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not__shawn__z 01/10/18 7:18:05 PM #102: |
So my issue is this
ilfait posted... "that transgendered person is a person; an individual with strengths and failings, and thoughts and feelings unique to him or her as a person." That is already how I feel. But at the same time, when it comes down to it, such as a question like this, they are still the gender they were born as. Nothing can ever change that I feel like a lot of people tend to misconstrue the majority's argument, thinking that we are calling for the heads of transgenders or trying to outlaw it. This is America, you can do whatever the fuck you want. You want to get surgeries and claim you're a man or a woman or a dragon like the one in game of thrones? Go for it. It's the attempted normalization of it when there is a 40% suicide rate attached to it (and a very high regret rate) as well as people arguing that you are a shitbag (like that one guy in this topic, shockthemonkey I think it was) if you feel otherwise, that is where the issues are ... Copied to Clipboard!
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KINDERFELD 01/10/18 7:18:10 PM #103: |
TC I'll first need your definition of what a "real woman" is. If you mean real as in biologically born a woman, then no.
--- the polyfilla way look strong in the weakness of the gaps ... Copied to Clipboard!
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#104 | Post #104 was unavailable or deleted. |
a_riot04 01/10/18 7:19:34 PM #105: |
Dudes a dude in my eyes, inverted penis or regular one. IDGAF what they do or say, long as no one's getting hurt.
--- Reinforcements? I am THE reinforcements. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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GreatEvilEmpire 01/10/18 7:20:31 PM #106: |
If Donald Trump chop off his penis, start taking hormones and identify as a woman, would you consider him to be the first female president?
--- Sig under construction! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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KINDERFELD 01/10/18 7:20:59 PM #107: |
GreatEvilEmpire posted...
If Donald Trump chop off his penis, start taking hormones and identify as a woman, would you consider him to be the first female president? --- the polyfilla way look strong in the weakness of the gaps ... Copied to Clipboard!
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not__shawn__z 01/10/18 7:21:44 PM #108: |
GreatEvilEmpire posted...
If Donald Trump chop off his penis, start taking hormones and identify as a woman, would you consider him to be the first female president? Obviously an hyperbolic example but that's the road the yes people are going down by making that argument, yea Edit- you don't even need to do the surgery or take hormones. The yes people usually don't argue that, just that if you "feel" like the opposite sex, you are. This poll also indicates that as well, only a small percentage picked the yes only with surgery option ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Capn Circus 01/10/18 7:21:48 PM #109: |
GreatEvilEmpire posted...
If Donald Trump chop off his penis, start taking hormones and identify as a woman, would you consider him to be the first female president? That would be a big headache for the left. --- "I think that man will be president right about the time when spaceships come down filled with dinosaurs in red capes" - Tom Hanks ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Squall28 01/10/18 7:23:49 PM #110: |
GreatEvilEmpire posted...
If Donald Trump chop off his penis, start taking hormones and identify as a woman, would you consider him to be the first female president? Better yet, what if Trump doesn't chop off his penis or take hormones. He just says he's female. --- If you're going through hell, keep going. -Winston Churchill ... Copied to Clipboard!
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KINDERFELD 01/10/18 7:26:03 PM #111: |
Squall28 posted...
GreatEvilEmpire posted...If Donald Trump chop off his penis, start taking hormones and identify as a woman, would you consider him to be the first female president? I'd quicker believe if he said he was a shit-head. --- the polyfilla way look strong in the weakness of the gaps ... Copied to Clipboard!
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GreatEvilEmpire 01/10/18 7:27:20 PM #112: |
Squall28 posted...
GreatEvilEmpire posted...If Donald Trump chop off his penis, start taking hormones and identify as a woman, would you consider him to be the first female president? It would be the funniest thing next to him winning the election. --- Sig under construction! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Funkydog 01/10/18 7:28:14 PM #113: |
GreatEvilEmpire posted...
If Donald Trump chop off his penis, start taking hormones and identify as a woman, would you consider him to be the first female president? If he was genuine and not trolling, sure. Might think he is an awful person, but doesn't change if he is trans or not. Same with Caitlyn Jenner and Sayoria. --- ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ilfait 01/10/18 7:32:16 PM #114: |
not__shawn__z posted...
So my issue is this It's how I already feel as well, and it's possible that even the majority of people (in North America at least) feel that way; I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the perception so often portrayed by news outlets etc. is a skewed one. But it also doesn't take a majority for a person or group to be unjustly treated. What I'm saying is that I hope that gradually people will become even better at considering other people as individuals, and I think it's inevitable that this will eventually happen through positive exposure to visibly different "types" of people. I also agree with you that it's dangerous to prioritize the normalization of dangerous behaviour in a way that obfuscates the dangers from susceptible people. And gender transitioning does seem dangerous, from what I know and suspect, and should ideally be undertaken by people who fully understand the risks. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Hexenherz 01/10/18 7:41:22 PM #115: |
Squall28 posted...
GreatEvilEmpire posted...If Donald Trump chop off his penis, start taking hormones and identify as a woman, would you consider him to be the first female president? I mean that worked with his transition from being a Democrat to the Republican party... --- i dont like signatures ... Copied to Clipboard!
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NOM 01/10/18 7:42:12 PM #116: |
Real people, sure. Real women? No.
--- I dream broken dreams I make them come true ... Copied to Clipboard!
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not__shawn__z 01/10/18 7:44:16 PM #117: |
Hexenherz posted...
Squall28 posted...GreatEvilEmpire posted...If Donald Trump chop off his penis, start taking hormones and identify as a woman, would you consider him to be the first female president? I always found it funny that people try to use this disparagingly. I find it the opposite; I think it's a bad thing if you have voted blindly democrat or republican your whole life ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Kaname_Madoka 01/10/18 7:44:53 PM #118: |
trans women are women
trans men are men --- Drawn for me: Volkswagen_Bros, ShinobiNinjaX, Popcorn_Fairy + Nayr626. https://imgur.com/gallery/B4o8m League Summoner Name: DontIoseYourWay (the I is an i) ... Copied to Clipboard!
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GiftedACIII 01/10/18 7:45:49 PM #119: |
ilfait posted...
GiftedACIII posted... If we wanted to be scientifically accurate as possible then yes, we should take brain structure into account when we determine gender. Of course, it's "unfeasible" as you say, but it's also unfeasible (and why we don't actually do it) to brain scan someone everytime a professional diagnoses someone with autism or depression. But if you are for that, then unless you're inconsistent, then you'd be for using brain structure to determine the true gender too. And about the dog thing, then it's simple as well. A transgender person is an opposite sex brain in the body of the opposite sex. A lot of people here just seem uninformed of how transgenderism works. Studies have shown consistent transgender individuals have been that way since a very young age. Trump hasn't expressed anything about being female or having gender dysphasia in his entire life so it's 99% likely that if he suddenly just brought it up he's bullshitting. Don't forget that trained professionals also officially confirm if someone is truly transgender or not because they give hormones, sex surgery etc. --- </topic> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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not__shawn__z 01/10/18 7:47:57 PM #120: |
GiftedACIII posted...
Trump hasn't expressed anything about being female or having gender dysphasia in his entire life so it's 99% likely that if he suddenly just brought it up he's bulls***ting. Don't forget that trained professionals also officially confirm if someone is truly transgender or not because they give hormones, sex surgery etc. But using the people who are voting yes' own logic. And I don't actually mean this at all so please don't take offense to it, lol, but this would be the response- you're a bigot. Of course he wasn't open about it. It's hard to be open about it. Who are you to tell him how he really feels? Additionally as noted by this poll, most people think surgeries and hormones are irrelevant ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Squall28 01/10/18 7:49:57 PM #121: |
GiftedACIII posted...
If we wanted to be scientifically accurate as possible then yes, we should take brain structure into account when we determine gender. Reproduction has always been the core of what sex is about, and sex is what most people think about in regards to being a man or woman. --- If you're going through hell, keep going. -Winston Churchill ... Copied to Clipboard!
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GiftedACIII 01/10/18 7:56:25 PM #122: |
not__shawn__z posted...
GiftedACIII posted...Trump hasn't expressed anything about being female or having gender dysphasia in his entire life so it's 99% likely that if he suddenly just brought it up he's bulls***ting. Don't forget that trained professionals also officially confirm if someone is truly transgender or not because they give hormones, sex surgery etc. Yeah, I despise leftist extremists. Unlike them I don't go by emotion and feelings, I go by science and logic. If the brain scan shows they're not what they say they are, then they're wrong. I definitely do believe there are plenty of "trans" people who aren't legitimate and are just using it for various reasons; attention, reputation, going through a phase etc. This is why I actually don't believe Jenners is genuine. He's made many remarks that imply he's just doing it for attention and doesn't truly have felt he's been a women since his earliest childhood memories. --- </topic> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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GiftedACIII 01/10/18 8:04:37 PM #123: |
Squall28 posted...
GiftedACIII posted...If we wanted to be scientifically accurate as possible then yes, we should take brain structure into account when we determine gender. Not really. In fiction, when people get their brains changed around, people always refer to the brain as their name and gender, not whatever the switched body is. In real life, there are many intersex individuals who have all kinds of abnormal aspects. There are xx chromosome penises, there are people whose genitalia changes there are people with no visible genitalia. It's pretty ignorant to just go by the surface and broad definition. Not to mention some people just can't reproduce period. --- </topic> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ilfait 01/10/18 8:15:16 PM #124: |
GiftedACIII posted...
not__shawn__z posted...GiftedACIII posted...Trump hasn't expressed anything about being female or having gender dysphasia in his entire life so it's 99% likely that if he suddenly just brought it up he's bulls***ting. Don't forget that trained professionals also officially confirm if someone is truly transgender or not because they give hormones, sex surgery etc. Let's say that about half of humanity has one of two possible types of brain structures: type A and type B; type A is almost always found in people with a vagina, and type B is almost always found in people with a penis. If someone who was born with a vagina, has the organs associated with giving birth, and has a hormonal balance and musculature roughly in line with other people who have the same organs; but the brain scan shows a type B structure (the type usually associated with people who have a penis), then how should that person's gender be classified? Should every other aspect be ignored in favour of the structure of the brain? If that were the case, to me it seems like the only steps that make sense would be to do something like add two new classifications, or to say that it's possible for either a male or female to have a "type A"-like or "type B"-like brain structure. Not that I think scientific classification in this case is all that important anyway. Socially I don't think it matters much. And scientifically it's what we learn about the nature of people that's important; not so much how we name things. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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GiftedACIII 01/10/18 8:22:44 PM #125: |
ilfait posted...
GiftedACIII posted...not__shawn__z posted...GiftedACIII posted...Trump hasn't expressed anything about being female or having gender dysphasia in his entire life so it's 99% likely that if he suddenly just brought it up he's bulls***ting. Don't forget that trained professionals also officially confirm if someone is truly transgender or not because they give hormones, sex surgery etc. Their body is female, their brain is male. "Who" a person is, their personality, their consciousness is the brain. So as an individual they're male. Is that not logical? The current system doesn't have a means to classify this type of stuff yet but that doesn't mean it's accurate. I mean, intersex people as a whole pretty much break the classification system as do other anomalies like conjoined individuals. The classification system is for general and broad purposes. And as you said, it could always change to be more accurate, perhaps pointing out there's a difference between the brain and the rest of the body. --- </topic> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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SuperNamekGod 01/10/18 8:26:59 PM #126: |
They deserve their rights and to be called a she.
But they really aren't the same as actual women. --- Questlove, you not in the house. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ilfait 01/10/18 8:31:49 PM #127: |
GiftedACIII posted...
ilfait posted...GiftedACIII posted...not__shawn__z posted...GiftedACIII posted...Trump hasn't expressed anything about being female or having gender dysphasia in his entire life so it's 99% likely that if he suddenly just brought it up he's bulls***ting. Don't forget that trained professionals also officially confirm if someone is truly transgender or not because they give hormones, sex surgery etc. I mostly agree with you, though to say that the body is female and the brain is male isn't the only reasonable option. You could also say that females can have a brain structure more like one that's usually found in males. You could also say that when someone with a female body has a brain structure that's commonly male, then that person is something different--a gender with a different name. You could say that a person born with a female body and a "male brain" is a male, but I think that makes less sense. It's not that who you are is less important than what you are metaphysically; who you are is far more important. But in scientific gender classification, I think that "what you are" is more important. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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#128 | Post #128 was unavailable or deleted. |
SuperNamekGod 01/10/18 8:38:11 PM #129: |
Conflict posted...
Vindris_SNH posted...hey guys *poke* in most cases; usually. "the quality of work is typically very high" with the distinctive qualities of a particular type of person or thing. adverb: typically "typically masculine social roles" in a way that is characteristic of a particular person or thing. --- Questlove, you not in the house. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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MutantJohn 01/10/18 8:38:20 PM #130: |
I keep hearing about gendered brains but am left wondering why they're mentioned if they're not used to imply something.
--- "Oh, my mother; oh, my friends, ask the angels, will I ever see heaven again?" - Laura Marling ... Copied to Clipboard!
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GiftedACIII 01/10/18 8:39:49 PM #131: |
ilfait posted...
GiftedACIII posted...ilfait posted...GiftedACIII posted...not__shawn__z posted... Very true. tbh, there is still a lot about the field of neurology that needs to be discovered so I guess we really can't say for certain until more information and research is carried out. We'll likely get the best handle of it if and when things like brain transplants start becoming possible (which probably won't happen in our lifetime but with the technological booms we've seen the past century who knows) so it's best for all of us to keep a more open mind until then. --- </topic> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ilfait 01/10/18 8:40:47 PM #132: |
MutantJohn posted...
I keep hearing about gendered brains but am left wondering why they're mentioned if they're not used to imply something. Related to this, I don't mean to imply that gendered brains do exist. I've seen conflicting studies, and both are fairly new, but I'm arguing with GiftedACIII based on the supposition that brains are clearly gendered. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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GiftedACIII 01/10/18 9:00:26 PM #133: |
ilfait posted...
MutantJohn posted...I keep hearing about gendered brains but am left wondering why they're mentioned if they're not used to imply something. MutantJohn is one of those people that put sociology and feelings over everything else. The reason he's so averse to it is because the results "might lead to sexism". He even once said biology is a quack science. He still believes in transpeople though... but because it only matters how they feel. --- </topic> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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MutantJohn 01/10/18 9:02:21 PM #134: |
ilfait posted...
MutantJohn posted...I keep hearing about gendered brains but am left wondering why they're mentioned if they're not used to imply something. I'm just curious about terms and definitions. It's fine to use the terms "male brain" and "female brain" but I'm more curious how these are purported to manifest in terms of behavior. It's one thing to find a cause for sexual dysphoria and another to create wild assertions about human behavior. --- "Oh, my mother; oh, my friends, ask the angels, will I ever see heaven again?" - Laura Marling ... Copied to Clipboard!
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MutantJohn 01/10/18 9:02:50 PM #135: |
GiftedACIII posted...
ilfait posted...MutantJohn posted...I keep hearing about gendered brains but am left wondering why they're mentioned if they're not used to imply something. Aw, c'mon; that's the old MutantJohn. Older and wiser MutantJohn is chill, man. --- "Oh, my mother; oh, my friends, ask the angels, will I ever see heaven again?" - Laura Marling ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Offworlder1 01/10/18 9:13:50 PM #136: |
Transwomen are not actual women they are men trying to be women.
--- "Always two there are, a master and an apprentice" ... Copied to Clipboard!
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kinetika_ 01/10/18 9:19:45 PM #137: |
I'm a transgender and even I voted "No". The whole reason I don't do the surgery is because I know that it would never truly give me the physical female body that I desire, and I don't want to mutilate myself for a half-assed attempt. Most of the trans that I know/am friends with feel the same way as I do, so this isn't a unique mindset restricted to me.
I project my true self in digital worlds, and though, at times, it's not sufficient enough for me, I deal with it and I've come to accept my condition and move on with my life. If it ever were possible in my life time (very unlikely) to perfectly transition into a physical female, then I'd go through with it... but we're too limited and I didn't fully understand my feelings when I was younger to take advantage of hormone therapy. Plus, in the 90's, it just wasn't a thing so I thought what I felt was absurd and kept it to myself (still do even now, honestly). --- PSN: PurifyNothing ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ilfait 01/10/18 9:30:13 PM #138: |
MutantJohn posted...
ilfait posted...MutantJohn posted...I keep hearing about gendered brains but am left wondering why they're mentioned if they're not used to imply something. According to the study that GiftedACIII linked earlier: "Adjusting for age, on average, they found that women tended to have significantly thicker cortices than men. Thicker cortices have been associated with higher scores on a variety of cognitive and general intelligence tests. Meanwhile, men had higher brain volumes than women in every subcortical region they looked at, including the hippocampus (which plays broad roles in memory and spatial awareness), the amygdala (emotions, memory, and decision-making), striatum (learning, inhibition, and reward-processing), and thalamus (processing and relaying sensory information to other parts of the brain)." I assume that visible structural differences would at least to some extent correlate to typical differences in male/female behaviours, like their approaches to relationships, play, social tendencies, etc. But I think one thing that may make the brain a poor criteria for gender classification is that unlike the definite difference in an aspect of biology like, to have or not have ovaries, it relies too much on tendencies, probabilities, averages. From the same study: "Despite the studys consistent sex-linked patterns, the researchers also found considerable overlap between men and women in brain volume and cortical thickness, just as you might find in height. In other words, just by looking at the brain scan, or height, of someone plucked at random from the study, researchers would be hard pressed to say whether it came from a man or woman." ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ilfait 01/10/18 9:43:25 PM #139: |
kinetika_ posted...
I'm a transgender and even I voted "No". The whole reason I don't do the surgery is because I know that it would never truly give me the physical female body that I desire, and I don't want to mutilate myself for a half-assed attempt. Most of the trans that I know/am friends with feel the same way as I do, so this isn't a unique mindset restricted to me. Do you think that your body not reflecting your true self has anything to do with our traditional perceptions of what a male and a female is "supposed" to be? What I mean is, if being transgender were traditionally seen as just another uncommon but natural way of being--something like the fact that most of the time if you have blue eyes, you have light skin, but sometimes a dark-skinned person will also have blue eyes--instead of a mistake, or a mix-up, is it possible that your true self might then be who you currently are, both in body and mind? Or do you think that no matter what common perception is and was, that you'd still feel as though you were born with the "wrong" parts? And do you suspect the way you feel about it is somewhat universal, or personal? If this is too personal to talk about, feel free to ignore it. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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countzander 01/10/18 10:31:04 PM #140: |
... Copied to Clipboard!
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SuperNamekGod 01/10/18 10:33:04 PM #141: |
countzander posted...
There are no chicks with dicks just guys with tits. lmao --- Questlove, you not in the house. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Dragonblade01 01/10/18 10:39:45 PM #142: |
How are we defining "real women"?
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ilfait 01/10/18 10:41:39 PM #143: |
For the purposes of the poll, you have to define it.
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SuperNamekGod 01/10/18 10:41:55 PM #144: |
Dragonblade01 posted...
How are we defining "real women"? of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes. "a herd of female deer" relating to or characteristic of women or female animals. "a female audience" synonyms:feminine, womanly, ladylike "female attributes" A lot of people ignore the first one. --- Questlove, you not in the house. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Dragonblade01 01/10/18 10:45:24 PM #145: |
ilfait posted...
For the purposes of the poll, you have to define it. Then the poll is worthless. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ilfait 01/10/18 10:47:46 PM #146: |
Dragonblade01 posted...
ilfait posted...For the purposes of the poll, you have to define it. It's the only way that the poll has a point. If everyone were forced to go by the "of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes. "a herd of female deer" definition, then what would be the purpose of a poll? Then it's an exercise in "click this one button". ... Copied to Clipboard!
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not__shawn__z 01/10/18 10:50:09 PM #147: |
not__shawn__z posted...
KazumaKiryu posted...not__shawn__z posted...Waluigi7 posted...You're right, it isn't inherently disrespectful. @Waluigi7 not sure where ya went ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Dragonblade01 01/10/18 11:27:59 PM #148: |
ilfait posted...
Dragonblade01 posted...ilfait posted...For the purposes of the poll, you have to define it. What's the point of a poll if nobody agrees on the terms? ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ilfait 01/10/18 11:34:08 PM #149: |
Dragonblade01 posted...
ilfait posted...Dragonblade01 posted...ilfait posted...For the purposes of the poll, you have to define it. I can't speak for the TC, but I imagine the purpose of this poll is to find out how people perceive trans women. If you don't think there's any room for subjective interpretation of what a woman is, then click the option that matches your viewpoint and discuss it in the thread if you feel like it. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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not__shawn__z 01/10/18 11:57:17 PM #150: |
I mean honestly @Dragonblade01, how do you go about conversations in your daily life? Do you really need an explanation of woman? Do you think that if we lined up every day people, 90 men and 10 woman, you wouldnt be able to pick out the women immediately if asked?
How are we defining woman, you asked. How biology and most people would definitely it. By being a biological woman ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Uncle_Drew 01/11/18 12:02:32 AM #151: |
ThePrinceFish posted...
Mentally ill males. --- R.I.P. Cavs Uncle Drew 2011-2017 ... Copied to Clipboard!
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