Current Events > So I enjoyed TLJ but I also agree with pretty much all the criticism. *spoilers*

(+) Yeah! (+)

I had an entertaining time at the cinema but I also felt uncomfortable watching it and I couldn't quite put my finger on why until I read some breakdowns on everything that happened.

They just fucking shat on all the lore, rewrote all the shit that JJ Abrams was trying to do, cheapened the best characters and failed to develop the new ones. Worse than that - they introduced some new mechanics that completely change the implications of what makes sense in the Star Wars universe, and they did it all while playing for laughs the entire fucking time.

Not adding anything new to the argument but I understand the intense nerd rage now. If it wasn't star wars I'd just say this was a great movie but they did craft some pretty unforgivable writing holes.
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Same. My biggest things were the, obvious, cheesy Leia thing and the fact the movie seemed like Fallout/Skyrim personified. Felt very basic and almost like a tv show plot.... but then all the sidequests.
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Amazing. Every word of what you just said is wrong.
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Doom_Art posted...

Amazing. Every word of what you just said is wrong.

Lel nice reference

But seriously I'll back every one of these points if you want an argument about it
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Nah, I mean I can definitely see the issues that people had with it, but in my mind at least, for me personally, none of that bothered me.

Or I don't see it as having "damaged" the lore/series, at any rate.
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Doom_Art posted...

Nah, I mean I can definitely see the issues that people had with it, but in my mind at least, for me personally, none of that bothered me.

Or I don't see it as having "damaged" the lore/series, at any rate.

For me there were just 3 things that were entirely unforgivable (the rest are largely inconsequential nerd ramblings or just lazy bad writing)

- The warp speed kamikaze. That changes fucking everything. Literally every conflict up until now should have had ships programmed with droids to pull this move to destroy death stars, destroyers, bases, etc. And now every problem in the next movie will have that hanging over our heads. "Just pull the hyperspeed trick again, that will solve everything"
- Luke's entire character. Underutilized and frankly just kinda wrong. I felt like they had to shoehorn in all these character flaws in order to create some conflict, which didn't sit right with me.
- Rey's complete mastery of the force in like, 3 minutes. She's just too good and it really cheapens everyone else's abilities. There's not even a basis to say she comes from good stock or anything. There's no explanation or hinting here. Her entire character makes every Jedi with the exception of yoda look like a punk and it sets up the expectation that she'll always be able to force her way out of trouble, because that's all she does.
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pinky0926 posted...

- The warp speed kamikaze. That changes fucking everything. Literally every conflict up until now should have had ships programmed with droids to pull this move to destroy death stars, destroyers, bases, etc. And now every problem in the next movie will have that hanging over our heads. "Just pull the hyperspeed trick again, that will solve everything"

Saw someone on the movie board make a pretty good explanation of that, in that the large capital ships have their own gravity wells, but Snoke's had it turned off which allowed it to get fucked up. Paraphrasing of course.
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Heineken14 posted...

pinky0926 posted...

- The warp speed kamikaze. That changes fucking everything. Literally every conflict up until now should have had ships programmed with droids to pull this move to destroy death stars, destroyers, bases, etc. And now every problem in the next movie will have that hanging over our heads. "Just pull the hyperspeed trick again, that will solve everything"

Saw someone on the movie board make a pretty good explanation of that, in that the large capital ships have their own gravity wells, but Snoke's had it turned off which allowed it to get fucked up. Paraphrasing of course.

Weren't the shields still on though? Because Finn failed in his mission to turn off the shields.
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pinky0926 posted...

Heineken14 posted...

pinky0926 posted...

- The warp speed kamikaze. That changes fucking everything. Literally every conflict up until now should have had ships programmed with droids to pull this move to destroy death stars, destroyers, bases, etc. And now every problem in the next movie will have that hanging over our heads. "Just pull the hyperspeed trick again, that will solve everything"

Saw someone on the movie board make a pretty good explanation of that, in that the large capital ships have their own gravity wells, but Snoke's had it turned off which allowed it to get fucked up. Paraphrasing of course.

Weren't the shields still on though? Because Finn failed in his mission to turn off the shields.

I dont think shields help much against an object moving at the speed of light.

Also shields are for blocking energy. I dont think they help as much against physical impact.
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pinky0926 posted...

- Rey's complete mastery of the force in like, 3 minutes. She's just too good and it really cheapens everyone else's abilities. There's not even a basis to say she comes from good stock or anything. There's no explanation or hinting here. Her entire character makes every Jedi with the exception of yoda look like a punk and it sets up the expectation that she'll always be able to force her way out of trouble, because that's all she does.

Snoke literally explains this in simple english.
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It pisses me off rei is literally as strong as, if not stronger than Ren with 3 lessons in the force. I would have liked more build up to it.
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pikachupwnage posted...

I dont think shields help much against an object moving at the speed of light.

Also shields are for blocking energy. I dont think they help as much against physical impact.

But think of the implications here. If a gravity well is the only thing that stops this from working (which sounds kinda fishy to me anway), why didn't say, Admiral Akhbar save the day and take out the destroyer this way? There are a lot of moments in star wars history that could have been saved with a kamikaze attack like this.

SlashmanSG posted...

pinky0926 posted...

- Rey's complete mastery of the force in like, 3 minutes. She's just too good and it really cheapens everyone else's abilities. There's not even a basis to say she comes from good stock or anything. There's no explanation or hinting here. Her entire character makes every Jedi with the exception of yoda look like a punk and it sets up the expectation that she'll always be able to force her way out of trouble, because that's all she does.

Snoke literally explains this in simple english.

A cheap in-universe explanation doesn't really mean it works from a narrative perspective.

Oh, another issue. There's now no actually menacing villain going into the last film. We have one temper tantrum crybaby and another punk ass bitch and between the two of them they're supposed to lead the First Order like Laurel and Hardy or something.
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The humor alone killed it for me. It ruined any and all tension and it wasn't even funny anyway.

But hey, it's Disney and the kiddies gotta laugh.
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pinky0926 posted...

Heineken14 posted...

pinky0926 posted...

- The warp speed kamikaze. That changes fucking everything. Literally every conflict up until now should have had ships programmed with droids to pull this move to destroy death stars, destroyers, bases, etc. And now every problem in the next movie will have that hanging over our heads. "Just pull the hyperspeed trick again, that will solve everything"

Saw someone on the movie board make a pretty good explanation of that, in that the large capital ships have their own gravity wells, but Snoke's had it turned off which allowed it to get fucked up. Paraphrasing of course.

Weren't the shields still on though? Because Finn failed in his mission to turn off the shields.

Literally explained in TFA when they were planning the attack on Starkiller Base.
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ALIEN_WORK2HOP posted...

The humor alone killed it for me. It ruined any and all tension and it wasn't even funny anyway.

But hey, it's Disney and the kiddies gotta laugh.

The initial meeting between Rey and Luke was fucking criminal. You can't set up a scene like that and then rip it apart for a cheap joke, that's just shit.
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Were_Wyrm posted...

pinky0926 posted...

Heineken14 posted...

pinky0926 posted...

- The warp speed kamikaze. That changes fucking everything. Literally every conflict up until now should have had ships programmed with droids to pull this move to destroy death stars, destroyers, bases, etc. And now every problem in the next movie will have that hanging over our heads. "Just pull the hyperspeed trick again, that will solve everything"

Saw someone on the movie board make a pretty good explanation of that, in that the large capital ships have their own gravity wells, but Snoke's had it turned off which allowed it to get fucked up. Paraphrasing of course.

Weren't the shields still on though? Because Finn failed in his mission to turn off the shields.

Literally explained in TFA when they were planning the attack on Starkiller Base.

?
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pinky0926 posted...

Heineken14 posted...

pinky0926 posted...

- The warp speed kamikaze. That changes fucking everything. Literally every conflict up until now should have had ships programmed with droids to pull this move to destroy death stars, destroyers, bases, etc. And now every problem in the next movie will have that hanging over our heads. "Just pull the hyperspeed trick again, that will solve everything"

Saw someone on the movie board make a pretty good explanation of that, in that the large capital ships have their own gravity wells, but Snoke's had it turned off which allowed it to get fucked up. Paraphrasing of course.

Weren't the shields still on though? Because Finn failed in his mission to turn off the shields.

That warp speed kamikaze took out a bunch of star destroyers too though it wasn't just the big ship
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXH5-Ci_Fgc
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frozenshock posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXH5-Ci_Fgc

Infowars
Alex Jones face

No thank you
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pinky0926 posted...

Were_Wyrm posted...

pinky0926 posted...

Heineken14 posted...

pinky0926 posted...

- The warp speed kamikaze. That changes fucking everything. Literally every conflict up until now should have had ships programmed with droids to pull this move to destroy death stars, destroyers, bases, etc. And now every problem in the next movie will have that hanging over our heads. "Just pull the hyperspeed trick again, that will solve everything"

Saw someone on the movie board make a pretty good explanation of that, in that the large capital ships have their own gravity wells, but Snoke's had it turned off which allowed it to get fucked up. Paraphrasing of course.

Weren't the shields still on though? Because Finn failed in his mission to turn off the shields.

Literally explained in TFA when they were planning the attack on Starkiller Base.

?

Ok maybe it was after they left.

https://youtu.be/WmwppdJlVVc?t=23s
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pinky0926 posted...

Infowars
Alex Jones face

No thank you

Come on, don't you want to hear about how the movie was lesbian propaganda?
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pinky0926 posted...

The warp speed kamikaze. That changes fucking everything. Literally every conflict up until now should have had ships programmed with droids to pull this move to destroy death stars, destroyers, bases, etc. And now every problem in the next movie will have that hanging over our heads. "Just pull the hyperspeed trick again, that will solve everything"

there is precedence for ramming a ship into another ship on a suicide mission. it's been done before, though not at light speed - I'mbpretty sure it was only at light speed because it otherwise wouldn't have reached the ship in time. ships are expensive; you generally don't want to do that unless it's a last resort (which it was).

pinky0926 posted...

Luke's entire character. Underutilized and frankly just kinda wrong. I felt like they had to shoehorn in all these character flaws in order to create some conflict, which didn't sit right with me.

Luke has always had flaws. I loved his character arc, and thought that was a great way to end it - projecting his likeness across the galaxy is an unprecedented light-side power

pinky0926 posted...

Rey's complete mastery of the force in like, 3 minutes. She's just too good and it really cheapens everyone else's abilities. There's not even a basis to say she comes from good stock or anything. There's no explanation or hinting here. Her entire character makes every Jedi with the exception of yoda look like a punk and it sets up the expectation that she'll always be able to force her way out of trouble, because that's all she does.

she... breaks a lightsaber and picks up some rocks. that's not "complete mastery"
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SlashmanSG posted...

pinky0926 posted...

- Rey's complete mastery of the force in like, 3 minutes. She's just too good and it really cheapens everyone else's abilities. There's not even a basis to say she comes from good stock or anything. There's no explanation or hinting here. Her entire character makes every Jedi with the exception of yoda look like a punk and it sets up the expectation that she'll always be able to force her way out of trouble, because that's all she does.

Snoke literally explains this in simple english.

What was the explanation?
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Were_Wyrm posted...

Ok maybe it was after they left.

https://youtu.be/WmwppdJlVVc?t=23s

Alright but this just seems to back my point (that hyperspeed is nigh indefensible). I think TLJ shouldn't have introduced this spanner in the works, although it was a very fucking cool scene.

averagejoel posted...

there is precedence for ramming a ship into another ship on a suicide mission. it's been done before, though not at light speed - I'mbpretty sure it was only at light speed because it otherwise wouldn't have reached the ship in time. ships are expensive; you generally don't want to do that unless it's a last resort (which it was).

It just makes me think they could easily rig up some X-wings to light speed into something of any size and go right through it.

Luke has always had flaws. I loved his character arc, and thought that was a great way to end it - projecting his likeness across the galaxy is an unprecedented light-side power

Luke always had flaws but a guy who gives up or a guy who goes to murder a sleeping kid in his sleep because he's got a bit of dark side in him...that doesn't sound like Luke.

he... breaks a lightsaber and picks up some rocks. that's not "complete mastery"

I feel this is a euphemism. She was equal to Ren who had been training for decades at this point and she moved like 5 tonnes worth of rocks almost as an afterthought. Think how long it took Luke to get to anything close to that level. He couldn't even move the X-Wing. I figure after 3 abstract lessons Rey could make the X-wing do backflips.
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pinky0926 posted...

I feel this is a euphemism. She was equal to Ren who had been training for decades at this point and she moved like 5 tonnes worth of rocks almost as an afterthought. Think how long it took Luke to get to anything close to that level. He couldn't even move the X-Wing. I figure after 3 abstract lessons Rey could make the X-wing do backflips.

One huge flaw imo is that Episode 8 happened like right after 7 without any time skip or anything. They could've just made like a 1 year time skip and it would've worked a lot better



also I'll forever be mad
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CEs_EFG posted...

One huge flaw imo is that Episode 8 happened like right after 7 without any time skip or anything. They could've just made like a 1 year time skip and it would've worked a lot better

That and it wouldn't have made that opening scrawl so out of place. The First Order reigns? Fuckers just had their entire planet base blown up, I wouldn't call that "reigning."
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I think some of you are making the mistake of thinking everything on screen was happening in a very linear, equivalent fashion.

Personally I thought it was good and better than TFA. While the humour had a few notable misses, I felt for the most part (particularly the more physical stuff rather than the quips tbh) that it hit the mark well enough.

Same goes for Luke, who is much more interesting as a character now than if he were space ninja jesus, which is apparently what most people mean when they claim it ruined the (now irrelevant anyway) lore. Things like reys parentage and the failure of Finns mission were good subversions too.
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NinjaBreakfast posted...

I think some of you are making the mistake of thinking everything on screen was happening in a very linear, equivalent fashion.

Personally I thought it was good and better than TFA. While the humour had a few notable misses, I felt for the most part (particularly the more physical stuff rather than the quips tbh) that it hit the mark well enough.

Same goes for Luke, who is much more interesting as a character now than if he were space ninja jesus, which is apparently what most people mean when they claim it ruined the (now irrelevant anyway) lore. Things like reys parentage and the failure of Finns mission were good subversions too.

I'm here for this take

I loved that it had elements of Empire Strikes Back, and that it largely destroyed Abrams' stuff. it was much more interesting than TFA

my biggest qualm is how little they utilized Finn's potential. I don't mind the failure, but I think that whole storyline could have been done a lot better, and in a much less forced way
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NinjaBreakfast posted...

Same goes for Luke, who is much more interesting as a character now than if he were space ninja jesus, which is apparently what most people mean when they claim it ruined the (now irrelevant anyway) lore. Things like reys parentage and the failure of Finns mission were good subversions too.

Yeah, kind of glad they didn't go the old expanded universe route, where Luke goes to the dark side, but comes back, slice a Death Star in 2 with just thinking about turning his lightsaber on, is the baddest most perfectest Jedi to have ever Jedi'd.*

*I haven't personally read any of the expanded universe stuff, aside from articles/wikis about some t hings, but it always came off as way to try hardy super powered to me.

Also, hoping they stick with Rey's parents being nobodies. If it turns out she is related to the Skywalkers or Kenobis, it will make the universe feel incredibly small, IMO.
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there is def some quote unquote cool stuff in the EU imo (speaking as somebody who admittedly never read anything from it in depth), I just don't know if it would really work in a cinematic setting, certainly not in a trilogy of films and certainly not in the middle part of same.

from a story/film pov, making luke a conflicted veteran in the manner they did was a lot more interesting than having him backflip around and murder planets by blinking or w/e. same goes for things like chosen one tropes and the like. the subversion makes for a far more interesting, fresher product.

i also wonder about the practicalities of getting mark hamill (even with a double) to do all this badass shit lol. like sure it works on text when characters can be whatever you want them to be, but I think it's very obvious that the 'old' actors (arguably bar Harrison Ford but he is older anyway and looks it) didn't exactly live the cleanest lives between now and the original trilogy. I think trying to get Luke to look like the space ninja god some people want him to be would be a difficult undertaking.
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pikachupwnage posted...

Also shields are for blocking energy. I dont think they help as much against physical impact.

Shield do block physical impacts. Think back to Episode 6.

First, the Imperial Lander the rebels stole needed the shield on the forest moon to be lowered to land.

Second, the rebels had to traverse the inside of the Death Star II in the Falcon to destroy it, which needed the shield mainframe on Endor to be destroyed.

So shields do block fighters and ships.
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ZMythos posted...

pikachupwnage posted...

Also shields are for blocking energy. I dont think they help as much against physical impact.

Shield do block physical impacts. Think back to Episode 6.

First, the Imperial Lander the rebels stole needed the shield on the forest moon to be lowered to land.

Second, the rebels had to traverse the inside of the Death Star II in the Falcon to destroy it, which needed the shield mainframe on Endor to be destroyed.

So shields do block fighters and ships.

But at lightspeed?
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dave_is_slick posted...

But at lightspeed?

Well shields take power and fuel just like any other system. We've seen ships "divert power" to and from the shields of their ships before.

Shields can also be penetrated by a strong enough force, like the Star Destroyer collapsing into the shield surrounding Scarrif in Rogue One.

So to answer your question, a rebel cruiser (which is massive in its own right) at light speed destroying Snoke's main ship isn't unheard of. I was mostly dispelling the myth that shields only block blasters.
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Shields don't block ships at lightspeed. It was shown in TFA. Han jumps the Falcon onto Starkiller base so that they could disable the shield.
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pikachupwnage posted...

I dont think shields help much against an object moving at the speed of light.

Also shields are for blocking energy. I dont think they help as much against physical impact.

Not to be pedantic or anything, specially since star wars makes absolutely zero sense in terms of physics, but objects travelling at the speed of light have no mass.
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