using the clock as a factor.

The game uses the exact same Havok engine. Im talking about polished mechanics when I say barely better. It removed tripping, momentum canceling is near useless now, etc. The game still has explicit issues. You can still cancel hitstun at frame 40 with an air dodge, and at 45 with an aerial. Air dodges having universally shorter durations limits what follow ups you can do since rage and hitstun cancel mess with combos. Plus given how an extraordinary amount of moves were given tremendous base knockback buffs, several characters from Brawl actually lost combo ability like Lucario. Momentum still doesnt even carry over from jumps.

But what you bring up is also aided by the fact that two stocks are played in competitive as well. This reduces the ability to time out. If the competitive scene is still using two stocks after all this time, theres something skewed about the aggressive/defensive reward in the game.

it was more popular than Melee for several years and only really hard decline during its last couple of years, which amounted to six years of popular comp play unsupported by a developer

Correct. It started losing its competitive scene around 2011 or 2012. Melee was struggling to stay alive. It was a bad period for it. I got into the competitive scene with Brawl, and played it online for a bit before brushing up on mechanics.

that's exactly what you would expect from pretty much any standard FGC series. Melee players seem to have this fantasy that because their game has lasted over a decade that it means any game that doesn't last an inordinate amount of time must be shit, and it's a reason a lot of people really don't like the Melee community; segments of it can be extremely arrogant and not that knowledgeable about what exists outside of their bubble.

I dont know who you claim to speak for, but I dont believe this is the mindset for any Melee players I have ever met. I dont play Melee. I play 64, PM, and SSF2. Melee I like watching, have gone to CEO multiple times, and have talked with high level players about the game. I understand how the games work in Smash, and I know their histories quite well. I dont think you understood all my points though.
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Drunken_Idiot posted...

I dont know who you claim to speak for, but I dont believe this is the mindset for any Melee players I have ever met.

A good portion of Melee fans have this arrogant belief that Melee is the only good Smash game, and any Smash game that doesn't follow in its footsteps 100% is automatically shit.

I feel that they won't accept any new Smash game unless it's literally "Melee 2", and even then, they still may stick with the old Melee due to the time invested in it, whereas the new one would require them learning new match-ups.

I don't hate Melee, but I've definitely moved on from it. I'd rather the new Smash games be their own thing instead of trying to copy Melee.
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Ive kept up with the competitive scene up until some months ago. I dont see aggressive play rewarded unless your ability to convert is extremely ridiculous in comparison to the rest of the cast. Bayo can zero to death off the top still, or Witch Time only has five frames to punish with invincibility on start up. Luma can kill off the top at 20%. ZSS Boost Kick can kill off the top at ridiculously low percentages because it has over 200 base knockback or knockback scaling. I forget which. Generally in the game its about two hits, then a reset to neutral until someone wins in neutral again, and it repeats.

here are some characters who you can play aggressively to some extent who all have high percentage conversions

-Bayonetta

-ZSS

-Sheik

-Fox

-Mario

-Ryu

-Meta Knight

-Luigi

-Pikachu

-Falcon

-Peach

-Olimar

-Lucario w/ Aura

this is just among higher tiered characters though mid/low tiers naturally struggle with conversions

-some can be played defensively anyway

-some integrate defensive play with high pressure conversions -bayo & olimar are good examples, lucario does this with high aura

-some have trouble killing (ala sheik/pikachu) in exchange for high damage building

I don't consider Rosalina a character that constitutes "aggressive" albeit you can certainly do that in specific situations, and I excluded Cloud since he's really only aggressive in his advantage state and honestly it seems like the best way to play him otherwise is defensively. That being said, he also gets massive conversions off of juggles.

Diddy Kong can also be played pretty aggro in certain situations but his game-to-game play is standard Smash 4 neutral, which he excels at

several characters from Brawl actually lost combo ability like Lucario

worth pointing out that Lucario still has a fairly diverse combo game off grabs/utilt; if he's lost ability he still maintains significant combo ability

I dont know who you claim to speak for, but I dont believe this is the mindset for any Melee players I have ever met. I dont play Melee. I play 64, PM, and SSF2. Melee I like watching, have gone to CEO multiple times, and have talked with high level players about the game. I understand how the games work in Smash, and I know their histories quite well. I dont think you understood all my points though.

consistently in online communities that I've been a part of; the line is generally "X game will die" in a negative context when discussing how a game will be dropped when a sequel comes out. It's been pretty common to point this out on some of the larger Smash communities like reddit, for example.

Like I said though - it's segments. The community at large doesn't seem guilty of this and that's likely (at least in part) because top players smartly choose to not drudge up hostility
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like i get that neutral in smash 4 is its defining characteristic and that it swings back & forth, but the point is that punish games have been so heavily optimized at this point that being aggressive is totally rewardable as long as the move your making is based on an understanding of what your opponent is going to do

you use the neutral to understand your opponent's choices, you act on those with a certain move, and characters off that move can often convert pretty drastically high percents. The most basic example is probably Meta Knight who can death combo pretty easily off of a dash attack or grab depending on %s

if this all happened really slowly I'd get the brawl comparisons, and while campy sets do exist plentiful at the high level involving more defensive players, shit like this isn't very uncommon either;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hxd36KYUT4" data-time="

like GENESIS 5's Top 8 smash 4 side ran an hour ahead of schedule and that was WITH two Rosalinas and the most campy Bayonetta player, just as one example of game having the potential to be very fast in part because of how fast conversions get you killed nowadays
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Haha. I like you, Zero. You bring up some good points, and now I have some questions. Ill resume this when Im off the clock here in several hours.
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bump, I'm interested :eyes:
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I don't understand how you can argue that Smash 4 rewards aggressive play and is quick when competitive matches only have two stocks. That's half of the stocks used in Melee...

The game is much slower and isn't combo heavy (1-2 hits and then back to neutral usually whereas Melee has 2-5 hit combos on the regular, and can often combo into kill moves).
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Cpt_Calamity posted...

I don't understand how you can argue that Smash 4 rewards aggressive play and is quick when competitive matches only have two stocks. That's half of the stocks used in Melee...

stock count is irrelevant as to whether or not aggressive play is rewarded

making a move and capitalizing off of it and maintaining an advantage state is something a large number of characters do and many of them do it very quickly and rack up a lot

I'm arguing it can be quick; I already said defensive matches exist because they absolutely do. Certain characters can be played multiple ways, certain characters shift depending on the gamestate and their ease of kill ability, certain match-ups can be faster compared to others because of how two movesets might interact, and sometimes multiple points like this come into play in a single game.

The game is much slower and isn't combo heavy (1-2 hits and then back to neutral usually whereas Melee has 2-5 hit combos on the regular, and can often combo into kill moves).

i don't see people disputing that Melee is faster
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74G8M2kM-Qw" data-time="
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Drunken_Idiot posted...

Because the gameplay is still better in movement and options than anything Sakurai has done since for Smash. It rewards aggressive play unlike Brawl and Shit 4. Both these games are still very defensive, and incredibly slow even at top level play. Brawls competitive scene died out for a reason. Shit 4 is barely better. Its a more polished Brawl. That is all.

Stop spouting your opinion as fact.
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Because it's the only good Smash game
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also needless to say that there's an in between from 1-2 hits > neutral and a long combo video sequence; a lot of situations in Smash 4 are not best described as a return to neutral because the person on the receiving end of hits is typically going to have a harder time re-positioning themselves because the fight has moved moved to the edge of the stage. I wouldn't consider that to be neutral because the pressured player naturally has less room to work with for reasons generally independent of a match-up. They are explicitly disadvantaged unless they're playing against, like, a terrible character that can't cover an aerial option easily.

Doesn't prevent people in that disadvantage from biting back based on what option their opponent took in an attempt to expand their advantage state (namely at the high level where positions frequently shift) but the pace can be very fast. Marth is a pretty solid example of a Smash 4 character that exerts pressure if he has any sort of advantage over you and his user has an ideas of what your response will be.

If the actual true combo itself isn't necessarily extended, the advantage state (extended based on reading your opponent by understanding how they play and what options they pick) may result in them taking extra hits. This is a potential reward of aggressive play. This is also a potential reward of defensive play, but explicitly defensive characters like Sonic are way, way, way more apt to actually straight-up not press advantage they get off of one conversion and remain a threat on an exchange-by-exchange basis that totally reflects a 1-2 hits > neutral game state. Their ability to convert is naturally weaker than Fox, Falcon, Meta Knight, ZSS, etc

I'm not arguing Smash 4 is as fast as Melee. They run on two different engines and have two different styles of gameplay; but Smash 4 can certainly be fast paced and reward aggression even if that reward is not an automatic combo. The same philosophy applies to most platformer fighters I'm aware of, including Melee, where your advantage state goes way beyond you comboing your opponent and can be extended based on your knowledge of how they react in disadvantage.

The difference is probably that Melee more consistently rewards pressed advantage with KOs which justifies a higher stock count comparative to Smash 4 but none of this precludes Smash 4 from having its own aggressive rewards or pressed advantage states
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If the same people make it to the final 4 every time, it means 2 things

1) Melee truly is a skill game and not based on luck. If it were luck, then it would be virtually impossible to get the same line up year after year like this, as randomness would change it up.

2) These players have truly mastered the art of the game far more than any living and breathing soul on this planet. They are the shogun of the melee world.
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Watching competetive melee reminds me of that Goldeneye meme where all the character models start freaking out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP5c_MEs9mo" data-time="
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AlisLandale posted...

Watching competetive melee reminds me of that Goldeneye meme where all the character models start freaking out

I got into GEDDAN very late. Wish there were good versions of that meme out there
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Because I honestly just don't get other professional gaming events (LoL, Overwatch, etc)
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Sativa_Rose posted...

If the same people make it to the final 4 every time, it means 2 things

1) Melee truly is a skill game and not based on luck. If it were luck, then it would be virtually impossible to get the same line up year after year like this, as randomness would change it up.

2) These players have truly mastered the art of the game far more than any living and breathing soul on this planet. They are the shogun of the melee world.

It's actually

3) Its a solved game because the same 8 people practiced the game in the Waffle House bathroom for 11 years while everyone else moved on.
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I think the same people winning all the time makes it so that when someone new finally does win, it's even more exciting. Just look at Plup. Plus, the end result doesn't automatically make every set of the tournament meaningless. The lead up is still fun.
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Zero_Destroyer posted...

Cpt_Calamity posted...

I don't understand how you can argue that Smash 4 rewards aggressive play and is quick when competitive matches only have two stocks. That's half of the stocks used in Melee...

stock count is irrelevant as to whether or not aggressive play is rewarded

making a move and capitalizing off of it and maintaining an advantage state is something a large number of characters do and many of them do it very quickly and rack up a lot

I'm arguing it can be quick; I already said defensive matches exist because they absolutely do. Certain characters can be played multiple ways, certain characters shift depending on the gamestate and their ease of kill ability, certain match-ups can be faster compared to others because of how two movesets might interact, and sometimes multiple points like this come into play in a single game.

The game is much slower and isn't combo heavy (1-2 hits and then back to neutral usually whereas Melee has 2-5 hit combos on the regular, and can often combo into kill moves).

i don't see people disputing that Melee is faster

By only having two stocks, you have less room to make aggressive plays since you risk half your stocks as opposed to a quarter of them.

As for the combos, the point was that the reward for being aggressive is greater. Also, the general question in this topic was why people watch Melee.
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Zero_Destroyer posted...

here are some characters who you can play aggressively to some extent who all have high percentage conversions
Bayonetta
ZSS
Sheik
Fox
Mario
Ryu
Meta Knight
Luigi
Pikachu
Falcon
Peach
Olimar
Lucario w/ Aura

this is just among higher tiered characters though mid/low tiers naturally struggle with conversions

-some can be played defensively anyway

-some integrate defensive play with high pressure conversions -bayo & olimar are good examples, lucario does this with high aura

-some have trouble killing (ala sheik/pikachu) in exchange for high damage building

There's one important question I do have: how are they rewarded for aggressive play in neutral? I think that's an important distinction, because while punish game can be good, lack of aggressive play in neutral is a primary contributor to how slow the game is.

I don't consider Rosalina a character that constitutes "aggressive" albeit you can certainly do that in specific situations, and I excluded Cloud since he's really only aggressive in his advantage state and honestly it seems like the best way to play him otherwise is defensively. That being said, he also gets massive conversions off of juggles.

Rosaluma are definitely a defensive oriented pair. This is what my point was. The game doesn't reward aggressive neutral play because movement is extremely linear, and the overall lack of ability to speed up the game makes it more defensive. Plus given how strong defensive options and recovery options are for most of the cast, and the lack of ability to increase interactions with your opponent, it limits neutral options even more.

Diddy Kong can also be played pretty aggro in certain situations but his game-to-game play is standard Smash 4 neutral, which he excels at

I'm not surprised. Diddy has always been a neutral oriented character even in PM.

several characters from Brawl actually lost combo ability like Lucario

worth pointing out that Lucario still has a fairly diverse combo game off grabs/utilt; if he's lost ability he still maintains significant combo ability

Luc lost a lot more than just combo ability, but that was my main point. I've been a Luc main in Brawl and when I did actually play Smash 4. I was the first on Smashboards to compile his aura damage within increments. His fair was drastically nerfed due to the increased knockback while keeping the same awful damage. Plus his damage output on his important aerials from Brawl were worsened, and the hitboxes are worse. His utilt options and uthrow are basically the same from Brawl. His options are just worse overall now.

consistently in online communities that I've been a part of; the line is generally "X game will die" in a negative context when discussing how a game will be dropped when a sequel comes out. It's been pretty common to point this out on some of the larger Smash communities like reddit, for example.

Like I said though - it's segments. The community at large doesn't seem guilty of this and that's likely (at least in part) because top players smartly choose to not drudge up hostility

Well, to be fair, Brawl and 64 were dropped a lot, and generally have no tournament representation now. But yeah, those people are toxic. It's the actual top level players who really don't dredge up hostility like you said. Armada and M2K in particular are open to other games, and say having more games is good for the community. I think a lot of non-competitive players fail to make this distinction, and bandwagon hate on the competitive community as result. Like GFAQS in particular.
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DarkChozoGhost posted...

Stop spouting your opinion as fact.

And I don't need your input. Also it is fact that Melee does reward aggressive play unlike Brawl or Melee.

Zero_Destroyer posted...

like i get that neutral in smash 4 is its defining characteristic and that it swings back & forth, but the point is that punish games have been so heavily optimized at this point that being aggressive is totally rewardable as long as the move your making is based on an understanding of what your opponent is going to do

I think it's important to make a distinction between what we're trying to say. While a punish game can be good, without the neutral speed and interactions, defensive options increase overall and mitigate aggressive neutral play which leads to much slower play overall. This isn't taking into account the slow engine, reduced attack speed, slower jump squats, lack of movement options, slow gravity, and lack of momentum carrying over into your jumps. Your punish game can be good with conversions, but because it lacks in every other area, the game is extremely slow. Plus it only favors characters whose conversion ability or jank is more polarizing than other characters' punish games.

you use the neutral to understand your opponent's choices, you act on those with a certain move, and characters off that move can often convert pretty drastically high percents. The most basic example is probably Meta Knight who can death combo pretty easily off of a dash attack or grab depending on %s

Of course. This applies to all games. We're both aware of how important neutral is.

if this all happened really slowly I'd get the brawl comparisons, and while campy sets do exist plentiful at the high level involving more defensive players, shit like this isn't very uncommon either;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hxd36KYUT4" data-time="

like GENESIS 5's Top 8 smash 4 side ran an hour ahead of schedule and that was WITH two Rosalinas and the most campy Bayonetta player, just as one example of game having the potential to be very fast in part because of how fast conversions get you killed nowadays

Like I said, it's about the neutral interactions and how slow everything is. A polarizing punish game can lead to quick stocks, but it doesn't work until you get those hits in and read your opponent's DI properly.
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Drunken_Idiot posted...

And I don't need your input. Also it is fact that Melee does reward aggressive play unlike Brawl or Melee.

But you said Smash 4 is shit like it was objective, like people aren't allowed to prefer less aggressive gameplay
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idk how people aren't bored of it after 17 years, can't imagine the meta has changed much at all in that time
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MC_BatCommander posted...

idk how people aren't bored of it after 17 years, can't imagine the meta has changed much at all in that time

I_Stay_Noided posted...

EVO 2013 Top 4: Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, random

EVO 2014 Top 4: Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, random

EVO 2015 Top 4: Armada, Hungrybox, 2 others (Mango 5th this time GASP all this variation!)

EVO 2016 Top 4: Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, random

Genesis Top 4: Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, random

Genesis 2 Top 4: Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, random

Genesis 3 Top 4: Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, random

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DarkChozoGhost posted...

Drunken_Idiot posted...

And I don't need your input. Also it is fact that Melee does reward aggressive play unlike Brawl or Melee.

But you said Smash 4 is shit like it was objective, like people aren't allowed to prefer less aggressive gameplay

I called it shit because it is shit to me. I hate the game. I don't judge people based on what game they prefer. They can enjoy it for all I care. Rather I judge their actions towards me and my community.
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Drunken_Idiot posted...

I called it shit because it is shit to me.

So you're admitting that you can call something shit without stating your opinion is fact.

And my actions towards the community are overall good, with the exception of unreasonable people like King Argorok.
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DarkChozoGhost posted...

And my actions towards the community are overall good, with the exception of unreasonable people like King Argorok.

I never said it was fact. This is you trying to twist my words. Also, no, you're the unreasonable one. I'm not the only one who has noticed this. You asked me how I know about you from the other topic? I've had more than 10 people tell me about you, and it's all the same thing, dude.
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Drunken_Idiot posted...

I never said it was fact.

Same as me and my opinions.
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I_Stay_Noided posted...

MC_BatCommander posted...

idk how people aren't bored of it after 17 years, can't imagine the meta has changed much at all in that time

I_Stay_Noided posted...

EVO 2013 Top 4: Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, random

EVO 2014 Top 4: Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, random

EVO 2015 Top 4: Armada, Hungrybox, 2 others (Mango 5th this time GASP all this variation!)

EVO 2016 Top 4: Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, random

Genesis Top 4: Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, random

Genesis 2 Top 4: Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, random

Genesis 3 Top 4: Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, random

Still conveniently leaving out Genesis 5
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GeneralKenobi85 posted...

I_Stay_Noided posted...

MC_BatCommander posted...

idk how people aren't bored of it after 17 years, can't imagine the meta has changed much at all in that time

I_Stay_Noided posted...

EVO 2013 Top 4: Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, random

EVO 2014 Top 4: Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, random

EVO 2015 Top 4: Armada, Hungrybox, 2 others (Mango 5th this time GASP all this variation!)

EVO 2016 Top 4: Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, random

Genesis Top 4: Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, random

Genesis 2 Top 4: Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, random

Genesis 3 Top 4: Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, random

Still conveniently leaving out Genesis 5

thats because my copypasta doesnt include it

i dont actually keep up with that trash game lol
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@Zero_Destroyer
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I_Stay_Noided posted...

Sativa_Rose posted...

If the same people make it to the final 4 every time, it means 2 things

1) Melee truly is a skill game and not based on luck. If it were luck, then it would be virtually impossible to get the same line up year after year like this, as randomness would change it up.

2) These players have truly mastered the art of the game far more than any living and breathing soul on this planet. They are the shogun of the melee world.

It's actually

3) Its a solved game because the same 8 people practiced the game in the Waffle House bathroom for 11 years while everyone else moved on.

Wrong. Lots of people still play it competitively. I also don't really see how a game like melee could be solved, since execution of strategies is probably harder than coming up with them. It's not like chess or something where once you decide what you are going to do, executing on it is as simple as picking up a piece and moving it. Melee is more like a sport, say baseball, where even if you have perfect "strategy" for swinging the bat, actually executing it perfectly (or close to it) is the far more difficult thing to do.
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Drunken_Idiot posted...

@Zero_Destroyer

@Drunken_Idiot

im typing up responses, was asleep for most of the day
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There's one important question I do have: how are they rewarded for aggressive play in neutral? I think that's an important distinction, because while punish game can be good, lack of aggressive play in neutral is a primary contributor to how slow the game is.

I think the punish game and advantage state are two primary factors that contribute to your reward. There are extreme examples like Falcon who just literally run up and steamroll you if your DI isn't perfect, but characters like ZSS and Fox have to make initiating moves that punish something you did in order to start building damage, and being put in a disadavantage state by either is hard to overcome (which is part of their reward - better option coverage after they get the 1-2 hits because you are often cornered or over their heads where they can continue to hit you.)

Characters like Diddy are way more based on moment-by-moment reads/predictions. I can slap somebody with a forward air, predict they will dash back then dash forward if I noticed that in movement habits, and then grab > uthrow > dair dair > hopefully they're off the stage > now you play defensively on stage with banana hoping to react to their ledge option to continue pressure. I wouldn't consider this as aggressive since death is not commonly an immediate threat and Diddy Kong has to build up until you're at 120%+ most of the time before he can reliably banana/dilt > upsmash.

Sometimes he can Fsmash early but that's usually just an early kill after tacking on damage with continuous reading.

The difference between Diddy and a character like Fox is a character like Fox is more relentless in his approach. He will more commonly go for attacks or moves that extend his pressure in a way that is immediately threatening because his damage output is much higher, his mobility is better, he hits like a truck, and he has options that instantly kill you if you aren't ready (namely Fair > footstool)

To me, that's an example of how the game can be fast and can reward aggressive play. You'll find a lot of the characters I mentioned reward going in.

This is why it's easy to find footage of games that end in 30 seconds without the involvement of SDs; A lot of the characters I mentioned just do things that tack on 70% and you get a read and they're dead and it's all because that player initiated.

most of the characters I mentioned can do something like this in that either they need to initiate or they extend advantage in such a way that it represents you closing doors on your opponent in a very short time span until they're in the range you need them to be in, ala Sheik/Pikachu who can play similar to how I described Diddy but are often very relentless in their pressure and can go as far as killing you off-stage (something Diddy can't do as easily outside Dairs/stage spikes)

Rosaluma are definitely a defensive oriented pair. This is what my point was. The game doesn't reward aggressive neutral play because movement is extremely linear, and the overall lack of ability to speed up the game makes it more defensive. Plus given how strong defensive options and recovery options are for most of the cast, and the lack of ability to increase interactions with your opponent, it limits neutral options even more.

I don't think the existence of Rosaluma means aggressive play isn't rewarded; it just really isn't in certain match-ups. That being said, a regular facet of anti-rosalina gameplay is to aggressively put Luma in check with any sword character can do. This doesn't make Rosa-oriented gameplay fast unless that Rosa is willing to commit without Luma, and very few Rosas ever are, but it's a specifically very defensive character. I would expect them to slow the game down.
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I'm not sure "good players exist" is a compelling reason to not watch a game
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