Current Events > ITT: A gun-control advocate learns about guns

(+) Yeah! (+)

I always hear that it's impossible to argue with liberals or gun-control advocates because they know nothing about guns and don't use the correct terminology. So, I want to learn.

Speaking with Pepys Monster, TropicalWood, AssaultTank, and a few others yesterday, I learned the following:
AssultTank posted...

The types of guns are generally as follows.

Single action; usually a revolver but you must manually pull the hammer down to prime the gun to fire.

Double action; with this type of gun, when you pull the trigger it primes the hammer and fires the gun. Also usually a revolver.

Bolt action; usually rifles, but the bolt must be manually cycled to ready the next round.

Pump action, basically bolt action for shotguns.

Semi-automatic; one trigger pull fires the round and cycles the bolt for the next round to be readied. Most rifles and pistols are semi automatic. Some shotguns are as well.

Slam fire, pump action but if you hold the trigger while pumping it will fire again.

Assault rifle; a select fire rifle capable of semi automatic, automatic, and in most cases burst fire.

Burst fire; one trigger pull fires a set number of rounds, usually 3.

Automatic; bullets fire as long as the trigger is held.

My first blush response to that was that single, bolt, and pump (as well as maybe double) seem to be reasonable for home defense while also providing just a LITTLE extra time to either take cover or possibly tackle an assailant in a mass shooting scenario. In response to that, I got linked to these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_a7pXWi6xo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgav7mNzIYo

Those show that even with the "lesser" rates of fire, you can still shoot incredibly fast under the right circumstances.

So I suppose my first question is this: are those videos above showing shots that just about anybody could pull off while attacking a school/mall/etc, or am I watching trick shots? If the former, then that concerns me, but if the latter, then it starts falling the category of "any killer with enough motivation and creativity will find a way to pull it off." In the vein of "does it have to be so freaking easy, though?", what am I seeing in those videos?
---

In a high stress situation it is highly doubtful someone can manually operate their gun at peak efficiency. With semi autos it is one less thing to worry about like short stroking the pump or lever. However semi autos can fail too, but usually not with user error.
---

no, not everyone can actually accurately shoot 5 rounds out of a Colt SAA in under a second

is that something you even need to ask?
---

Yeah, no one can do 5 in under a second, but 5 in 10 seconds...
---

Unsugarized_Foo posted...

Yeah, no one can do 5 in under a second, but 5 in 10 seconds...

This is sort of what I'm getting at. Obviously the second video in particular is an incredibly skilled dude, but what about the first?

Moreover, even if they're "the best," how far above the layman are they?
---

its takes more practice to get that fast, but its not incredibly hard. lever actions are also capable of firing even faster. same with pump shotguns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3m-WNk44hI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG4wNhVaAfc

now thats not to say anyone can pull those off, but it does give you an indication of what the weapons themselves are still capable of. and they do make stripper clips, moon clips, stick loaders ect. that drastically cut down on reload time.

https://youtu.be/xXkyEbrqNGw?t=76
---

Thanks for the information.

Mainly, I'm trying to figure out what I'm talking about with accurate terminology. I do believe in the right to own a gun for self-defense, but I'm trying to learn all the various type of guns so that I can accurately and properly articulate where I think the line should be drawn (whether or not people agree will be another story entirely, obviously). I don't think you need a particularly destructive gun to, say, ward off a home invader, for example, so trying to identify which make sense to me and which seem to be (again, in my estimation) unnecessary is what I'm working towards.

I do understand that it's probably hard to gun owners to take people seriously when they say "we need to ban assault rifles!" when they've been banned for ages -- it probably sounds a bit like when I hear right-wing people say we need to ban third-trimester abortions and other shit that makes no sense. Education never hurt anyone.
---

The difference between "assault rifle" and "assault weapon" is the big one. An assault rifle is select fire and capable of automatic and/or burst fire, that is correct. An assault weapon is any weapon with some cosmetic features that the government deemed scary, regardless of functionality.
---

So basically there's no such thing as an "assault weapon" in terms of an actual type of gun, it's just a blanket term for scary-looking-thing? I can agree that's way too vague to be applicable in a legal setting.
---

Mr_Biscuit posted...

So basically there's no such thing as an "assault weapon" in terms of an actual type of gun, it's just a blanket term for scary-looking-thing? I can agree that's way too vague to be applicable in a legal setting.

outside of magazine capacity, yeah basically.

only one of these was on the AWB
---

Gotcha.

So if both the guns in the image you posted can fire around 800 rounds per minute, what type of guns fire... considerably less than that?

We can debate the nitty gritty of should we/shouldn't we later, but certainly guns exist that don't shoot literally 800 bullets in a minute, yeah?
---

800rpm are the full auto versions (assault rifles) and are highly regulated. the semi-auto fully legal versions youre lucky to get off around 100-150rpm.

Dark_Spiret posted...

800rpm are the full auto versions (assault rifles) and are highly regulated. the semi-auto fully legal versions youre lucky to get off around 100-150rpm.

The thought of someone belting off ~13 trigger pulls per second on a semi-automatic weapon for a full minute does sound pretty cool to watch, tbh.
---

Ah okay, that makes more sense. I was wondering how the fuck you were supposed to shoot 800rpm with a trigger pull per bullet but assumed the image was still talking semi-auto. Didn't really do that math, lol.

What about the next step down from there, though? Perhaps it's just a Hollywood thing, but your cliche *chicka-BOOM* gun that takes a second between shots. That seems to be true of pump action shotguns, but are there rifles or handguns that operate similarly or with a similar timeframe between rounds, at least?
---

Its so nice to see someone willing to be educated even if they have an opposing view, having intelligent debate is so much better then arguing with an uneducated idiot who has no clue about what they are talking about.

Lever action rifles opperate similarly to pump action shotguns and bolt action rifles in that there is a delay between shots, the old west had many lever action rifles.
---

Why do the news people say that the AR-15 projectiles fire at a much faster rate of speed and cause much more damage than normal guns? After the Vegas shooting they were talking about how the type of injuries that the hospitals were seeing were worse than typical gun injuries because of the gun used.

Is there truth to that or is it just comparing rifles to hand guns?
---

bolt action rifles, singel action revolvers and pump shotguns are what youre talking about. but even then it all comes down to the individuals own skill. something slow as hell like a 1886 single action revolver can still fire fast as hell (like the video you posted) with practice. people will come up with their own solutions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RdAhTxyP64
bumpfiring without a stock.

whitelytning posted...

Why do the news people say that the AR-15 projectiles fire at a much faster rate of speed and cause much more damage than normal guns? After the Vegas shooting they were talking about how the type of injuries that the hospitals were seeing were worse than typical gun injuries because of the gun used.

Is there truth to that or is it just comparing rifles to hand guns?

This, IIRC, was at least partially because the dude used a bump stock, which effectively makes a semi-auto into a full auto. Trump has suggested legislation banning those.

As far as the actual INJURIES being worse, not sure about that.
---

Dark_Spiret posted...

Mr_Biscuit posted...

So basically there's no such thing as an "assault weapon" in terms of an actual type of gun, it's just a blanket term for scary-looking-thing? I can agree that's way too vague to be applicable in a legal setting.

outside of magazine capacity, yeah basically.

only one of these was on the AWB

Little note on the Mini-14, those were supposed to replace the M14 as a service rifle (they were changing calibers) but Ruger was too slow so the AR15 was reluctantly adopted by the Military because they quite with their ultra light weight barrels made with an aluminum composite that caused them to just barely fail the barrel life.

I say the military was reluctant to adopt the AR platform, because they really didn't like the weapon's ergonomics because they're so vastly different from what they've always used.
---

@whitelytning

They love to paint the AR-15 as this evil scary black rifle is why, the gun fires .223/5.56(.223 is not the same as 5.56 they are different) calibur rounds which are rifle rounds. Most rifle rounds do more damage then handgun, or SMG rounds because they are larger, penatrate more, and travel a longer distance.

A ruger mini 14 and a AR-15 fire the same calibur bullets but the AR-15 is the evil black rifle which is why the doctors are saying all the bullcrap that anti gunners love.
---

Dark_Spiret posted...

bolt action rifles, singel action revolvers and pump shotguns are what youre talking about. but even then it all comes down to the individuals own skill. something slow as hell like a 1886 single action revolver can still fire fast as hell (like the video you posted) with practice. people will come up with their own solutions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RdAhTxyP64
bumpfiring without a stock.

Yeah, I'd heard about the bump technique. To me, a gun with an ability to fire like that seems... pretty unnecessary, even if he is using a workaround.

My question from there, though, is what kind of clip size are we talking about between, say, a guy firing a single action revolver really fast vs a guy firing an AR15 really fast? It sucks that there's no way to fully prevent "beating the system," but if you can only fire so many bullets before at least having to pause and reload, that is helpful.
---

Magazine limits do not actually save anyone, a shooter will sinply carry more mags vs having fewer but doing the same amount of damage.

Less rounds also makes a shooter force them self to be more picky about where they shoot so they cause the most damage possible. Instead of just hosing a crowd with a full 30 rounds they will take more careful shots with only 10 rounds to ensure the people they shoot die with more percise aiming to vital organs.
---

Offworlder1 posted...

Magazine limits do not actually save anyone, a shooter will sinply carry more mags vs having fewer but doing the same amount of damage.

Less rounds also makes a shooter force them self to be more picky about where they shoot so they cause the most damage possible. Instead of just hosing a crowd with a full 30 rounds they will take more careful shots with only 10 rounds to ensure the people they shoot die with more percise aiming to vital organs.

That's an interesting point. That said, do you suppose most deranged gunmen, like a school shooter, have the know-how and ability to take precision shots like that? It would seem like the majority of them are more concerned about just firing as much as possible, as quickly as possible. I know that's a hypothetical, but worth discussing.

And doesn't "carrying more mags" still require pausing to reload, or am I missing something?
---

It does, but reloading doesn't take long at all
---

Mr_Biscuit posted...

As far as the actual INJURIES being worse, not sure about that.

There is some variation because of the different ways that bullets are constructed for intentional stopping power or lack thereof, but generally a rifle round is going to cause more cavitation as it moves through the body than a pistol round. Meaning it transfers more energy to the tissues surrounding the actual path of the bullet, creating more trauma. So usually a gunshot wound from a rifle is going to be more damaging than being shot in the same place with a pistol.
---

Ill expalin it this way: when playing a video game there are some with sections where your on the rails and you have you have to femd off the enemy. Many games give you unlimited ammo for these sections and you can just hose down the enemy, others however give you only so much ammo and you need to make your shots count forcing you to hit the enemy where it will do the most damage and be more accurate with shot placement.

When a shooter has low capacity mags they will be more likely to make it count because they were inconvenienced by 10 rounds and it likely pisses them off too.

Just my thoughts on it.
---

AR15 rounds go about 3x faster than a .45. what this does is open a large wound channel through its shock wave and in the case of 55grain bullets they tend to tumble and fragment when hitting objects causing more damage. their nasty little things, but its stupid to call out the AR specifically. any standard rifle round is going to fuck you up. this also comes down to hallow points. even a 9mm round going 1300fps (vs 3200fps for a 5.56) with a hallow point will do serious damage. infact because the 9mm wont really tumble they tend to go through more objects than the 5.56. this can actually make the ar15 be more viable for home defense than a handgun since you dont have to worry about collateral damage as much.

Mr_Biscuit posted...

My question from there, though, is what kind of clip size are we talking about between, say, a guy firing a single action revolver really fast vs a guy firing an AR15 really fast?

magazine size when it comes to a lot of guns is largely superficial when you can reload fast or bring more magazines. you do have to pause, but even thats about 1-2 seconds to do so. even revolvers with some practice can be fast to reload.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anZ2Q2LWTv8
(and this guy isnt even that fast)

when it comes to aiming and at the distance most of these situations happen at it doesnt take much to get big results.

I do kinda chuckle when people refer to an ar15 as an assault rifle. Technically my sks is also a military semi auto, and the rounds are a fair bit bigger.
---

NES4EVER posted...

I do kinda chuckle when people refer to an ar15 as an assault rifle. Technically my sks is also a military semi auto, and the rounds are a fair bit bigger.

Yeah it's really funny the way people make minor semantic mistakes where their children keep getting needlessly massacred all the time.

Absolute laugh riot.
---

@Dark_Spiret

That guy is reloading average speed in my book, not really trying for a quick reload, taking his time but showing it is not difficult to reload a revolver faster with these speed loaders.

Not insulting the dude but he is likely going slower just to show people what is possible.
---

UnfairRepresent posted...

NES4EVER posted...

I do kinda chuckle when people refer to an ar15 as an assault rifle. Technically my sks is also a military semi auto, and the rounds are a fair bit bigger.

Yeah it's really funny the way people make minor semantic mistakes where their children keep getting needlessly massacred all the time.

Absolute laugh riot.

Didn't realise the families were the only ones joining in the debate.

Also I'm sorry whatever crawled up your butt had to die. What a terrible way to go.
---

UnfairRepresent posted...

NES4EVER posted...

I do kinda chuckle when people refer to an ar15 as an assault rifle. Technically my sks is also a military semi auto, and the rounds are a fair bit bigger.

Yeah it's really funny the way people make minor semantic mistakes where their children keep getting needlessly massacred all the time.

Absolute laugh riot.

You do realize that semantics literally is the difference between a legal firearm and illegal one, right?
---

Dark_Spiret posted...

you do have to pause, but even thats about 1-2 seconds to do so. even revolvers with some practice can be fast to reload.

This might not mean anything in a Vegas shooter scenario, but I feel like 1-2 seconds could be life or death in a school or club shooting scenario in terms of someone tackling a guy or just getting behind a door.

Overall I've gained a lot of info from this topic and I appreciate your willingness to talk with me about it. It seems to me that between single action, bolt action, lever action, and pump shotguns, you've got enough variety and range to comfortably hunt and defend yourself, and from there, a potential killer training for however long it would take to become that proficient at firing a revolver at ridiculous speeds may just kind of fall under that unfortunate umbrella of "you can't prevent everything."

I'm sure some of you may still disagree with that take, but I'm glad I can articulate my thoughts more clearly. I'm planning on sharing this info with my friends (who mostly fall on my side of the debate) so that when we do have these discussions, we can at least all be speaking from a place of understanding terminology.
---

NES4EVER posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

NES4EVER posted...

I do kinda chuckle when people refer to an ar15 as an assault rifle. Technically my sks is also a military semi auto, and the rounds are a fair bit bigger.

Yeah it's really funny the way people make minor semantic mistakes where their children keep getting needlessly massacred all the time.

Absolute laugh riot.

Didn't realise the families were the only ones joining in the debate.

Also I'm sorry whatever crawled up your butt had to die. What a terrible way to go.

It was 17 kids.

And yeah it's really sad that they had to die. Would be nice if we did something to stop it next time.
---

UnfairRepresent posted...

NES4EVER posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

NES4EVER posted...

I do kinda chuckle when people refer to an ar15 as an assault rifle. Technically my sks is also a military semi auto, and the rounds are a fair bit bigger.

Yeah it's really funny the way people make minor semantic mistakes where their children keep getting needlessly massacred all the time.

Absolute laugh riot.

Didn't realise the families were the only ones joining in the debate.

Also I'm sorry whatever crawled up your butt had to die. What a terrible way to go.

It was 17 kids.

And yeah it's really sad that they had to die. Would be nice if we did something to stop it next time.

Yeah, if only people reported this guy was planning to shoot up a school to local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies. They ALWAYS do their jobs so well, proving that we don't need to defend ourselves - the government will always flawlessly provide.
---

Mr_Biscuit posted...

Dark_Spiret posted...

you do have to pause, but even thats about 1-2 seconds to do so. even revolvers with some practice can be fast to reload.

This might not mean anything in a Vegas shooter scenario, but I feel like 1-2 seconds could be life or death in a school or club shooting scenario in terms of someone tackling a guy or just getting behind a door.

Overall I've gained a lot of info from this topic and I appreciate your willingness to talk with me about it. It seems to me that between single action, bolt action, lever action, and pump shotguns, you've got enough variety and range to comfortably hunt and defend yourself, and from there, a potential killer training for however long it would take to become that proficient at firing a revolver at ridiculous speeds may just kind of fall under that unfortunate umbrella of "you can't prevent everything."

I'm sure some of you may still disagree with that take, but I'm glad I can articulate my thoughts more clearly. I'm planning on sharing this info with my friends (who mostly fall on my side of the debate) so that when we do have these discussions, we can at least all be speaking from a place of understanding terminology.

Virginia Tech shooter used multiple ten-round magazines. Nobody was saved due to magazine size restrictions then.
---

darkjedilink posted...

Virginia Tech shooter used multiple ten-round magazines. Nobody was saved due to magazine size restrictions then.

You can say with 100% certainty that not a single person got out of his way in the time it took him to reload?

It's a hypothetical, not an assertion.
---

Mr_Biscuit posted...

darkjedilink posted...

Virginia Tech shooter used multiple ten-round magazines. Nobody was saved due to magazine size restrictions then.

You can say with 100% certainty that not a single person got out of his way in the time it took him to reload?

It's a hypothetical, not an assertion.

Considering where the shots were fired, yes, we can.
---

@Mr_Biscuit

Semi automatics are also legit home defense weapons, many pistols like glock, beretta, and sig saur are semi autos with enough rounds/reliability to keep people safe.

Semi autos are also good conceal carry guns as they can be carried more easily and discreetly.

Its automatic and burst fire weapons that are not ideal for home defense and should require a $200 tax stamp as class 3 weapons should require permits to own.
---

UnfairRepresent posted...

And yeah it's really sad that they had to die. Would be nice if we did something to stop it next time.

Agencies actually entering shit into NICS would have. Or, at the very least, significantly discouraged this asshole, and the asshole who shot up that church in Texas last November.

whitelytning posted...

After the Vegas shooting they were talking about how the type of injuries that the hospitals were seeing were worse than typical gun injuries because of the gun used.

There's also the fact that the shooter was several stories up.
The human body is longer vertically than horizontally, thus a bullet that would have created a mess and then exits, would continue to make a mess for significantly longer.

Vegas was a perfect storm a a huge crowd, unobstructed line-of-sight, and having the high ground.

Offworlder1 posted...

@Mr_Biscuit

Semi automatics are also legit home defense weapons, many pistols like glock, beretta, and sig saur are semi autos with enough rounds/reliability to keep people safe.

Semi autos are also good conceal carry guns as they can be carried more easily and discreetly.

Its automatic and burst fire weapons that are not ideal for home defense and should require a $200 tax stamp as class 3 weapons should require permits to own.

That's where you and I will probably start to disagree. Not because semi-autos wouldn't be viable home defense weapons -- I'm quite certain they would be -- but because I believe at that point you start crossing the threshold of necessity. There are lots of things that would certainly work quite well as methods of defending my home that I don't think should be legal for me to just run out and purchase, at least without extensive licensing like you mentioned for full autos. Maybe it's not a semi-auto BAN so much as just lumping them in with things that are kind of a pain in the ass to get your hands on but still fully doable for responsible gun owners.
---

I was not trying to name names but yeah the Virgina Tech shooter is a prime example of what I was saying before about 10 round limits do nothing except force a shooter to make the shots count.

He was a evil person but his accuracy, targeting, and shot placement are proof that even with reload time he made his shots count which is why I feel mag limits only make shit worse. A dude spraying and praying is not as deadly as a person taking their time to aim to do the most damage.
---

darkjedilink posted...

Yeah, if only people reported this guy was planning to shoot up a school to local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies. They ALWAYS do their jobs so well, proving that we don't need to defend ourselves - the government will always flawlessly provide.

"The government and police will always cock-up and make mistakes. Therefore it's clear that we should allow lunatics to buy AR-15s so they can shoot up schools."

Jesus Christ.

Know what the UK did when they had a much smaller school shooting? They banned guns that served no purpose beyond basic self-defense, farming and a few other industries.

And guess what happened? They never had a school mass shooting again. Neither did France, Japan, Australia, Canada etc.

Know what a lunatic in the UK can't do? Buy a semi-automatic AR 15 rifle and shoot up a school.

Know what a sane person in the UK Can do? Buy a straight pull .223 AR15, or a shotgun. Once they've filled out hours of paper-work, displayed that they are sane, have a liscence and an explanation for why they need it talking with police and local authorities with background checks, references and regulations.

What a crazy thought.

You talk like this is an idea that hasn't been tried and tested and shown to be effective all other the place. Laughing at the mothers of dead kids for incorrectly calling a semi-automatic an automatic just seems like intentionally cowardly ignoring the point because you know it's a good one.

The type of legislation people desperately want is not nearly as tricky nor as ridiculous as you imply.
---

UnfairRepresent posted...

The type of legislation people desperately want is not nearly as tricky nor as ridiculous as you imply.

https://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A5.html

UnfairRepresent posted...

darkjedilink posted...

Yeah, if only people reported this guy was planning to shoot up a school to local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies. They ALWAYS do their jobs so well, proving that we don't need to defend ourselves - the government will always flawlessly provide.

"The government and police will always cock-up and make mistakes. Therefore it's clear that we should allow lunatics to buy AR-15s so they can shoot up schools."

Jesus Christ.

Know what the UK did when they had a much smaller school shooting? They banned guns that served no purpose beyond basic self-defense, farming and a few other industries.

And guess what happened? They never had a school mass shooting again. Neither did France, Japan, Australia, Canada etc.

Know what a lunatic in the UK can't do? Buy a semi-automatic AR 15 rifle and shoot up a school.

Know what a sane person in the UK Can do? Buy a straight pull .223 AR15, or a shotgun. Once they've filled out hours of paper-work, displayed that they are sane, have a liscence and an explanation for why they need it talking with police and local authorities with background checks, references and regulations.

What a crazy thought.

You talk like this is an idea that hasn't been tried and tested and shown to be effective all other the place. Laughing at the mothers of dead kids for incorrectly calling a semi-automatic an automatic just seems like intentionally cowardly ignoring the point because you know it's a good one.

The type of legislation people desperately want is not nearly as tricky nor as ridiculous as you imply.

So, fuck the Constitution? Fuck laws? Let's just fuck everyone's rights because YOU are scared?
---

When semi autos are so common that police, military, fed, criminals, and citizens all use them they should not be harder for honest people to get.

If someone is attacking you with a gun you want to be on equal footing or have the advantage. A glock is the most known semi auto pistol in the USA and most criminals use them, gimping the citizens or making it bs hard to get a glock or semi auto of their own is not the right answer.

In the event of a home invasion I think most people would want to have a semi auto pistol option at the least as 6 or 7 rounds might not be enough if there are multiple people.

@Mr_Biscuit
---

I hear ya. I still just tend to think that, if someone's breaking into my house and I grab my rifle and aim it at the door, I've still got the leg up. Maybe that's because I can't really picture myself ever needing another use for it aside from home invasion, but if I've got a gun of any type aimed at a door someone's trying to get into, I feel pretty good about my chances.

I do hear you on "criminals already have them," but I think there's a case to be made for that slowly thinning out over time and the majority of criminals are using them on each other (which is another problem, but for another day).
---

Offworlder1 posted...

When semi autos are so common that police, military, fed, criminals, and citizens all use them they should not be harder for honest people to get.

Any military that takes itself seriously will not limit itself to semi-automatic weapons.

You have a point, though many gun owners use their AR-15 for sport/recreation not just a home defense weapon.

I personally use my AR-15 for target shooting and would love to get into 3 gun someday with my go to pistol and shotgun.

Cant imagine not having them for recreation and home defense, my handguns are also my duty weapons for my job so I would be really pissed without my tool of the trade.

@Mr_Biscuit
---

Questionmarktarius posted...

Offworlder1 posted...

When semi autos are so common that police, military, fed, criminals, and citizens all use them they should not be harder for honest people to get.

Any military that takes itself seriously will not limit itself to semi-automatic weapons.

That's not what he's saying. He said they use them, not that it's ALL they use.
---