Poll of the Day > Another day, another school shooting in the US

(+) Yeah! (+)

The deputy who was present at the school has resigned after the reveal that he knowingly waited outside of the school while the shooting was going on.
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Honestly less guns = less gun violence. It is not rocket science. And since the market won't alleviate the problem this is one of the few instances the government needs to step in and regulate.

This is coming from a libertarian.
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ImmortalityV posted...

Honestly less guns = less gun violence. It is not rocket science. And since the market won't alleviate the problem this is one of the few instances the government needs to step in and regulate.

This is coming from a libertarian.

So thats why every where with less guns, has less gun violence... seriously more guns is not the answer
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this just in: criminals don't obey laws, writing more laws won't affect them. shocking stuff. tune in next week at 11 for the next event orchestrated by the CIA/FBI/mossad for which we'll provide you with zero evidence yet adamantly tell you what to think and feel about it.

Blighboy posted...

The deputy who was present at the school has resigned after the reveal that he knowingly waited outside of the school while the shooting was going on.

Having that gun sure did help.
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hypnoticspector posted...

this just in: criminals don't obey laws, writing more laws won't affect them. shocking stuff. tune in next week at 11 for the next event orchestrated by the CIA/FBI/mossad for which we'll provide you with zero evidence yet adamantly tell you what to think and feel about it.

So let's get rid of all laws! Stupid logic.
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Jen0125 posted...

So let's get rid of all laws! Stupid logic.

i'm actually a proponent of that, it's called anarchy. the thing about that sort of system is that it requires people to be intelligent and compassionate. note, anarchy is not defined as chaos, simply the absence of government. intelligent, compassionate, responsible people can make an anarchy work well. too many people are stupid and selfish, and no matter how much legislation is written they will continue to cause problems. because they are stupid and selfish.

it's already illegal to bring guns in certain places. it's illegal to assault/batter/murder someone. it's illegal for some to acquire guns. guess what? criminals still do it. criminals don't obey laws. do you not understand that? are you not familiar with how prohibition went? making alcohol illegal didn't make it go away. making guns illegal won't make them go away. the criminals will still acquire/make them while law abiding citizens would have no defense. do you not understand that?

furthermore, a gun is an inanimate object. guns can't do anything on their own. they are simply tools. guns are not the root cause of the issue at hand, the improper use of guns is merely a symptom. the root cause is the mental / intelligence issues of the individual misusing guns, or whatever weapon they gain access to. attempting to fix issues by addressing symptoms does absolutely nothing to address the root cause. do you not understand that?

what do you actually understand?

hypnoticspector posted...

Jen0125 posted...

So let's get rid of all laws! Stupid logic.

i'm actually a proponent of that, it's called anarchy. the thing about that sort of system is that it requires people to be intelligent and compassionate. note, anarchy is not defined as chaos, simply the absence of government. intelligent, compassionate, responsible people can make an anarchy work well. too many people are stupid and selfish, and no matter how much legislation is written they will continue to cause problems. because they are stupid and selfish.

it's already illegal to bring guns in certain places. it's illegal to assault/batter/murder someone. it's illegal for some to acquire guns. guess what? criminals still do it. criminals don't obey laws. do you not understand that? are you not familiar with how prohibition went? making alcohol illegal didn't make it go away. making guns illegal won't make them go away. the criminals will still acquire/make them while law abiding citizens would have no defense. do you not understand that?

furthermore, a gun is an inanimate object. guns can't do anything on their own. they are simply tools. guns are not the root cause of the issue at hand, the improper use of guns is merely a symptom. the root cause is the mental / intelligence issues of the individual misusing guns, or whatever weapon they gain access to. attempting to fix issues by addressing symptoms does absolutely nothing to address the root cause. do you not understand that?

what do you actually understand?

That you're a nutter who doesn't understand anything about how the world works.
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EvilMegas posted...

That you're a nutter who doesn't understand anything about how the world works.

address the points i make instead of resorting to ad hominems. that's how discussions / debates work.

show me your logic, your statistics, the breadth of your intellect... if you have any.

hypnoticspector posted...

this just in: criminals don't obey laws, writing more laws won't affect them. shocking stuff. tune in next week at 11 for the next event orchestrated by the CIA/FBI/mossad for which we'll provide you with zero evidence yet adamantly tell you what to think and feel about it.

That's ridiculous.
Gun sales can be easily tracked provided the NRA actually lets us step into the 1990s and use computer technology to do so.

Then why don't home Invaders have swat armor and tanks? Because you can't easily get that shit secretly.

You seem to be against the CIA and FBI though, so even if we could do research to prove this (NRA blocks all research so they can say there's no data supporting a gun ban saves lives) you wouldn't believe it. But that's ok. You don't have to like the law to obey it.

I personally don't like that I have to take my belt and shoes off in an airport but what do you know, some asshole ruined it so now I have to or I can't ride a plane.

they went with heavy gun control in the UK. it's true, gun violence went down... as knife violence skyrocketed up. so they instituted heavy knife control. knife violence went down... as glassing violence skyrocketed.

criminals don't obey the law. what part about that do you not understand? do you think no one can acquire/make a gun illegally?

there are many substances that are illegal on both the federal and state level. you'd think they wouldn't be present with your logic, but guess what! criminals don't obey the law.

criminals do not obey the law. adding more laws will not magically make the stupid people stop doing illegal things. you know why? criminals do not obey the law.

all these alleged mass shootings have 2 things in common - no evidence is ever released, and the alleged perpetrators are on psychoactive pharmaceuticals that are known to cause violent and homicidal behavior. i wonder how many of you anti-gun folk that pop up after these staged events give the slightest damn about what's going on in chicago, baltimore, d.c., st louis, detroit, and similar areas. there's real gun violence going on there all the time, but y'all don't talk about that. probably because chicago already has strict gun control laws and it's a great example of how it doesn't work.

in case you forgot, criminals do not obey the law.

hypnoticspector posted...

i'm actually a proponent of that, it's called anarchy

stopped reading here lmao
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hypnoticspector posted...

EvilMegas posted...

That you're a nutter who doesn't understand anything about how the world works.

address the points i make instead of resorting to ad hominems. that's how discussions / debates work.

show me your logic, your statistics, the breadth of your intellect... if you have any.

If there are no laws, then people would do whatever they want, since there be no consequences for their actions. I could shoot someone, and not have to worry about going to jail or any consequences for my action. What are they going to do, call the police? Oh, wait. No government, so no police.
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hypnoticspector posted...

EvilMegas posted...

That you're a nutter who doesn't understand anything about how the world works.

address the points i make instead of resorting to ad hominems. that's how discussions / debates work.

show me your logic, your statistics, the breadth of your intellect... if you have any.

Okay, i use the same amount of stats, logic and intelligence you did below:

*files not found*
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hypnoticspector posted...

they went with heavy gun control in the UK. it's true, gun violence went down... as knife violence skyrocketed up. so they instituted heavy knife control. knife violence went down... as glassing violence skyrocketed.

criminals don't obey the law. what part about that do you not understand? do you think no one can acquire/make a gun illegally?

there are many substances that are illegal on both the federal and state level. you'd think they wouldn't be present with your logic, but guess what! criminals don't obey the law.

criminals do not obey the law. adding more laws will not magically make the stupid people stop doing illegal things. you know why? criminals do not obey the law.

all these alleged mass shootings have 2 things in common - no evidence is ever released, and the alleged perpetrators are on psychoactive pharmaceuticals that are known to cause violent and homicidal behavior. i wonder how many of you anti-gun folk that pop up after these staged events give the slightest damn about what's going on in chicago, baltimore, d.c., st louis, detroit, and similar areas. there's real gun violence going on there all the time, but y'all don't talk about that. probably because chicago already has strict gun control laws and it's a great example of how it doesn't work.

in case you forgot, criminals do not obey the law.

This doesn't even sound like a problem.
Gun violence went down. Knife violence went up. Who gives a shit? The object wasn't to stop people from being killed, it's to stop people from being killed by guns.
Looks like it worked pretty well.

Also go make a gun yourself while everything is legal and let me know how easy that is.

Jen0125 posted...

stopped reading here lmao

good work, ostrich. thinking must be an arduous task for you.

TyVulpine posted...

If there are no laws, then people would do whatever they want, since there be no consequences for their actions.

the vast majority of people do not commit crimes, not because of laws, but because they are rational, compassionate people. if you don't recognize this, then you've been hanging out with a bunch of stupid, selfish criminals and don't have perspective.

EvilMegas posted...

*files not found*

so you're incapable of addressing any points i made. good work, ostrich.

knivesX2004 posted...

This doesn't even sound like a problem.
Gun violence went down. Knife violence went up. Who gives a shit? The object wasn't to stop people from being killed, it's to stop people from being killed by guns.
Looks like it worked pretty well.

Also go make a gun yourself while everything is legal and let me know how easy that is.

hey now, you're saying the point of removing guns isn't to stop people getting killed? it's like you recognize how murder cannot just be addressed by legislation, but cannot piece together the bigger picture. i know people who are good with machining, construction, and fabrication. it's really not that hard to learn how to do things. it just takes time and effort, things people like you guys aren't willing to put out.

how far are you anti-gun people willing to go? should police have guns? if so, how do you reconcile giving the government a monopoly on the use of force?

how many of you have mothers, sisters, girlfriends, wives, daughters? do you not want them to have the ability to defend themselves using firearms? how many women are you willing to let get raped/murdered/mugged/beaten? that's what happens in areas where they have strong gun control. people cannot defend themselves against criminals who wield guns and knives without weapons of their own.

please tell me how more legislation will address criminal issues when criminals do not obey the law.

hypnoticspector posted...

good work, ostrich. thinking must be an arduous task for you.

there is no thought in what you say.
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hypnoticspector posted...

how many of you have mothers, sisters, girlfriends, wives, daughters? do you not want them to have the ability to defend themselves using firearms? how many women are you willing to let get raped/murdered/mugged/beaten?

lmao wooooow

Some of us are women, and don't feel the need to carry on a daily basis to be safe. Miss me with that bullshit
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RCtheWSBC posted...

hypnoticspector posted...

how many of you have mothers, sisters, girlfriends, wives, daughters? do you not want them to have the ability to defend themselves using firearms? how many women are you willing to let get raped/murdered/mugged/beaten?

lmao wooooow

Some of us are women, and don't feel the need to carry on a daily basis to be safe. Miss me with that bullshit

see? no thought.
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hypnoticspector posted...

i know people who are good with machining, construction, and fabrication. it's really not that hard to learn how to do things. it just takes time and effort, things people like you guys aren't willing to put out.

Yeah well my dad works my Nintendo and he says making games is super easy and anyone could do it.

Lmao just find an artist and a programmer and you're basically done.

hypnoticspector posted...

how many women are you willing to let get raped/murdered/mugged/beaten? that's what happens in areas where they have strong gun control.

No, that's what happens when women join the work environment and go to church.

This may shock you, but I don't live in the middle of a warzone. My houses have never been broken into. Nobody wants to kill me and I can replace every single physical possession I own with ease should I need to.

I'd throw my own mother into a fucking rape fire to save myself idgaf.
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Blighboy posted...

I'd throw my own mother into a fucking rape fire to save myself idgaf.

lmao
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RCtheWSBC posted...

Blighboy posted...

I'd throw my own mother into a fucking rape fire to save myself idgaf.

lmao

lmfaoooo
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Lmao the guy supporting anarchy as an actual way this country could run giving his hot takes like they're relevant
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PuddingBoy posted...

Lmao the guy supporting anarchy as an actual way this country could run giving his hot takes like they're relevant

i never said i supported anarchy for the USA, i said the issue with that is that there are too many stupid and selfish people that would prevent it from working. y'all are proving my point.

i'm a proponent of intelligent, compassionate people who don't need daddy government to tell them what they must and must not do. i don't need a government to tell me not to steal, not to attack others, not to murder, not to destroy property. those are things i don't do, because it's wrong. people with intelligence, common sense, and compassion don't do these things. you posters don't seem to understand that. that tells me that you do not spend time around quality people, and it is likely that you yourselves are not quality people. you do not express american sentiments. america was literally founded on minimal government. our inherent right to bear arms and defend ourselves was acknowledged in the bill of rights so we could protect ourselves from foreign agents and the government itself.

none of you have been addressing any points i make. you seem to lack the capacity to do so, so i'll just continue to post facts, logical statements, and ask relevant questions.

there has been ZERO evidence released of this parkland shooting.
there have been ZERO witnesses who say they saw the dumb ass cruz shoot anyone.
there were military personnel at the school that day for an active shooter drill.
the armed police that were there did absolutely NOTHING to intervene.
the FBI was notified a couple dozen times about this mentally deranged fool, and they did NOTHING.
disarming a populace is the step taken immediately preceding a tyrannical take over.
criminals do not obey the law.

why hasn't the CCTV footage been released?
how could no one have actually seen cruz commit this alleged shooting?
how does no one have video/pics from their phones of this alleged shooter?
why are there always military drills on the same day and the same time as these alleged mass shootings?
why did all those cops do nothing to intervene?
why did the FBI do nothing to intervene?
why can't any of you logically address any of my points, instead choose to mock me?

y'all can't answer because you're willfully ignorant and don't have any principles from which to argue.

hypnoticspector posted...

why hasn't the CCTV footage been released?
how could no one have actually seen cruz commit this alleged shooting?
how does no one have video/pics from their phones of this alleged shooter?

because it happened last week and the police and fbi investigation arent over? this happened last week, you fucking dingus.
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why do you believe the media reports without the slightest bit of evidence? you trust the media 100% no questions asked? why do you believe the media reports when literally no one has said they saw cruz commit the shooting?

the vast majority of crimes i've seen reported in the local/national news that occurred in places with CCTV footage actually show portions of the footage the same night it happens. how can they get and show the evidence of so many events but refuse to show the slightest bit of evidence for this case? how does that make sense? a 5 second feed of someone walking with a gun is all they had to show, yet they are unable to? why?

how do you rectify the military personnel being there for an active shooter drill? just a coincidence? what about all the past events that coincided with drills? just a series of rolling coincidences?

how are you not faulting the FBI for not dealing with cruz?

if you have such anti-american sentiments, why are you still in the USA? are you even in the USA? do you not believe in the inherent right of an individual to bear arms and defend themselves?

hypnoticspector posted...

TyVulpine posted...

If there are no laws, then people would do whatever they want, since there be no consequences for their actions.

the vast majority of people do not commit crimes, not because of laws, but because they are rational, compassionate people. if you don't recognize this, then you've been hanging out with a bunch of stupid, selfish criminals and who dont have perspective.

Ever read Lord of the Flies?
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TyVulpine posted...

Ever read Lord of the Flies?

So you're making assumptions based off a book that was written a long ass time ago that couldn't have possibly predicted what the world would be like today?

That's like using the bible to justify that something should -
Oh wait. Never mind.

knivesX2004 posted...

TyVulpine posted...

Ever read Lord of the Flies?

So you're making assumptions based off a book that was written a long ass time ago that couldn't have possibly predicted what the world would be like today?

That's like using the bible to justify that something should -
Oh wait. Never mind.

I referenced LotF because one side, without laws, decided to ignore morals and compassion, and murdered another boy by dropping a boulder on him.
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TyVulpine posted...

knivesX2004 posted...

TyVulpine posted...

Ever read Lord of the Flies?

So you're making assumptions based off a book that was written a long ass time ago that couldn't have possibly predicted what the world would be like today?

That's like using the bible to justify that something should -
Oh wait. Never mind.

I referenced LotF because one side, without laws, decided to ignore morals and compassion, and murdered another boy by dropping a boulder on him.

How did a boy move an entire boulder?
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Revelation34 posted...

How did a boy move an entire boulder?

In the book they describe it as being after a landslide iirc and he kind of uses a stick/staff to knock it out of place and gravity takes over from there.

Sure we all know that the war on drugs was an utter failure. A big ol' racist failure.

But the war on guns will totally work guys.

People calling for "Mentap Health checks" should know this is racist too. This always affects poor and minority groups first.

I dont know whats more laughable...
The group that believes that this is fake to force harder gun controls, the group that believes this is fake to loosen gun controls, the group that believes that it is actually possible to ban all guns in a gun-loving culture or the group that believes that teachers will turn Rambo and stop school shooters.
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VioletZer0 posted...

Sure we all know that the war on drugs was an utter failure. A big ol' racist failure.

But the war on guns will totally work guys.

People calling for "Mental Health checks" should know this is racist too. This always affects poor and minority groups first.

So because one area of legislation isn't successful we shouldn't have legislation for other things?
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VioletZer0 posted...

Sure we all know that the war on drugs was an utter failure. A big ol' racist failure.

But the war on guns will totally work guys.

People calling for "Mental Health checks" should know this is racist too. This always affects poor and minority groups first.

I bet the you're the kind of person who thinks abortion being legal is racism.
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Jen0125 posted...

VioletZer0 posted...

Sure we all know that the war on drugs was an utter failure. A big ol' racist failure.

But the war on guns will totally work guys.

People calling for "Mental Health checks" should know this is racist too. This always affects poor and minority groups first.

So because one area of legislation isn't successful we shouldn't have legislation for other things?

There is no way we can possibly remove all of the guns from the US.

All this is going to do is monopolize guns in undesirable hands.

VioletZer0 posted...

Jen0125 posted...

VioletZer0 posted...

Sure we all know that the war on drugs was an utter failure. A big ol' racist failure.

But the war on guns will totally work guys.

People calling for "Mental Health checks" should know this is racist too. This always affects poor and minority groups first.

So because one area of legislation isn't successful we shouldn't have legislation for other things?

There is no way we can possibly remove all of the guns from the US.

All this is going to do is monopolize guns in undesirable hands.

No one is asking to remove all of the guns from the US.
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Jen0125 posted...

VioletZer0 posted...

Jen0125 posted...

VioletZer0 posted...

Sure we all know that the war on drugs was an utter failure. A big ol' racist failure.

But the war on guns will totally work guys.

People calling for "Mental Health checks" should know this is racist too. This always affects poor and minority groups first.

So because one area of legislation isn't successful we shouldn't have legislation for other things?

There is no way we can possibly remove all of the guns from the US.

All this is going to do is monopolize guns in undesirable hands.

No one is asking to remove all of the guns from the US.

This. Republicans scream Democrats are coming for your guns!. They are? News to me. Last I heard, Democrats just want to ban military grade assault weapons (that civilians have no valid reason to own) and enact sensible gun laws.
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TyVulpine posted...

Jen0125 posted...

VioletZer0 posted...

Jen0125 posted...

VioletZer0 posted...

Sure we all know that the war on drugs was an utter failure. A big ol' racist failure.

But the war on guns will totally work guys.

People calling for "Mental Health checks" should know this is racist too. This always affects poor and minority groups first.

So because one area of legislation isn't successful we shouldn't have legislation for other things?

There is no way we can possibly remove all of the guns from the US.

All this is going to do is monopolize guns in undesirable hands.

No one is asking to remove all of the guns from the US.

This. Republicans scream Democrats are coming for your guns!. They are? News to me. Last I heard, Democrats just want to ban military grade assault weapons (that civilians have no valid reason to own) and enact sensible gun laws.

For collection is a valid reason but I'm pretty sure the law is you have to destroy the firing pin. Otherwise there's no reason to have anything more than a hunting rifle.
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TyVulpine posted...

Last I heard, Democrats just want to ban military grade assault weapons (that civilians have no valid reason to own) and enact sensible gun laws.

handguns kill WAAAAAY more people though bro

its clear you arent out to save lives, you are out to push an agenda
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Troll_Police_ posted...

its clear you arent out to save lives, you are out to push an agenda

I'd love to hear what the agenda is. I'm sure it's just as real as the gay agenda and other similar conspiracies.
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Troll_Police_ posted...

TyVulpine posted...

Last I heard, Democrats just want to ban military grade assault weapons (that civilians have no valid reason to own) and enact sensible gun laws.

handguns kill WAAAAAY more people though bro

its clear you arent out to save lives, you are out to push an agenda

That's what regulation is for. Anyway give one good reason why a civilian needs an assault weapon.
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Revelation34 posted...

Troll_Police_ posted...

TyVulpine posted...

Last I heard, Democrats just want to ban military grade assault weapons (that civilians have no valid reason to own) and enact sensible gun laws.

handguns kill WAAAAAY more people though bro

its clear you arent out to save lives, you are out to push an agenda

That's what regulation is for. Anyway give one good reason why a civilian needs an assault weapon.

first you tell me why we should ban assault weapons when handguns kill way more people

if your goal is to save lives, and not to infringe upon others freedoms, then explain your justification bro.
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because you can restrict handgun ownership too. not make it completely inaccessible but you could make handguns more difficult to get just by enforcing stricter background checks, allowing a digital database of gun owners, tracking ammo purchases, etc. then you CAN own a handgun but you can only own a handgun if you're deemed competent to own one.
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TyVulpine posted...

Jen0125 posted...

VioletZer0 posted...

Jen0125 posted...

VioletZer0 posted...

Sure we all know that the war on drugs was an utter failure. A big ol' racist failure.

But the war on guns will totally work guys.

People calling for "Mental Health checks" should know this is racist too. This always affects poor and minority groups first.

So because one area of legislation isn't successful we shouldn't have legislation for other things?

There is no way we can possibly remove all of the guns from the US.

All this is going to do is monopolize guns in undesirable hands.

No one is asking to remove all of the guns from the US.

This. Republicans scream Democrats are coming for your guns!. They are? News to me. Last I heard, Democrats just want to ban military grade assault weapons (that civilians have no valid reason to own) and enact sensible gun laws.

What is a "military grade assault weapon" and why specifically do you want it banned?

Revelation34 posted...

Troll_Police_ posted...

TyVulpine posted...

Last I heard, Democrats just want to ban military grade assault weapons (that civilians have no valid reason to own) and enact sensible gun laws.

handguns kill WAAAAAY more people though bro

its clear you arent out to save lives, you are out to push an agenda

That's what regulation is for. Anyway give one good reason why a civilian needs an assault weapon.

Civilians need "assault weapons" the government has them.

The greatest trick the government ever pulled was convincing us we should fear each other more than we should fear them.

Unlike you people tho I actually know what an "assault weapon" is.

An assault weapon is a rifle that uses an intermediate cartridge designed to fight similarly armed enemy combatants at optimal range (about 200-500 meters)

"Assault weapons" are less effective than a handgun for robbing people or causing a shooting.

Jen0125 posted...

because you can restrict handgun ownership too. not make it completely inaccessible but you could make handguns more difficult to get just by enforcing stricter background checks, allowing a digital database of gun owners, tracking ammo purchases, etc. then you CAN own a handgun but you can only own a handgun if you're deemed competent to own one.

first of all, youve already expressed your desire for a blanket gun ban. stop backpedaling.

second of all, why cant you say the same for assault weapons?

also, who the fuck do you think you are to call for a digital database of anything? while we are at it, why dont we just have a digital database of every purchase everyone ever makes? that way big brother can always keep a watchful eye on you and you'll be safe at all times!
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VioletZer0 posted...

TyVulpine posted...

Jen0125 posted...

VioletZer0 posted...

Jen0125 posted...

VioletZer0 posted...

Sure we all know that the war on drugs was an utter failure. A big ol' racist failure.

But the war on guns will totally work guys.

People calling for "Mental Health checks" should know this is racist too. This always affects poor and minority groups first.

So because one area of legislation isn't successful we shouldn't have legislation for other things?

There is no way we can possibly remove all of the guns from the US.

All this is going to do is monopolize guns in undesirable hands.

No one is asking to remove all of the guns from the US.

This. Republicans scream Democrats are coming for your guns!. They are? News to me. Last I heard, Democrats just want to ban military grade assault weapons (that civilians have no valid reason to own) and enact sensible gun laws.

What is a "military grade assault weapon" and why specifically do you want it banned?

i think its obvious, dont you?

he heard CNN say they were bad once
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VioletZer0 posted...

Civilians need "assault weapons" the government has them.

The greatest trick the government ever pulled was convincing us we should fear each other more than we should fear them.

Civilians need tanks, the government has them.
Civilians need predator drones, the government has them.
Civilians need inter-continental ballistic missiles, the government has them.
Civilians need biological weapons, the government has them.
Civilians need nuclear weapons, the government has them.

VioletZer0 posted...
Revelation34 posted...

That's what regulation is for. Anyway give one good reason why a civilian needs an assault weapon.

Unlike you people tho I actually know what an "assault weapon" is.

An assault weapon is a rifle that uses an intermediate cartridge designed to fight similarly armed enemy combatants at optimal range (about 200-500 meters)

"Assault weapons" are less effective than a handgun for robbing people or causing a shooting.

Regardless of whether or not your definition truly captures what an "assault weapon" means, you've only defined its use for a military purpose, fighting similarly armed enemies at long range.
That is not a civilian use. And yet, you and the NRA fight to prevent them from being banned from civilians. Even though you allege they're less useful for mass shootings and cannot identify a single civilian use for them, so banning them shouldn't concern you.
Probably because you and the NRA are full of shit about them being less useful for mass shootings....hmm....