Current Events > parental incarceration increases youth criminality, decreases their employment

(+) Yeah! (+)

http://www.nber.org/papers/w24186

We estimate the causal effect of parental incarceration on childrens medium-run outcomes using administrative data from Sweden. Our empirical strategy exploits exogenous variation in parental incarceration from the random assignment of criminal defendants to judges with different incarceration tendencies. We find that the incarceration of a parent in childhood leads to significant increases in teen crime and pregnancy and a significant decrease in early-life employment. The effects are concentrated among children from the most disadvantaged families, where teen crime increases by 18 percentage points, teen pregnancy increases by 8 percentage points, and employment at age 20 decreases by 28 percentage points. In contrast, there are no detectable effects among children from more advantaged families. These results imply that the incarceration of parents with young children may increase the intergenerational persistence of poverty and criminal behavior, even in affluent countries with extensive social safety nets.

this shouldn't surprise anyone, of course, but maybe it is something to keep in mind when you see someone defending shitty and punitive laws on the basis that the person they're incarcerating 'knew what the risks were' or something stupid like that

and the fact that it is in one of the 'model' countries shows that it is the incarceration itself that is the issue, rather than the loss of income from the loss of a working parent, something that is also a very relevant piece of the puzzle especially here in America
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Isn't this common sense at this point? Single parent, especially single mother, kids are significantly more likely to grow up criminals.
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s0nicfan posted...

Isn't this common sense at this point? Single parent, especially single mother, kids are significantly more likely to grow up criminals.

it's not about that (the effects are true even after the family unit is reunified, and the effect isn't present for more affluent families)

I mean, that is a thing, but it isn't what this study is showing. Let me put it that way
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so judges are to blame. too many judges are just eager to hand down vengeance and don't care who it hurts.

Ending the war on drugs seems like it would solve a few problems. Prisons are overcrowded, it's expensive, and it invites violence south of the border.
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Balrog0 posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Isn't this common sense at this point? Single parent, especially single mother, kids are significantly more likely to grow up criminals.

it's not about that (the effects are true even after the family unit is reunified, and the effect isn't present for more affluent families)

I mean, that is a thing, but it isn't what this study is showing. Let me put it that way

Fair enough. FWIW, I'm a firm believer that decriminalizing a lot of petty drug crimes would go a long way to helping in these communities. That being said, while I agree that "knew the risks" is a bad justification for criminal sentences, there IS a component of personal responsibility and culture that plays into it, and I don't think simply keeping a certain subset of the population out of prison for one crime is really going to fix things without a concentrated effort in those communities to actually take advantage of the windfall of opportunity to change certain behaviors.
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tennisdude818 posted...

Ending the war on drugs seems like it would solve a few problems. Prisons are overcrowded, it's expensive, and it invites violence south of the border.

I agree but also, people just need to stop being criminal scumbags, and also having unplanned kids.
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Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

Ending the war on drugs seems like it would solve a few problems. Prisons are overcrowded, it's expensive, and it invites violence south of the border.

I agree but also, people just need to stop being criminal scumbags, and also having unplanned kids.

True. Ending the welfare state would help there. Fewer single mothers means fewer criminals.
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s0nicfan posted...

Fair enough. FWIW, I'm a firm believer that decriminalizing a lot of petty drug crimes would go a long way to helping in these communities. That being said, while I agree that "knew the risks" is a bad justification for criminal sentences, there IS a component of personal responsibility and culture that plays into it, and I don't think simply keeping a certain subset of the population out of prison for one crime is really going to fix things without a concentrated effort in those communities to actually take advantage of the windfall of opportunity to change certain behaviors.

oh, I definitely agree actually. Fixing the criminal justice system here in America is going to require a whole lot more than just decriminalizing drugs.
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The laws should certainly be better, but there should also be a better culture of responsibility amongst parents to follow the law when they have a kid at home waiting for them
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Kazi1212 posted...

The laws should certainly be better, but there should also be a better culture of responsibility amongst parents to follow the law when they have a kid at home waiting for them

This.
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shockthemonkey posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

Ending the war on drugs seems like it would solve a few problems. Prisons are overcrowded, it's expensive, and it invites violence south of the border.

I agree but also, people just need to stop being criminal scumbags, and also having unplanned kids.

True. Ending the welfare state would help there. Fewer single mothers means fewer criminals.

This seems like a non sequitor

Single motherhood has skyrocketed since LBJ's Great Society. It's not very hard to connect the dots. When the government supposedly removes the consequences of bad behavior, you get more of it (women having unprotected sex with unreliable men). You could probably see the connection if I said that subsidizing the solar power industry leads to more solar power companies, but for some reason people don't like to see the same logic applied to welfare.
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shockthemonkey posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

Ending the war on drugs seems like it would solve a few problems. Prisons are overcrowded, it's expensive, and it invites violence south of the border.

I agree but also, people just need to stop being criminal scumbags, and also having unplanned kids.

True. Ending the welfare state would help there. Fewer single mothers means fewer criminals.

This seems like a non sequitor

Single motherhood has skyrocketed since LBJ's Great Society. It's not very hard to connect the dots. When the government supposedly removes the consequences of bad behavior, you get more of it (women having unprotected sex with unreliable men). You could probably see the connection if I said that subsidizing the solar power industry leads to more solar power companies, but for some reason people don't like to see the same logic applied to welfare.

Still the same non sequitor just took a lot more words

Still the same non argument response but with just a few more words.
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But what about "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime" though? Doesn't that cancel out any other arguments entirely?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uWu0nSsg7w
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I'm pretty sure the change in divorce laws to no-fault divorces has a lot more to do with single motherhood than social assistance programs (what did LBJ supposedly do to make things easier for single moms? The assistance programs that seem most directly related to single moms to me (TANF/AFDC) existed since FDR
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shockthemonkey posted...

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

But what about "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime" though? Doesn't that cancel out any other arguments entirely?

Sure lets just use that rhetoric, no one has tried that before

And reforming laws that lessens the consequences of incarceration isnt rhetoric that people havent tried before? Theres 2 constant rhetorics from both sides in these topics that are always at odds - one of improving a culture of personal responsibility vs. condemning systemic laws for individual outcomes. Weve all heard the rhetoric before, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle
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shockthemonkey posted...

Kazi1212 posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

But what about "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime" though? Doesn't that cancel out any other arguments entirely?

Sure lets just use that rhetoric, no one has tried that before

And reforming laws that lessens the consequences of incarceration isnt rhetoric that people havent tried before? Theres 2 constant rhetorics from both sides in these topics that are always at odds - one of improving a culture of personal responsibility vs. condemning systemic laws for individual outcomes. Weve all heard the rhetoric before, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle

I dont think you understand the difference between rhetoric and policy changes.

We arent doing policy changes, we are talking on a video game message board that has zero consequence in the real world. We are conveying our opinions and trying to persuade people of why we think the way we do, thats it, thats the very definition of rhetoric. I dont think you understand the difference between expressing an opinion on policy and actually making policy changes in the real world
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People who have kids need to stop breaking the fucking law.
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shockthemonkey posted...

*facepalm*

Please enlighten me on what the definition of rhetoric is then, you must have a much better grasp of the english language than I do, I apologize
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shockthemonkey posted...

Kazi1212 posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

*facepalm*

Please enlighten me me what the definition of rhetoric is then, you must have a much better grasp of the enlishblanguage Han I do, I apologize

Im sorry that youre struggling here, theres nothing I can do

You mean you cant help explain to me what rhetoric is and then point out why your post wasnt an example of rhetoric? Gee I realize most of your posts are one liners without substance and ad homniems but please just this once bro
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See that wasnt so hard. Maybe in the future if you more sparingly use the ad hominems and passive aggressive one line posts people wouldnt misconstrue your posts so often and hear you out
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Kazi and shock, I booked a room. It's all paid for. Here is a key for each of you. Check out is tomorrow at 11 am. Enjoy ;)
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