Board 8 > Survivor: Heroes/Healers/Hustlers Discussion Topic 5: Spoiler-free finale

(+) Yeah! (+)

StormTR posted...

It's because partly of the advantage of playing before, and partly because well, you already failed to win on your first chance when somebody like say, Denise, didn't.

And I don't really count Natalie A's TAR experience, because I honestly don't know how the two could be considered similar things at all, or how Rocker somehow thought Nadiya's TAR experience would make her a huge threat.

I believe that was actually Dale.

And I respect your way of ranking but I think you take their individual game for face value in a single season. Not their career as a whole. That's two different rankings
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StormTR posted...

And I don't really count Natalie A's TAR experience, because I honestly don't know how the two could be considered similar things at all, or how Rocker somehow thought Nadiya's TAR experience would make her a huge threat.

It's more because the twins proved themselves to be untrustworthy on TAR.
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1. Joe
2. Chrissy
3. Jessica
4. Alan
5. Lauren
6. Devon
7. Cole
8. Dr. Mike
9. Ali
10. Ryan
11. Ashley
12. Simone
13. Patrick
14. Desi
15. JP
16. Roark
17. Katrina
18. Ben

Ben is the only one I dislike, Desi through Katrina is "who cares," everyone from Patrick upwards I liked on at least some level.
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edgic


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For overall ratings I'd give Ben a CPP, probably give Katrina MOR, and maybe give Cole OTTN, but otherwise I agree with the rest.
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what is MOR again?

and I don't see INVs anywhere!
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GTM posted...

what is MOR again?

and I don't see INVs anywhere!

Middle of the Road. It's basically CP-lite.

Ryan doesn't give INVs. On the official chart Simone got an INV in episode 1 and Roark got an INV in episode 2.
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Is that the old Edgic color scheme? It's harder to follow than the ones Redmond does (remember: I blog for him, so yeah).

That chart doesn't do INVs at all. Simone was very clearly INV in episode 1. They took her out of it entirely. I don't like giving an INV to anyone, but I had to do just that. J.P. also should have at least one INV at the merge and possibly be INV overall. All people will say about him in two years are "Who?" and "...and things like that."

I don't see Ryan as being remembered negatively. I just see him as MOR atonal. Ben will be remembered as the veteran with PTSD, the idol hunter that could, and King Arthur.
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Old color scheme? wut, since when is there a new one?
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Oh I didn't know you blogged for Inside Survivor. Out of curiosity, do you get paid? I've never understood if IS is a hobby or job for Redmond lol
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andy blogs for inside survivor?

weird I hadnt heard about that
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I've posted the links in these topics shortly after they get posted, guys >_>
See the second post of this topic. Here' the link for last week's episode again:
http://insidesurvivor.com/historical-perspectives-how-to-set-off-a-ben-bomb-31391

Squirrelgate posted...

Out of curiosity, do you get paid? I've never understood if IS is a hobby or job for Redmond lol

His site's profit is just pocket change since almost all of the advertising revenue pays for the site itself. He can't afford to pay any of us, unfortunately, so it's just a hobby thing. Not that I mind - I do enjoy it, and I do hope to be back next season. Since the theme itself is so ingrained in Survivor history, I would HOPE I come back. But with him being so hard-pressed for time this past season, I dunno for sure.
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once again I was being facetious
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Number is visibility right? So all 1s are /UTR[PN]?/ ?

And since MOR is CP-lite, there's no MOR5?
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GTM posted...

Number is visibility right? So all 1s are /UTR[PN]?/ ?

And since MOR is CP-lite, there's no MOR5?

Visibility and rating have nothing to do with each other. Someone can get one very brief scene and have it be very complex, or a lot of shallow content. There have been plenty of MOR5s over the years and at least one CP1.

More often than not, CPs range from a 3-5 visibility, MORs range from a 2-4 visibility, and UTRs range from a 1-3 visibility, but these are not rules.
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Underleveled posted...

Visibility and rating have nothing to do with each other.

I\m assuming there is some link, as I don't see anyone ever being a UTR5.

then assuming there is lots of content, what's the difference between CP and MOR?
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GTM posted...

I\m assuming there is some link, as I don't see anyone ever being a UTR5.

UTR never goes above a 3, and even a 3 is rare. Visibility gets better ratings than UTR.
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BlueCrystalTear posted...

GTM posted...

I\m assuming there is some link, as I don't see anyone ever being a UTR5.

UTR never goes above a 3, and even a 3 is rare. Visibility gets better ratings than UTR.

The biggest problem is that a lot of people still can't agree whether narration is MOR or UTR. Officially it was considered MOR up through Redemption Island, and then starting with South Pacific they changed it to UTR. Pretty sure Mike Chiesl was a big catalyst for this. But a lot of people, myself included, still consider it MOR. Not that I vote often anymore but still.
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To me, UTR is just a total of 1-3 confessionals, Tribal Council remarks, and significant lines to other players, mostly meaningless and offering no strategic insight. So one narrating confessional is UTR. However, when mixed with anything more significant, it's MOR. I can see it both ways, but narrating content is points for MOR since it offers visibility even if it doesn't give us anything significant. You just need enough of those, else you're UTR.
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Underleveled posted...

Scot, Will and..... Joel? Joel was a jerk but never registered on the "horrible person" scale with me.... but let's not turn this topic into a debate. We can head to another topic for that. :-P

Was referring to Dirk here for his religious intolerance. He's probably become a better guy by now....

...since I know somebody that knows him >_>
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Im putting out a new video tomorrow discussing the F4 twist.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RaTvsC8EAQ
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I thought Dirk was overly religious. He brought the Bible on as his item
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eaedwards6400 posted...

I thought Dirk was overly religious. He brought the Bible on as his item

I thought the religion intolerance was meant to be "intolerant towards other religions".

I'm in the middle of a Borneo rewatch and can confirm that while Dirk is the original Jesus warrior (and extremely annoying), I never got the sense that he was intolerant of other views.
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For people who want more fuel for the rigging fire

https://tinyurl.com/ychrqf6x
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You know, there's some talk that [hidden] Immunity Idols are more flashy than Individual Immunity wins, because the jury sees the Immunity Idol play, you know?

They don't really see the immunity wins. So when they're thinking about who should be the winner, idols in their mind could weigh heavier than challenges.

And here is exactly why some fans, some people in this topic, tend to look unfavorably upon winners who rely on idols.
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Several days later and I'm still mad that Devon's amazing F5 move is ultimately gonna get overshadowed by Ben's bullshit win.
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yup, was the best moment of the finale for sure.

especially when mike asked if devon voted for him. "i did."
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It was a really intelligent move, and no real way it could backfire. If Ben didn't play an idol, there's still enough Ben votes to send him home. If he did, Devon knew Ryan and Chrissy would save him over Mike. Also Mike was such a reasonable person and such a fan of big moves that if it came to it, it likely wouldn't have cost Devon Mike's jury vote (if anything it might have helped).
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Inviso posted...

Several days later and I'm still mad that Devon's amazing F5 move is ultimately gonna get overshadowed by Ben's bullshit win.

The twist is fine. The execution of it - that nobody knew until Chrissy got the advantage - was not. In Ghost Island, they were told about it before the game and I presumed the final four were reminded of it. If they had known about it in advance, however, what would that have changed? Ben had idols to keep surviving votes. He also knew how to play them.

As for immunity challenges vs. idols, I'd say that a player that needs to win out on challenges is weaker than one that relies on idols. When your back is against the wall, all you should need to do is get immunity once or twice and get rid of your biggest hurdle, then try to maneuver your way strategically. Now I can't say Ben didn't try to do that, and he certainly did a better job than Mike. He was just around a highly inept cast that was legitimately bad at keeping things secret and was openly unwilling to work with him.

Devon is the best player from HHH. Ben might actually be second, shockingly.
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I also don't think the twist is inherently bad, but the current execution of it is. My main problem is that there's no longer a vote where idols aren't in play. That adds a fourth strategy to winning the game; it's not just outwitting to actively eliminate people who can beat you in the end, outplaying to win challenges to get to the end without pissing people off, or outlasting by having a really strong social game so no one wants to vote you out. "Outsearching" is now just as viable, where you find idols every round and win by impressing the jury with your big moves. I personally find that fourth tenet to be much less impressive given how it's been added to the game over time and how production-influenced it can be.
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In the immediate aftermath of the episode, I was willing to give the fire challenge a chance, because yeah, it was just the circumstances of this particular season that made it horrible. But after thinking about it, I just dislike the fire making challenge in general. I mean, I already HATE the change from F2 to F3. It felt wrong back in Cook Islands, but worse than that, it didn't solve the problem it was meant to solve. If anything, it exacerbated the problem. In a final 2, you need to have solid relationships with EVERYONE, because anyone could theoretically win the final challenge. But in a final 3, an alliance of three has a 75% chance of winning immunity and taking out that outsider.

On paper, the final four fire making tiebreaker is meant to correct that last sentence, but in reality, it's just bullshit and punishes players for good gameplay. Ben was the biggest threat in the game and the players wanted to get rid of him from the final 7 onwards. He found idols (the last of which was rather questionable, based on post-game interviews), and then was gifted a second chance after he LOST the final immunity challenge. And yeah, the fans are happy because their golden boy made it to the end and won. But fuck that. The fans getting what they want every goddamn season is why Big Brother so often turns to shit.

For all this talk of "the best player gets cut at four", that's not always true. Tai got cut at four, but if this twist was in place, odds are Brad takes Troyzan to the finals and Tai stands a good chance at beating Sarah in the tiebreaker. Then Tai likely loses to Brad, while legitimately good winner Sarah gets fucked at four. We saw what happened to Devon/Chrissy this season. My personal pick for the best winner Survivor has ever had is Natalie Anderson. And under this twist, Jaclyn won the final immunity challenge and she has two options. Either she takes Missy to the finals, Keith likely beats Natalie and Natalie gets relegated to the bullshit fourth place spot. Or she takes Natalie, Keith definitely beats Missy, and Natalie loses in a 4-3-1 vote to a likable guy who was an outright idiot for most of the season.

If you're on the outs at the final 4, it's because you played a poor game. Either you alienated yourself, or you made yourself too big of a target for one reason or another. It's bullshit to have a tiebreaker challenge to get someone to the finals, because that person might have played an objectively poor game, but wins simply because the other players can't execute their strategy to get rid of them. Like, as much as it sucks to see a final like Rob/Phillip/Natalie where they'd lose to anyone else in the cast...it takes skill to get that group to the end together. If you REALLY want to encourage that threat to be kept around at the final 4, bring back the final 2. That way that solid alliance of three has to consider "how am I gonna get to the finals?" rather than just saying "oh, we'll stick together" from the final 6 onward and having no way to break them up.

Finally, for as much as I hate Mike Holloway's win, Ben's win has given me some newgound respect for Mike. EVERYONE had the same odds of winning those immunity challenges. Anyone could've beaten Mike, but not only did he outperform them, but he also played it smart in targeting players like Tyler or Sierra, who were his biggest physical competition. With Ben, the problem with idols is just how arbitrarily they're hidden by production. Ryan had to find a clue to know to search under the flag. Lauren had to find two pieces. Ben just needed to find a marking saying "Dig ->" Plus, the thing about idols is that the learning curve is vastly more beneficial to people who find idols early than to people who've never found one. Once you know what you're looking for, it's easier to find another. Hence so many people finding multiple idols nowadays.
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One of the (many) negative points is that there is now less riding on the final immunity challenge. That final challenge SHOULD be the last out for a player who is one against three and surviving on borrowed time, but now it's not as crucial that they win it because there's now ANOTHER chance for them to get into the final three, and it rests on the shoulders of just one of the other three to take them out. I'm going to try to go more in-depth on this in the future, but for now I'll just say that by design it gives a big advantage to players who played a poor social game, which isn't something that needs to be rewarded (nor should it be).
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By the way, I've been meaning to ask, when Chrissy read out loud the words "vote for one person to sit next to you at the final tribal council" did anyone else for that one split second have a glimmer of hope that it was a final two and she was simultaneously eliminating two jury members, until she finished the sentence? Now THAT would have been an advantage.
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Update on my Borneo watchthrough...


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I completely agree with Inviso.
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Inviso posted...

Like, as much as it sucks to see a final like Rob/Phillip/Natalie where they'd lose to anyone else in the cast...it takes skill to get that group to the end together. If you REALLY want to encourage that threat to be kept around at the final 4, bring back the final 2. That way that solid alliance of three has to consider "how am I gonna get to the finals?" rather than just saying "oh, we'll stick together" from the final 6 onward and having no way to break them up.

It also adds the element of one of the three having to unilaterally betray one of the other two. Like, maybe this is an extreme example, but imagine Rob votes Natalie out, she trashes Rob at Ponderosa, and Phillip wins a la Josh in BB19.
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Andy, do you have a brother named Aiden?
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In general, I feel like some of the best winners we've had would've been totally screwed by this twist, in favor of what? Getting more fan favorite winners? Like, I'm thinking about it if this rule was in place in prior seasons.

Ozzy wins FIC, probably takes Sundra to the finals. Yul's idol still in effect might send Becky out automatically? Yul probably makes the finals regardless and I doubt the outcome changes.

Dreamz either takes Cassandra (putting Yau against Earl and I'd wager Yau-Man wins), or he keeps his word to Yau, brings him to the end, Earl probably beats Cassandra and Yau-Man wins the season. Yeah, Yau-Man is a likable winner, but his win would be slightly tainted by the circumstances of the season, plus it robs us of Earl as a winner, who is legitimately one of the best players ever.

Amanda likely takes Courtney, and there's a good chance Denise beats Todd in the finals. From there, do ANY of Amanda/Courtney/Denise really compare to the skill Todd displayed in his win? Hell, the jury likely awards Denise on the basis of her sob story alone. That'd suck.

Gabon had a fire-making tiebreaker, and it was awesome specifically because Bob EARNED that right to compete. As it stands, Susie probably takes Matty and Matty wins by being inoffensive enough to secure Randy's vote.

Samoa, Brett vs. Mick...either we get the same outcome, or Brett wins solely because his entire alliance comprised the jury. That's not really deserving so much as his alliance was massive and he was the last one standing. It'd be more of a Fabio situation than anything.

HvV, Parvati faces Jerri since Russell was dead set on taking Sandra to the finals. Jerri might win. Maybe. But then we lose out on Sandra as a two-time winner.

No clue what Fabio would do in Nicaragua, but he was probably locked in as the winner the second he won the FIC, so it doesn't matter either way.

RI, Probst's precious Rob might actually lose if Ashley beats Natalie or Phillip in a fire-making tiebreaker. Imagine Rob losing to Ashley Underwood of all people. I'D find it funny, but the show would HATE it.

SP, Sophie gets screwed while Ozzy is gifted a win after sitting on Redemption Island for most of the game and doing nothing but win challenges.

OW, Christina still probably loses, so whatever.

Philippines, Malcolm likely beats Denise and eliminates the only female winner over forty.

Caramoan, Eddie possibly beats Sherri or Dawn (whoever Cochran picks) and has a good chance of winning just because he was well-liked by the jury, despite the fact that he was out of the loop almost every round (and he would have succeeded in large part due to Erik's medevac, making him the original Michele.)

BvW would be Tina MAYBE making fire faster than Monica? And then she wins solely because the jury hated the other three. That wouldn't be satisfying, and again, I think the show would hate Tina as a two-time winner more than having Tyson in the winner's circle.

SJDS, I already stated how this twist would guarantee Keith as a winner while Natalie, best winner of all time (strategically) gets fucked over regardless of who Jaclyn picks.

WA, we already got a fire-making challenge and the only better outcome is Mike taking Carolyn to the finals and getting a chance to cut Will's dead fish ass before then.

GC, Kelley getting a chance is the first time in sixteen seasons where this twist MIGHT have resulted in a better outcome. But she'd still need to win the fire-making challenge.

KR, Michele saves Cydney and Tai likely beats Aubry. It's the same outcome either way.

MvGX, David MAYBE beats Adam, and we get a more satisfying winner...so I guess that makes twice this format would improve things.

Already mentioned GC and HHH.

So yeah, there are TWO instances where this twist maybe improves the game. That's it.
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It's a bad twist no matter how you slice it. But if you don't think about it too much it's bearable!
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Peridiam posted...

Andy, do you have a brother named Aiden?

I have no brother period.

And Inviso is right... retroactively looking at all of that, I'd agree this twist doesn't help things. Hope they get rid of it starting with 37.

However, Inviso... you're acknowledging some of the best players of respective seasons being cut at 4, like Kelley and David. I'm not saying it happens every season. It doesn't. It did happen this season, though, directly because of this twist. But to generalize all final jury members as poor players is an egregious statement that's wholly untrue. Many of them were voted out for having played such a good game, though it's more common in a final two situation where all they needed to do was win the final immunity. That's why Probst changed it to a final three. He was sick of seeing players like Kathy, Cesternino, and Deitz getting third.

I think David getting 4th got them to do this, with Wentworth already making them angry. Rodney was also the best player his season. But getting past that final hurdle is part of the game and we just have to accept that sometimes, the way the cards fall, the best player doesn't always win.
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BlueCrystalTear posted...

I think David getting 4th got them to do this

I find this hard to believe. And I DO believe that Terry coming in 3rd on Exile Island had a large role in them expanding the finals from 2 to 3.

Even if it's true, all that's gonna happen is that the big-ass threat comes in 5th now instead of 4th, just like they started coming in 4th instead of 3rd.
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I'm not saying they're necessarily poor players, but I dislike the stated logic behind this twist of "well, we don't want the BEST players getting screwed at the final four". It's not that they're POOR players. Just that they weren't good enough players to secure their spot in the final 3 compared to the people that ACTUALLY made the final 3. And honestly, me saying Kelley is just because Spencer/Tasha were blowout opponents for Jeremy. David is the only player who I think COULD (not WOULD) have made the finals and given us a good winner when the final 3 we got all kinda sucked.
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BlueCrystalTear posted...

In Ghost Island, they were told about it before the game and I presumed the final four were reminded of it.

Is this a certainty? Because the cast of Fiji, who hadn't seen the ending to Cook Islands prior to going in, were completely expecting a final 2. They were just as shocked as the cast of Cooks to learn that the F4 challenge was the final one, and Dreamz even said that he wouldn't have made the deal he did with Yau-Man if he knew that there would be a F3 instead of a F2.
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Underleveled posted...

Is this a certainty?

that's what the boss said
https://twitter.com/RedmondSurvivor/status/943877021939261440

He's been wrong before, though.
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Okay, that's cool then.

Err, I don't know what I meant by that. I mean, okay cool good to know. Not okay cool now I'm fine with it.
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I just finished my Gabon rewatch. I will confirm that of that Final 4 Matty of all people may have played the best game as funny as that sounds. I know Gabon is blacklisted but I would like to see Marcus, Kenny or Matty play again.
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Underleveled posted...

BlueCrystalTear posted...

I think David getting 4th got them to do this

I find this hard to believe. And I DO believe that Terry coming in 3rd on Exile Island had a large role in them expanding the finals from 2 to 3.

Even if it's true, all that's gonna happen is that the big-ass threat comes in 5th now instead of 4th, just like they started coming in 4th instead of 3rd.

Yeah, it's sort of how Michele's win led to them switching up how the FTC works to where it's this the ridiculous way it is now.

eaedwards6400 posted...

I just finished my Gabon rewatch. I will confirm that of that Final 4 Matty of all people may have played the best game as funny as that sounds. I know Gabon is blacklisted but I would like to see Marcus, Kenny or Matty play again.

Ken would be a great returnee. Matty, eh. Marcus I'm not sure what would make you want to see him again. He's not good TV and not a particularly amazing player either. The ONLY thing I can think of is that he falls into that "possibly got screwed by production" group.
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