Poll of the Day > If Trump pulled US forces out of Middle East, would that vindicate him to you?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I could go either way on this, I am curious what you guys think tho.

Trump has signaled that he really wants to pull US forces out of the Middle East. The rest of the White House disagrees.

Of course we've heard this song and dance before, so we need actions before we get our hopes up.

Only if he turned the entire area into glass after the fact.
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I dont really have the view that any leader needs to be vindicated by me

Trump has done a few things that I think may actually be positive steps for our country and has made other decisions that I think are destructive or foolish

I could say the same about Obama though and I voted for the guy twice. I agreed with some decisions he made but I think others were bad for the country
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Mofuji posted...

Only if he turned the entire area into glass after the fact.

Herpity derpity doo.
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He'd still be the sexual assaulter in chief, and a massive massive bigot, so no.
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Considering that withdrawal at this moment would likely be a stupid idea, I would think worse of him. The US has orchestrated a mess over there over the course of the last few presidencies (all of whom have promoted regime change with no thought to the consequences) and, if we just washed our hands, ISIS would rush in and create a hostile, dangerous regime.

Mofuji posted...

Only if he turned the entire area into glass after the fact.

A Ted Cruz voter, I take it? >_>

XianMei posted...

He'd still be the sexual assaulter in chief, and a massive massive bigot, so no.

Maybe you didn't get the notice, but Bill Clinton has been out of office for almost 2 decades.
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It may be stupid, but it is the right thing to do.

I think America's commitment to isolationism would've made Earth infinitely better today. Case in point: WWI would've been a stalemate or a more equal peace and likely led to the failure of communism in Russia, no Nazis coming to power, no Sykes-Picot agreement, and no WWII. People were pretty done with fighting after WWI, hence appeasement, but the victors won so massively because of American aid that Germany essentially got forced into a treaty that guaranteed revenge was coming. I could go on and on, but basically, I blame the aftermath of America's involvement in the first world war for why everything sucks now in so many places.
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Nope, cause he's still a capitalist.
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Why would you stay for 10+ years and only pull out when they actually need you?
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VioletZer0 posted...

It may be stupid, but it is the right thing to do.

No, it's really not. The right thing -- both from a moral and pragmatic standpoint -- would be to ramp up our presence there (while encouraging our allies to do the same) and help them rebuild the region. Granted, pragmatic answer #2 would be installing dictators, giving them free reign to do whatever they want to put down the fighting (thus stopping the flood of refugees and occupying the terrorists), and just hope that they stay friendly to our interests thanks to economic manipulation and bribery. However, that will likely backfire eventually.
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Zeus posted...

VioletZer0 posted...

It may be stupid, but it is the right thing to do.

No, it's really not. The right thing -- both from a moral and pragmatic standpoint -- would be to ramp up our presence there (while encouraging our allies to do the same) and help them rebuild the region. Granted, pragmatic answer #2 would be installing dictators, giving them free reign to do whatever they want to put down the fighting (thus stopping the flood of refugees and occupying the terrorists), and just hope that they stay friendly to our interests thanks to economic manipulation and bribery. However, that will likely backfire eventually.

MOAR IMPERIALISM

no we do not need to ramp up our presence we need to withdraw from the world

We need to stop being the United States empire. We need to withdraw all of our ships, all military presence, all military bases.

Mofuji posted...

Only if he turned the entire area into glass after the fact.

I have a couple things I need to grab from there first, but yeah.
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zebatov posted...

couple things I need to grab from there

You mean their oil.
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VioletZer0 posted...

Zeus posted...

VioletZer0 posted...

It may be stupid, but it is the right thing to do.

No, it's really not. The right thing -- both from a moral and pragmatic standpoint -- would be to ramp up our presence there (while encouraging our allies to do the same) and help them rebuild the region. Granted, pragmatic answer #2 would be installing dictators, giving them free reign to do whatever they want to put down the fighting (thus stopping the flood of refugees and occupying the terrorists), and just hope that they stay friendly to our interests thanks to economic manipulation and bribery. However, that will likely backfire eventually.

MOAR IMPERIALISM

no we do not need to ramp up our presence we need to withdraw from the world

We need to stop being the United States empire. We need to withdraw all of our ships, all military presence, all military bases.

Hell no, As crazy as it is, we do make a difference in the world. Yeah sometimes we fuck up but I honestly believe without us, or some other nation doing what we do, the world would get worse. Also we aren't imperials, we are the world police lol If we step down, the world needs someone else in it's place. Right now no other nation but us has this kind of military power or presence. I honestly feel the world needs some kind of police force, I always thought that would be the point of N.A.T.O. but I don't really know what they do honestly. Dictactors should not have free reign to kill their citizens, Countries shouldn't be taking over other countries, and some nations need protection. Some kind of force like this is needed. If we withdraw from the world like some people want, the first nations to start mass wars is gonna be north korea and russia. Our presence keeps them in check. They are not afraid of anyone elses armies because a lot of nations now, barely even have soldiers. Without us, the world would be worse off, for now anyways.
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VioletZer0 posted...

Zeus posted...

VioletZer0 posted...

It may be stupid, but it is the right thing to do.

No, it's really not. The right thing -- both from a moral and pragmatic standpoint -- would be to ramp up our presence there (while encouraging our allies to do the same) and help them rebuild the region. Granted, pragmatic answer #2 would be installing dictators, giving them free reign to do whatever they want to put down the fighting (thus stopping the flood of refugees and occupying the terrorists), and just hope that they stay friendly to our interests thanks to economic manipulation and bribery. However, that will likely backfire eventually.

MOAR IMPERIALISM

no we do not need to ramp up our presence we need to withdraw from the world

We need to stop being the United States empire. We need to withdraw all of our ships, all military presence, all military bases.

You should probably familiarize yourself with what words actually mean before you use them. Working with foreign governments on a voluntary basis isn't "imperialism."

And a full withdrawal would catastrophic in places. As it is, neither the US nor UN intervenes enough when it comes to war crimes -- we've stood by while genocide was committed in Rwanda, etc, and right now we're turning a blind eye to the mass execution of Rohingya Muslims in Myanmar. However, you might not care about brown lives, so I should remind you that some of those bases are in place to give us access to potential hostile nations in the possibility of war which would help to save American lives.
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We should check with Stormy and see if Trump is even good at pulling out
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Zeus posted...

VioletZer0 posted...

Zeus posted...

VioletZer0 posted...

It may be stupid, but it is the right thing to do.

No, it's really not. The right thing -- both from a moral and pragmatic standpoint -- would be to ramp up our presence there (while encouraging our allies to do the same) and help them rebuild the region. Granted, pragmatic answer #2 would be installing dictators, giving them free reign to do whatever they want to put down the fighting (thus stopping the flood of refugees and occupying the terrorists), and just hope that they stay friendly to our interests thanks to economic manipulation and bribery. However, that will likely backfire eventually.

MOAR IMPERIALISM

no we do not need to ramp up our presence we need to withdraw from the world

We need to stop being the United States empire. We need to withdraw all of our ships, all military presence, all military bases.

You should probably familiarize yourself with what words actually mean before you use them. Working with foreign governments on a voluntary basis isn't "imperialism."

And a full withdrawal would catastrophic in places. As it is, neither the US nor UN intervenes enough when it comes to war crimes -- we've stood by while genocide was committed in Rwanda, etc, and right now we're turning a blind eye to the mass execution of Rohingya Muslims in Myanmar. However, you might not care about brown lives, so I should remind you that some of those bases are in place to give us access to potential hostile nations in the possibility of war which would help to save American lives.

This, it would be utter nonsense honestly. We need to start talking about why we are needed. And weigh the positives to the negatives. What exactly is bad about us being there? There are many things and I am sure a lot of you have the answer. but one thing is true, and that we are needed at this point in time.

We cannot have another Vietnam, we pulled out and southern Vietnam was destroyed. We were the only shield between us and them. Yeah we were losing american soldiers and they were losing their entire country! We fought, no one else fought for them. We backed out because we got tired of fighting and being the only ones actually trying to help. Regardless of the reason we were there, whether it was to fight against communism, oil,imperialism, etc we were the good guys, even if it was too clean up our own mess. We put Ho Chi Minh in power, so we actually had an obligation to save those people.

Just like now, we screwed up the middle east when we removed saddam hussen, who was a evil dictator that performed genocide on his people. You know why we do this? oil you say? or maybe because no one want's another hitler. WW2 is the reason why we started this crusade of policing the world. No one wants to see that happen ever again. Our military is 100% necessary and you thing the world is bad now? Wait for world war 3, right now we are all that stands against it. To pull out or let either of these nations have there way cannot and should not be permitted.

Now I am not saying we are infallible and are possibly not going about it the right way. But we are needed there none the less.
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Mead posted...

We should check with Stormy and see if Trump is even good at pulling out

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yutterh posted...

Zeus posted...

VioletZer0 posted...

Zeus posted...

VioletZer0 posted...

It may be stupid, but it is the right thing to do.

No, it's really not. The right thing -- both from a moral and pragmatic standpoint -- would be to ramp up our presence there (while encouraging our allies to do the same) and help them rebuild the region. Granted, pragmatic answer #2 would be installing dictators, giving them free reign to do whatever they want to put down the fighting (thus stopping the flood of refugees and occupying the terrorists), and just hope that they stay friendly to our interests thanks to economic manipulation and bribery. However, that will likely backfire eventually.

MOAR IMPERIALISM

no we do not need to ramp up our presence we need to withdraw from the world

We need to stop being the United States empire. We need to withdraw all of our ships, all military presence, all military bases.

You should probably familiarize yourself with what words actually mean before you use them. Working with foreign governments on a voluntary basis isn't "imperialism."

And a full withdrawal would catastrophic in places. As it is, neither the US nor UN intervenes enough when it comes to war crimes -- we've stood by while genocide was committed in Rwanda, etc, and right now we're turning a blind eye to the mass execution of Rohingya Muslims in Myanmar. However, you might not care about brown lives, so I should remind you that some of those bases are in place to give us access to potential hostile nations in the possibility of war which would help to save American lives.

This, it would be utter nonsense honestly. We need to start talking about why we are needed. And weigh the positives to the negatives. What exactly is bad about us being there? There are many things and I am sure a lot of you have the answer. but one thing is true, and that we are needed at this point in time.

We cannot have another Vietnam, we pulled out and southern Vietnam was destroyed. We were the only shield between us and them. Yeah we were losing american soldiers and they were losing their entire country! We fought, no one else fought for them. We backed out because we got tired of fighting and being the only ones actually trying to help. Regardless of the reason we were there, whether it was to fight against communism, oil,imperialism, etc we were the good guys, even if it was too clean up our own mess. We put Ho Chi Minh in power, so we actually had an obligation to save those people.

Just like now, we screwed up the middle east when we removed saddam hussen, who was a evil dictator that performed genocide on his people. You know why we do this? oil you say? or maybe because no one want's another hitler. WW2 is the reason why we started this crusade of policing the world. No one wants to see that happen ever again. Our military is 100% necessary and you thing the world is bad now? Wait for world war 3, right now we are all that stands against it. To pull out or let either of these nations have there way cannot and should not be permitted.

Now I am not saying we are infallible and are possibly not going about it the right way. But we are needed there none the less.

This is how egotistical we are that we think the world needs Daddy America to tell them what to do and how to live their lives. Make way for freedom police.

God forbid people are allowed to shape their countries themselves. God forbid that they define themselves on principles other than our own and maybe challenge our economic dominance.

I know it's a difficult to swallow, but the US is the villain of the world

VioletZer0 posted...

This is how egotistical we are that we think the world needs Daddy America to tell them what to do and how to live their lives. Make way for freedom police.

God forbid people are allowed to shape their countries themselves. God forbid that they define themselves on principles other than our own and maybe challenge our economic dominance.

I know it's a difficult to swallow, but the US is the villain of the world

Did you read my other post? I said it doesn't matter if it is us or someone else but somoen needs to police the world. If no one is going to do it, then maybe next time WW3 could happen. Also do you really want other countries to commit genocide among their people? We do what we do because without us, true evil will spread. We don't know what real war is like. If a WW3 happens i am pretty damn sure it will go global. meaning it will come to our soil, if we do nothing. I agree that we haven't always done good and sometimes done horrible things. Maybe we shouldn't police the world anymore. Maybe another nation like china should take over. But one thing is clear. As of right now, we are all the world has.

So how about I ask you something instead and ill listen to your side of the story. Why should we leave these nations? Why should we pull out and go back into isolationism? What would be the benefits to the world of doing such a thing? What will it change?
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yutterh posted...

VioletZer0 posted...

This is how egotistical we are that we think the world needs Daddy America to tell them what to do and how to live their lives. Make way for freedom police.

God forbid people are allowed to shape their countries themselves. God forbid that they define themselves on principles other than our own and maybe challenge our economic dominance.

I know it's a difficult to swallow, but the US is the villain of the world

Did you read my other post? I said it doesn't matter if it is us or someone else but somoen needs to police the world. If no one is going to do it, then maybe next time WW3 could happen. Also do you really want other countries to commit genocide among their people? We do what we do because without us, true evil will spread. We don't know what real war is like. If a WW3 happens i am pretty damn sure it will go global. meaning it will come to our soil, if we do nothing. I agree that we haven't always done good and sometimes done horrible things. Maybe we shouldn't police the world anymore. Maybe another nation like china should take over. But one thing is clear. As of right now, we are all the world has.

So how about I ask you something instead and ill listen to your side of the story. Why should we leave these nations? Why should we pull out and go back into isolationism? What would be the benefits to the world of doing such a thing? What will it change?

The intent is to allow nations to develop themselves the way they want. Free of foreign powers trying to intervene.

If they genocide their own people, that is honestly up to them. It's not up to us. We should intervene if they try to go to war with other countries.

The reason we should go isolationist is that this was the US at its peak. 1900 we were isolationist. We had a small government, no federal taxes, we were free.

WW1 changed everything. We used the wealth we built up into a strongarm government and made the world a worse place.

VioletZer0 posted...

yutterh posted...

VioletZer0 posted...

This is how egotistical we are that we think the world needs Daddy America to tell them what to do and how to live their lives. Make way for freedom police.

God forbid people are allowed to shape their countries themselves. God forbid that they define themselves on principles other than our own and maybe challenge our economic dominance.

I know it's a difficult to swallow, but the US is the villain of the world

Did you read my other post? I said it doesn't matter if it is us or someone else but somoen needs to police the world. If no one is going to do it, then maybe next time WW3 could happen. Also do you really want other countries to commit genocide among their people? We do what we do because without us, true evil will spread. We don't know what real war is like. If a WW3 happens i am pretty damn sure it will go global. meaning it will come to our soil, if we do nothing. I agree that we haven't always done good and sometimes done horrible things. Maybe we shouldn't police the world anymore. Maybe another nation like china should take over. But one thing is clear. As of right now, we are all the world has.

So how about I ask you something instead and ill listen to your side of the story. Why should we leave these nations? Why should we pull out and go back into isolationism? What would be the benefits to the world of doing such a thing? What will it change?

The intent is to allow nations to develop themselves the way they want. Free of foreign powers trying to intervene.

If they genocide their own people, that is honestly up to them. It's not up to us. We should intervene if they try to go to war with other countries.

The reason we should go isolationist is that this was the US at its peak. 1900 we were isolationist. We had a small government, no federal taxes, we were free.

WW1 changed everything. We used the wealth we built up into a strongarm government and made the world a worse place.

Well that's where we have a impasse. I just wouldn't be able to stand by and not help people if we could. Our military honestly should also be part of disaster relief and help war torn nations. Sometimes, you need to fight for others. But yeah your right, we were a great nation at the time and could hold our own. But the world has completely changed since that time. Everyone is interconnected now. Treaties, alliances, trade, etc. We just could not back out from the world and expect it to be favorable for us. We rely on the world as well ya know. In all honesty, the world is the closest together that it has ever been. Which is why it is so important for international policies to be about how we can help the world. But we also need the worlds help in resources. This military juggernaut that we are doesn't come cheap, the luxury 1st world people problems lives we all have, rely on these resources. It is impossible to go back to that time. All we can do is move forward. We can't take steps back.

Here is another question, should we have intervened in WW1 or WW2? should we have just let those powers take over those nations and do nothing?
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I do think that if the US had not intervened in WW1 then WW2 wouldn't have happened to begin with. War of attrition would have worn down both parties, instead of resulting in a total victory.

VioletZer0 posted...

I do think that if the US had not intervened in WW1 then WW2 wouldn't have happened to begin with. War of attrition would have worn down both parties, instead of resulting in a total victory.

WW1 I agree with honestly. I was kind of rooting for Germany lol but we stepped in so ya know, got to go with USA. WW2 was a different story though. That was a just war. The Jewish extermination had to be stopped, Hitler would have made a fine leader if not for the genocide. At the time I honestly don't blame germany for WW2. They were put into a terrible situation and cornered. The genocide is unforgivable and should never ever be allowed to happen.

https://i.redd.it/t84xensr2gzz.jpg
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There is an ongoing ethnic genocide going on in North Korea, should we intervene?

VioletZer0 posted...

There is an ongoing ethnic genocide going on in North Korea, should we intervene?

We don't have to the same we needed too with others. That is the point of the sanction and treaties against them. They are being pressured into stopping that. Also that bag is much more complex and you know it.
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VioletZer0 posted...

There is an ongoing ethnic genocide going on in pretty much all of Earth except North America, should we intervene?

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