Current Events > He Thought He was One of the Good Guys. Then He Read the Aziz Ansari story..

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/1/24/16925444/aziz-ansari-me-too-feminism-consent

Excerpts:

The verbal and nonverbal cues I ignored

I arrived at Julies house at around 11 pm. We walked upstairs to her bedroom, which was small and cozy, lit by a star-shaped lamp. I looked around. Her mattress was basically the only thing to sit or sleep on. It was clear we would be sharing the bed. My face flushed, and my heart beat faster. I took this as a sign that a hookup would happen.

I lay in bed with Julie, her head resting comfortably on my chest, and we talked about this and that. We were dozing off a bit when we both turned on our sides to face each other. I could see her eyes were closed, but I sensed she was still awake. I touched my forehead to hers. She brought her mouth to mine, and we kissed.

As we were making out, we couldnt find our rhythm. It felt like either her mouth was too small for mine or my mouth was too big. It seemed like she didnt want to open hers all the way. I kept finding her teeth with my tongue, or going in for a mouth-half-open kiss, only to land on her pursed-shut lips. In the moment, I blamed first-hookup awkwardness.

I moved my hands under her shirt, pulled her close, grabbed her ass, and hoisted her above me so she could straddle my waist. It seemed sexy. She was still kissing me. I took off her shirt and bra.

At some point, I went down on her. I dont remember any verbal cues to stop, but what I do remember is a significant nonverbal cue: She wasnt making any sound. No moans, no breaths, no words. She seemed stiff. But I kept going because, well, I thought that oral sex was something people typically enjoyed. I worried I wasnt doing it right, so I tried different spots and techniques, but nothing changed.

After some time, which I now realize was far too long, I stopped and asked if she was okay. She hesitated before speaking, and sat up. I dont think we should have sex. Were friends, and I think having sex will make things complicated.

I responded almost immediately. I dont think it will make things complicated. Im totally fine with figuring that out later. I kind of laughed, I think, because I thought I was being charming. My feelings at the time were: Were in the middle of having sex. Its already complicated. Stopping now doesnt make it less complicated. I was also horny, and Julie was hot, so I disregarded her feelings; I lurched toward her and starting kissing her neck.

Are you sure you want to stop? I whispered in her ear as I moved my hand toward her crotch.
I just dont think we should, because were friends.

She never physically stopped me from touching her. At the time, I took that as a sign that she actually wanted me to continue. Her verbal objections, I convinced myself, were her poetic way of telling me she liked me enough to want to be in a relationship with me.

She was telling me to stop. And I didnt. At least not at first. Instead, I continued to touch her clitoris, kiss her neck, and take off my underwear. She continued to say nothing and do nothing, and she was still stiff. I rubbed my penis across the outside of her vagina. She was wet. I convinced myself that this was further evidence that she wanted it.

I positioned myself for penetration but paused right before pushing inside her. At that point, things kind of snapped together for me. She didnt want this maybe she hadnt pushed my hand away, but she had verbalized not feeling comfortable doing it. So I stopped.

It took me years to realize that even though I stopped, Id still violated her.

Please click on link to follow the rest of the story ..
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It's easy really

DO:
- be a mindreader

DON'T:
- not be a mindreader
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"He thought he was one of the good guys, until he was brainwashed by liberal stupidity into thinking he was wrong because someone else wasn't mature enough to be having sex"
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women are fragile creatures and if you can't interpret their mysterious ways correctly then you don't deserve to be intimate with them
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Jesus its not difficult.

If she's not right into it, she's NOT INTO IT.

How hard is this to figure out? You went down on a chick and she was rigid and quiet the entire time? And this was normal? What in the hell....
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Tupacrulez posted...

Jesus its not difficult.

If she's not right into it, she's NOT INTO IT.

How hard is this to figure out? You went down on a chick and she was rigid and quiet the entire time? And this was normal? What in the hell....

Well hookups have the tendency to be kinda awkward. I know I've been in the position of doing awkward stuff that can be interpreted as a "nonverbal cue", but I would have been more upset if they stopped because of it.

Tupacrulez posted...

Jesus its not difficult.

If she's not right into it, she's NOT INTO IT.

How hard is this to figure out? You went down on a chick and she was rigid and quiet the entire time? And this was normal? What in the hell....

You've never had sex with a quiet woman?

That's sad.
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leverageblargh posted...

Tupacrulez posted...

Jesus its not difficult.

If she's not right into it, she's NOT INTO IT.

How hard is this to figure out? You went down on a chick and she was rigid and quiet the entire time? And this was normal? What in the hell....

But don't you see? She should have screamed and run out of the house to effectively convey that she didn't want to bang him! Otherwise beta alpha chad dick limitless LIBERALS.

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Barenziah Boy Toy posted...

I lay in bed with Julie, her head resting comfortably on my chest

Why would friends sleep together like this?

Pretty sure not even two straight female friends would lie in bed with ones head resting on the other's chest...

Not even brother and sister...

Sure, she didn't want sex, but she should realize what she is enticing of her friend.
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pinky0926 posted...

It's easy really

DO:
- be a mindreader

DON'T:
- not be a mindreader

To be fair here, she literally said she didn't want it and he continued. No need to read any minds.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Tupacrulez posted...

Jesus its not difficult.

If she's not right into it, she's NOT INTO IT.

How hard is this to figure out? You went down on a chick and she was rigid and quiet the entire time? And this was normal? What in the hell....

You've never had sex with a quiet woman?

That's sad.

And the rigid part?
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COVxy posted...

pinky0926 posted...

It's easy really

DO:
- be a mindreader

DON'T:
- not be a mindreader

To be fair here, she literally said she didn't want it an he continued. No need to read any minds.

And stayed anyway and sucked his dick.
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joestarrr posted...

leverageblargh posted...

Tupacrulez posted...

Jesus its not difficult.

If she's not right into it, she's NOT INTO IT.

How hard is this to figure out? You went down on a chick and she was rigid and quiet the entire time? And this was normal? What in the hell....

But don't you see? She should have screamed and run out of the house to effectively convey that she didn't want to bang him! Otherwise beta alpha chad dick limitless LIBERALS.

Or you know, just said "Sorry, no I don't want this", and after that it's 100% on the man to stop. I understand that these things are hard, but consider how often you misinterpret subtle cues in everyday life - why do we expect people to understand really passive gestures in sexual circumstances so fluently?
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darkphoenix181 posted...

Why would friends sleep together like this?

You DO realize that people can change their minds about their relationship DURING sex or foreplay, right?

And yes, I have been in relationships with platonic (or ppl that are attracted to each other, but agree not to have sex) friends where she rested her head on my chest, AND vice versa.
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dave_is_slick posted...

And stayed anyway and sucked his dick.

I get that it's hard for you to not perseverate, but this topic isn't about the Aziz Ansari story.
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COVxy posted...

pinky0926 posted...

It's easy really

DO:
- be a mindreader

DON'T:
- not be a mindreader

To be fair here, she literally said she didn't want it an he continued. No need to read any minds.

Alright and that's fair, but this brings up a greater problem and it's not simply the guilt of a person who wanted to be a rapist or anything so clear cut.

Because a line like "I don't think we should, because we're friends" is going to sound like "I want to but it might be inappropriate according to social conventions" to anyone who's 1) hopeful and 2) not that experienced.
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COVxy posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

And stayed anyway and sucked his dick.

I get that it's hard for you to not perseverate, but this topic isn't about the Aziz Ansari story.

Easy mistake to make.
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dave_is_slick posted...

Easy mistake to make.

Not if you read the OP.
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pinky0926 posted...

Alright and that's fair, but this brings up a greater problem and it's not simply the guilt of a person who wanted to be a rapist or anything so clear cut.

Nothing has been framed as simple and clear cut in these recent cases. It's been framed as a nuanced discussion about consent. People on the right made it sound like the goal was to demonize with a clear cut sentence, and people on the left dropped it like a hot potato, not wanting the discussion about sexual assault and harassment to be labeled with this type of strawman. The issue is that people haven't been honestly trying to think for themselves here.
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COVxy posted...

pinky0926 posted...

Alright and that's fair, but this brings up a greater problem and it's not simply the guilt of a person who wanted to be a rapist or anything so clear cut.

Nothing has been framed as simple and clear cut in these recent cases. It's been framed as a nuanced discussion about consent. People on the right made it sound like the goal was to demonize with a clear cut sentence, and people on the left dropped it like a hot potato, not wanting the discussion about sexual assault and harassment to be labeled with this type of strawman. The issue is that people haven't been honestly trying to think for themselves here.

What's the outcome though? I think it's difficult to have nuanced discussions when the terms you define it by are not really nuanced at all. You're a rapist or someone who committed sexual assault in cases like this. There's not exactly a points system where you only get a few points for being less of a sexual assaultist.

I'm not trying to be facetious, just pointing out why this conversation is difficult on the outset.
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The outcome is the same as all conversations about moralistic behavior.

If we're discussing the morals of stealing a piece of bread to feed your starving family, the goal isn't to label someone a thief, is it?
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COVxy posted...

If we're discussing the morals of stealing a piece of bread to feed your starving family, the goal isn't to label someone a thief, is it?

So what was the underlying motivation behind the behavior of this almost-rapist in this case?
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The goal of discussing this is to understand the underlying issues regarding consent and behavior currently waved off as completely okay. It's clear to me that people simply haven't thought very deeply about it.

You don't have to criminalize a behavior in order to say "that's not okay".

Like, it's not criminal for me to hang up on someone in the middle of the conversation because I didn't get my way, but we can all agree that it's a rude behavior, no? Why does this conversation have to be so hard, other than your own insecurities?
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COVxy posted...

The goal of discussing this is to understand the underlying issues regarding consent and behavior currently waved off as completely okay. It's clear to me that people simply haven't thought very deeply about it.

You don't have to criminalize a behavior in order to say "that's not okay".

Like, it's not criminal for me to hang up on someone in the middle of the conversation because I didn't get my way, but we can all agree that it's a rude behavior, no? Why does this conversation have to be so hard, other than your own insecurities?

Well since people like you just love to blame other people for not being as enlightened and don't really want to talk but just tell them they're wrong, is it any wonder why it's "hard"?
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dave_is_slick posted...

Well since people like you just love to blame other people for not being as enlightened and don't really want to talk but just tell them they're wrong, is it any wonder why it's "hard"?

Don't know why you're attributing this to me, when I've been pretty open about discussion about the topic.
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gunplagirl posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

Tupacrulez posted...

Jesus its not difficult.

If she's not right into it, she's NOT INTO IT.

How hard is this to figure out? You went down on a chick and she was rigid and quiet the entire time? And this was normal? What in the hell....

You've never had sex with a quiet woman?

That's sad.

And the rigid part?

And he was never seen again.

It's not that difficult to read body language especially when it's accompanied by a verbal cue such as she gave him. People can claim they interpreted it to mean she wanted to be in a relationship, or that it's a classic awkward hookup scenario, but if you're actually interested in consentual sex you would be losing interest the moment she got rigid.
---

Went through the same thing with a girl

We kissed
Kissed her neck, start feeling her up and feeling her boobs. Kissed down her body, started unbuttoning her pants and asked can I?

She said not right now.

We stopped right there and just laid there for a few. Then she went home.

We still texted after that but it fizzled. I felt like I went too far kissing her boobs and going down but at the same time, I did stop when she said stop
---

Probably quite a few female vox readers got turned on reading this.
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gna647 posted...

Went through the same thing with a girl

We kissed
Kissed her neck, start feeling her up and feeling her boobs. Kissed down her body, started unbuttoning her pants and asked can I?

She said not right now.

We stopped right there and just laid there for a few. Then she went home.

We still texted after that but it fizzled. I felt like I went too far kissing her boobs and going down but at the same time, I did stop when she said stop

There's nothing wrong with this, it's not really the same because of the bolded.

That's all that's really important.
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"I don't think we should have sex" is definitely a verbal cue lol
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Smashingpmkns posted...

"I don't think we should have sex" is definitely a verbal cue lol

This
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gna647 posted...

Smashingpmkns posted...

"I don't think we should have sex" is definitely a verbal cue lol

This

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We should chemically castrate all men so they won't be a threat to women

Imagine being so afraid of your own sexuality as a man that you read the Aziz Ansari story and feel that Aziz Ansari was wrong.
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All this is a consequence of the hook-up culture that exists now. Men need to be cautious of a woman with judgement poor enough to fuck him within hours of meeting him because she might have mental issues and cry fowl for not properly reading her non-verbal cues. And women need to be cautious of hooking up with men they don't know because they actually may be a rapist. They say, we're just having fun. Well, this is what can come from that.
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Reads like a virgins first time having intercourse.
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Each one of these topics is a testimony to how much men are reluctant to talk about the nuances of consent.
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Barenziah Boy Toy posted...

You DO realize that people can change their minds about their relationship DURING sex or foreplay, right?

I agree. Doesn't that muddy the waters further rather than clarify things, though? Men know that women can change their mind about consent, which is why verbal and nonverbal cues that signal they lack a desire to fuck you aren't taken as a definite 'no'

I mean, if a definite yes can turn into a definite no, the opposite can also happen right?
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COVxy posted...

Each one of these topics is a testimony to how much men are reluctant to talk about the nuances of consent.

And women are just reluctant to talk about expectations, period.
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Balrog0 posted...

I mean, if a definite yes can turn into a definite no, the opposite can also happen right?

Uh oh you've gone and done it now!
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Balrog0 posted...

I mean, if a definite yes can turn into a definite no, the opposite can also happen right?

So it's best to play it safe, don't you think? Why is penetration the endgoal of a sexual experience - even at the risk of raping someone?
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Girls you need to speak the fuck up.
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NurseRedHeart posted...

Girls you need to speak the fuck up.

Girls who speak up often get attacked for being cockteases and bitches.
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darkjedilink posted...

And women are just reluctant to talk about expectations, period.

NurseRedHeart posted...

Girls you need to speak the fuck up.

But, I mean, you guys read this case, right?
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Barenziah Boy Toy posted...

So it's best to play it safe, don't you think? Why is penetration the endgoal of a sexual experience - even at the risk of raping someone?

I didnt' say it was, just pointing out that men implicitly understand the idea that women can change their consent, at least when they are doing these things.

From my perspective, that is the whole point of what they are trying to do. I am sure there is a lot of self-serving thinking going on to justify it, too, but these instances aren't a case of men trying to bone someone regardless of what they want
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In the middle of sex:
I dont think we should be having sex, were friends

=

Stop, youre raping me

Check your privilege
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darkjedilink posted...

Imagine being so afraid of your own sexuality as a man that you read the Aziz Ansari story and feel that Aziz Ansari was wrong.

You're trying too hard
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clearaflagrantj posted...

We should chemically castrate all men so they won't be a threat to women

You can go first if you like.
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