Current Events > Ok legit example of some real life SJW nonsense I heard last night

(+) Yeah! (+)

Went to a cocktail bar in Edinburgh with some friends. One was a teacher, the other two academics. Everyone's white, the teacher and one of the academics are women. This place is one of my favourite bars in town because they do good drinks and there's no gimmick to the place. It's just a nice bar.

They're playing some Anderson Paak in the background and teacher says 'See this bar is pretty good but the problem is they're always playing all this hip hop music to a bunch of bourgeois white people, the cultural appropriation is ridiculous."

I just about spat out my drink. Normally in situations like this I change the subject because these conversations never go well, but I couldn't stop myself this time. "Is it? How is it?"

We ended up having a pretty restrained conversation with me trying to understand why she would think that white people hearing hip hop is "cultural appropriation". God fucking damn it, way to ruin an old fashioned.
---

Do they want segregation again?
---

It's always people with white guilt.

Good job on calling out her bullshit.
---

Like if Iggy Azalea was the music playing and this teacher's point was about people like that acting like they came from the ghetto and putting on a "black" accent then I could see what she was saying, but goddamn are we really at a point now according to some people where you've got to think about what kind of music you're allowed enjoy?
---

What's an old fashioned?
---

I get it: for rich white people to enjoy (or pretend to enjoy) hiphop comes off as really fake, or like black music is seen as a charming "accessory" to their lives. But really that's just an assumption and it's an unfair one. There's nothing that keeps a financially comfortable person from enjoying good lyrics and a sick beat.

Also those kinds of people aren't seeing the bigger picture. If white people enjoy hip hop they're guilty of cultural appropriation, but if white people ignore hip hop they're the reason black artists can't break into the mainstream. So wtf are white people supposed to do?

This was all so much simpler before the days of social media, when most idiotic opinions were kept hidden or at the very least no one could react to them immediately in a public way and stir up society.

Yeah, that's pretty ridiculous.

I'm a musician and I always get into what exactly cultural appropriation is within music. I for one believe it doesn't exist. Music to me, and many of my ilk, is a language that can span all cultures and can touch pretty much the entire population of the world. It's a hard point to get across to non-musicians.

Normally, if the person is being hardheaded about it I'll say "Fine. No one can make music except for indigenous people cause they were the ones that started it," just to piss then off and then change the subject.
---

Asherlee10 posted...

1. Was she cool after the conversation about it?
2. You're brave to order an old fashioned. I have no luck around me.

1. No, she was pretty upset in that British "I'm not going to say anything but I'll be telling my friends about this later" sort of way. The problem is I look like a bona fide aryan race motherfucker with a hitler youth haircut to match, so whenever topics like this come up the deck is stacked against me to begin with. Don't get much leeway in social justice issues when you're a tall blond white straight male.
2. It's my go-to when all the bar's unique cocktails seem unappealing. I'll usually enjoy it so long as they don't royally fuck it up.
---

And they allow someone like that to teach others
---

"What's this? A white man is making tacos? CULTURAL APPROPRIATION!!!!!!"
---

which bar was it

pinky0926 posted...

1. No, she was pretty upset in that British "I'm not going to say anything but I'll be telling my friends about this later" sort of way. The problem is I look like a bona fide aryan race motherf***er with a hitler youth haircut to match, so whenever topics like this come up the deck is stacked against me to begin with. Don't get much leeway in social justice issues when you're a tall blond white straight male.

sounds like she was never going to give your opinion the time of day. why do you hang with her? or was she a friend of a friend?

Asherlee10 posted...

2. You're brave to order an old fashioned. I have no luck around me.

how does a bar screw up an old fashioned
---

teepan95 posted...

What's an old fashioned?

Whisky/bourbon/brandy, mixed with sugar, bitters, orange rind and with a big old ice cube dropped in the middle. It's a nice old man style cocktail.

SArm_v2_0 posted...

I get it: for rich white people to enjoy (or pretend to enjoy) hiphop comes off as really fake, or like black music is seen as a charming "accessory" to their lives. But really that's just an assumption and it's an unfair one. There's nothing that keeps a financially comfortable person from enjoying good lyrics and a sick beat.

Also those kinds of people aren't seeing the bigger picture. If white people enjoy hip hop they're guilty of cultural appropriation, but if white people ignore hip hop they're the reason black artists can't break into the mainstream. So wtf are white people supposed to do?

This was all so much simpler before the days of social media, when most idiotic opinions were kept hidden or at the very least no one could react to them immediately in a public way and stir up society.

I can see the point you're making in the first paragraph there, and certainly a lot of white people do hop on a hip hop bandwagon without any real appreciation of it, but it kind of grates me because I listen to hip hop all the time. At home with headphones in. So to have someone who's clearly a lot less interested in music in general tell me that this particular music is not for me (and a white woman to boot) - it just rubbed me up the wrong way.
---

I think that's a lot of bs. Why can't people just like what they like without any negative or presumptuous connotations behind it?
---

Yeah, the bar would have been much better if it only played country and made non-whites feel unwelcome. /s

God damn people are fucking stupid.
---

If anything, you'd expect someone like that to rail on hip-hop itself for being problematic, as opposed to who's 'allowed' to listen to it
---

pinky0926 posted...

I can see the point you're making in the first paragraph there, and certainly a lot of white people do hop on a hip hop bandwagon without any real appreciation of it

honestly i don't even see value in that point

who are we to try to judge how much others 'appreciate' something

it's basically the same argument as that against 'fake geeks' and we can easily see why that's bullshit
---

teepan95 posted...

What's an old fashioned?

An amazing whisky drink. Can't remember any of the ingredients though but it's fantastic for even non whisky drinkers.

Asherlee10 posted...

If anything, listening to music from cultures that are unlike your own would be cultural appreciation.

My culture is one of the most homogeneous and creatively restrictive ones around. If I felt bad enough to not listen to any song to avoid cultural appropriation, I'd have to slash out 100% of my library right now.
---

Infinite 2003 posted...

And they allow someone like that to teach others

To be fair this would have very little bearing on her job at teaching 6 year olds not to piss themselves in class.

Darkman124 posted...

which bar was it

Bramble, on Queen street. Apparently voted one of the world's best bars or something according to someone.
https://assets.worldsbestbars.com/bar_425_320/Screen%20Shot%202015-06-04%20at%2011_5576bfa0d61af.png

pinky0926 posted...

sounds like she was never going to give your opinion the time of day. why do you hang with her? or was she a friend of a friend?

Friend of a friend. I'm not usually one to discount someone for their differing worldview but the surest way is to be smug and point to ad hominems.

Asherlee10 posted...

how does a bar screw up an old fashioned

I had one recently that had so much crushed ice in it it may as well have been a McDonalds coke.
---

Darkman124 posted...

it's basically the same argument as that against 'fake geeks'

That's a bingo! It's the gate keeper mentality. Everyone apparently is a bunch of fucking hypocrites.

Sad_Face posted...

teepan95 posted...

What's an old fashioned?

An amazing whisky drink. Can't remember any of the ingredients though but it's fantastic for even non whisky drinkers.

Whiskey (bourbon for me) + bitters + sugar + splash o water + ice + orange wedge or peel + cherries
But I prefer a modified version;
https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/267-food/76015617
---

Darkman124 posted...

pinky0926 posted...

I can see the point you're making in the first paragraph there, and certainly a lot of white people do hop on a hip hop bandwagon without any real appreciation of it

honestly i don't even see value in that point

who are we to try to judge how much others 'appreciate' something

it's basically the same argument as that against 'fake geeks' and we can easily see why that's bullshit

I'm throwing out guesses at this point, but I can imagine there's a bit of bitterness towards the idea that music is made by working class black people for middle class white people's entertainment, like how jazz was throughout most of the 20th century.

I don't know if that's a sound idea but maybe that's where it comes from.
---

pinky0926 posted...

I'm throwing out guesses at this point, but I can imagine there's a bit of bitterness towards the idea that music is made by working class black people for middle class white people's entertainment, like how jazz was throughout most of the 20th century.

music is made by people looking to sell their talents in exchange for currency

why would a seller be bitter towards his customers?

why would a bystander with nothing invested in the transaction be bitter towards either side of the transaction?

sounds to me like you were very easy on her and she was not used to people disagreeing with anything she said.
---

Asherlee10 posted...

The times I've ordered that I can remember...

- too much bitters
- too much whiskey
- too many cherries
- dirty orange peel

I just gave up ordering them. And I don't want to be that person that stands guard while a bartender makes one and correct them when they make a mistake.

does not compute
---

pinky0926 posted...

Whisky/bourbon/brandy, mixed with sugar, bitters, orange rind and with a big old ice cube dropped in the middle. It's a nice old man style cocktail.

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

Whiskey (bourbon for me) + bitters + sugar + splash o water + ice + orange wedge or peel + cherries

Thank you gentlemen.

pinky0926 posted...

I can see the point you're making in the first paragraph there, and certainly a lot of white people do hop on a hip hop bandwagon without any real appreciation of it, but it kind of grates me because I listen to hip hop all the time. At home with headphones in. So to have someone who's clearly a lot less interested in music in general tell me that this particular music is not for me (and a white woman to boot) - it just rubbed me up the wrong way.

I was thinking about mentioning what Sarm said, before I saw his post. You'll never hear a mainstream hip hop artist complain about White folks listening to their music because it's a requirement that your music is able to appeal to them (the majority race of the US and Western world) if you want to go big.

In fact, I think one of the greatest honors a musician can have is to have people from any part of the world enjoy his music, after all, music is a universal language.
---

Darkman124 posted...

pinky0926 posted...

I'm throwing out guesses at this point, but I can imagine there's a bit of bitterness towards the idea that music is made by working class black people for middle class white people's entertainment, like how jazz was throughout most of the 20th century.

music is made by people looking to sell their talents in exchange for currency

why would a seller be bitter towards his customers?

why would a bystander with nothing invested in the transaction be bitter towards either side of the transaction?

sounds to me like you were very easy on her and she was not used to people disagreeing with anything she said.

Yes and yes, I find teachers in general are not used to being held up by other people and the further we got into the argument the more I could see that it was just going to ruin a sunday night.

You're right though, I can't think of many hip hop artists that would be mad at the fact that they have a large white audience that buys their shit and goes to their shows. I've heard people get upset that certain genres like funk have been "taken over" by white people in recent decades, but maybe that's just because funk is struggling to stay relevant.
---

Darkman124 posted...

how does a bar screw up an old fashioned

I ordered a gin & juice. Saw the waitress go to the bar. And then come back to the table and ask "what kind of juice?" :-/

To the OP. Fine. Is my best friend's step father appropriating country and western simply because he's a black man? If not, then I'll just drink the bleach now as I don't want to live on this planet anymore.
---

Asherlee10 posted...

I don't have enough hair on my chest for all that

Whats your goto on an OF?

Here's my new favorite way;
Instead of sugar cube, maple syrup.
Instead of Angostura bitters, I used walnut bitters.
Glass rimmed with a twisted orange peel
Few ounces of Four Roses small batch, ice, and an orange wedge and cherry garnish.
---

pinky0926 posted...

Darkman124 posted...

pinky0926 posted...

I'm throwing out guesses at this point, but I can imagine there's a bit of bitterness towards the idea that music is made by working class black people for middle class white people's entertainment, like how jazz was throughout most of the 20th century.

music is made by people looking to sell their talents in exchange for currency

why would a seller be bitter towards his customers?

why would a bystander with nothing invested in the transaction be bitter towards either side of the transaction?

sounds to me like you were very easy on her and she was not used to people disagreeing with anything she said.

Yes and yes, I find teachers in general are not used to being held up by other people and the further we got into the argument the more I could see that it was just going to ruin a sunday night.

You're right though, I can't think of many hip hop artists that would be mad at the fact that they have a large white audience that buys their shit and goes to their shows. I've heard people get upset that certain genres like funk have been "taken over" by white people in recent decades, but maybe that's just because funk is struggling to stay relevant.

The idea that you need to be a certain race or be from a certain background to enjoy or take part in a music genre is idiotic and honestly pretty racist
---

thanosibe posted...

I ordered a gin & juice. Saw the waitress go to the bar. And then come back to the table and ask "what kind of juice?" :-/

I don't think that's a "real" cocktail bud. Of course she's going to ask what juice.
---

On the internet it almost seems like one big joke. SJWism in real life is the worst :/
---

The best Old Fashioned I ever had was a Rum and Raisin old fashioned. Although at that point I question if it's even an old fashioned anymore.
---

YourDrunkFather posted...

The idea that you need to be a certain race or be from a certain background to enjoy or take part in a music genre is idiotic and honestly pretty racist

Agreed.
---

YourDrunkFather posted...

The idea that you need to be a certain race or be from a certain background to enjoy or take part in a music genre is idiotic and honestly pretty racist

Ok, here's where I start to think there's something of an argument to be had.

Certain music genres require strong cultural elements to make it work. As soon as you start having to fake an accent or pretend to be something you're not in order to make it work, it comes across as pretty disingenuous at best.

Think about me, a white scottish man, putting on a ghetto detroit accent and trying to pass myself off as someone who knows what it's like to grow up in "the hood" so that I can sell hip hop records. Imagine all my lyrics being about hoes and tricks and drugs and gangs when you know and I know that I went to a boarding school in the north of Scotland for the best part of my adolescence.

Or think about me trying to do a Gospel preacher accent and talking about Jesus and touch your neighbour and so on when I'm not religious nor did I ever spend any time in a gospel church.

Now if we're just talking about things like how beats work or styles work then sure, you can adapt a musical genre to your background and make it work. Like The Streets, or Hilltop Hoods, or Die Antwoord - all examples of how you take a genre and mould it your background and treat the entire thing with respect. But I don't know if you can straight up mimic american hip hop or gospel as someone like me without it being pretty blatantly racist.

I enjoy these genres immensely and I don't feel guilty for doing so, but I'm not about to start pretending that the themes they're talking about and the culture that gave birth to them has anything to do with me.
---

Sad_Face posted...

I was thinking about mentioning what Sarm said, before I saw his post. You'll never hear a mainstream hip hop artist complain about White folks listening to their music because it's a requirement that your music is able to appeal to them (the majority race of the US and Western world) if you want to go big.

True, you won't hear too many mainstream artists get upset at white people buying their music. It'd be career suicide in most cases...you don't bite the hand that feeds you.

But what you *will* hear is devoted hiphop fans getting angry at white people for acting like Macklemore is a revolutionary artist...or worse, seeing white people enjoy 90s gangsta rap that many of them no doubt crapped all over when it first came out. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying any of this is fair, but from my perspective I find it so weird to see Snoop and Dr Dre and Ice Cube in family friendly sitcoms and movies today after being told by white people all throughout my teen years that these guys were horrible, immoral people that were causing the collapse of the black community.

Fact is, the white people who were saying that stuff and the white people we see enjoying 90s hip hop today may not even be the same people. But I think it's naive to think there isn't at least *some* overlap.

there definitely is hip hop that's not really made with white people in mind - possibly even most hip hop

there's also a line when it comes to appreciation vs appropriation, but simply listening to it doesn't cross that line.

when it comes to white rappers, the line is a little more blurry, but it's pretty clear that Eminem, Macklemore, and the Beastie Boys (as much as I dislike the latter two) are integrating their own cultures into the music.

Iggy Azalea, meanwhile, a white girl from Australia, is pretty clearly trying to imitate a black southern US accent and phrasing when she raps. the general consensus among people who know about this stuff is that Iggy Azalea is firmly in the territory of appropriation
---

I'm happy to see that you're realizing why SJWism is a dangerous disease, pinky.
---

Good music is good music.

That's all there is to it.
---

averagejoel posted...

there definitely is hip hop that's not really made with white people in mind - possibly even most hip hop

there's also a line when it comes to appreciation vs appropriation, but simply listening to it doesn't cross that line.

when it comes to white rappers, the line is a little more blurry, but it's pretty clear that Eminem, Macklemore, and the Beastie Boys (as much as I dislike the latter two) are integrating their own cultures into the music.

Iggy Azalea, meanwhile, a white girl from Australia, is pretty clearly trying to imitate a black southern US accent and phrasing when she raps. the general consensus among people who know about this stuff is that Iggy Azalea is firmly in the territory of appropriation

no, that is lunacy. copying an accent or a delivery style is never cultural appropriation.
---

pinky0926 posted...

Certain music genres require strong cultural elements to make it work. As soon as you start having to fake an accent or pretend to be something you're not in order to make it work, it comes across as pretty disingenuous at best.

This is one of the two main reasons I can't stand Meghan Trainor. Lol.

SArm_v2_0 posted...

But what you *will* hear is devoted hiphop fans getting angry at white people for acting like Macklemore is a revolutionary artist

sounds remarkably similar to certain fans of various geek culture being angry at new fans of a more surface form of geek culture (ex: board game fans vs the influx of people who love catan; old star wars fans vs the people who enjoy the new movies; etc forever)

SArm_v2_0 posted...

Fact is, the white people who were saying that stuff and the white people we see enjoying 90s hip hop today may not even be the same people. But I think it's naive to think there isn't at least *some* overlap.

there probably is, but assuming they're the same people is the kind of mistake made by basement-dwelling turbovirgins. it's an assumed hostility that pretty much automatically puts the person on the wrong side of the territory; instead of crusading for justice they're just gatekeeping and trying to make themselves the decider of who is or isn't a real fan.

i just tend to think that media produced by artists for mass consumption is generally not something worth getting upset over. it's all a transaction for money. if someone has a worthwhile opinion about a thing, i enjoy talking about it; if their opinion sucks or is boring, i don't and change the subject. them having an opinion--even if they're massive hypocrites--doesn't really hurt me, you know?

i don't expect hip hop fans or geeks or whoever to embrace the new, much-less-devoted, obviously flighty adherents to their media with open arms and excitement that their media is getting some attention. i just expect them to not be dicks.
---

FLUFFYGERM posted...

averagejoel posted...

there definitely is hip hop that's not really made with white people in mind - possibly even most hip hop

there's also a line when it comes to appreciation vs appropriation, but simply listening to it doesn't cross that line.

when it comes to white rappers, the line is a little more blurry, but it's pretty clear that Eminem, Macklemore, and the Beastie Boys (as much as I dislike the latter two) are integrating their own cultures into the music.

Iggy Azalea, meanwhile, a white girl from Australia, is pretty clearly trying to imitate a black southern US accent and phrasing when she raps. the general consensus among people who know about this stuff is that Iggy Azalea is firmly in the territory of appropriation

no, that is lunacy. copying an accent or a delivery style is never cultural appropriation.

this guy has a point though:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhL8AJng0os

"Iggy Azalea is a minstrel that couldn't be arsed to black up"

"If you went to an Indian restaurant and the waiter was white, and for a little bit of authenticity he said [imitates stereotypical Indian] 'would you like a poppadum' "
---

Asherlee10 posted...

Sad_Face posted...

My culture is one of the most homogeneous and creatively restrictive ones around. If I felt bad enough to not listen to any song to avoid cultural appropriation, I'd have to slash out 100% of my library right now.

What's your culture?

Black culture! On a small island in the Caribbean!

I could rant about this, but I'll keep it relegated to music. In fact, I'll bring up our 2015 carnival parade, practically every troupe was playing the same blasted song (Destra's Lucy) to tramp down the road with. And half of the music played on the radio (that's not straight hip hop) sound the same. You could say this is just me not liking the genre, and it partially is, but some of this stuff hasn't evolved at all in the past 15 years. Music is an art, but in order to bring in new ideas, you need exposure to new music and the only thing our culture is exposed to (music wise) is hip hop and whatever new mainstream song (that is authorized as enjoyable for black people) is out.

So you'll (probably) never see someone like Nujabes come out from us, who can integrate Hip hop with so many other different genres, as we inherently stifle deviation from the norm when producers like him have constantly listen to new music wherever and whenever they can find it. And so music as popular as house or trance music (in the stateside) is completely foreign to down here.
---

You know you're from Kentucky when...

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

Whiskey (bourbon for me)

---

Exactly what is an 'SJW' supposed to be? I've only seen it used by far-right circles like Stormfront and Breitbart when they need a blanket pejorative term to encompass everything remotely related to socially liberal politics or civil rights causes.

I don't think I have ever in my lifetime encountered a so-called SJW. The only people I've known to go on the soap box are purely of the socially conservative and fundamentalist variety.

StridentArremer posted...

Exactly what is an 'SJW' supposed to be? I've only seen it used by far-right circles like Stormfront and Breitbart when they need a blanket pejorative term to encompass everything remotely related to socially liberal politics or civil rights causes.

I don't think I have ever in my lifetime encountered a so-called SJW. The only people I've known to go on the soap box are purely of the socially conservative and fundamentalist variety.

I'd say at this point it's just a perjorative for "anyone who I deem has thrown away reason because their feelings were hurt, usually over an imagined hurt rather than a real one". Obviously that changes depending on the point of view of whoever says it.
---