Board 8 > Star Wars The Last Jedi discussion (SPOILERS)

(+) Yeah! (+)

I'd be okay with a Rey/Kylo kind of tragic romance thing. He'd keep trying to turn her to his side, she'd fail to do the same and ultimately have to kill him. I dig it.

Could be kinda similar to Jaina/Jacen Solo from the EU
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Initial thoughts

Unsure if I liked it or not.
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AquaArcane posted...

Oh yeah, I didn't get Holdo's plotline either. I thought she was going to turn out to be a spy for the First Order or something, but nope. She was just a regular ol' Rebel hero.

I think she was there to help evolve Poe from gung-ho space ace to a more mature leader, and also to help give weight to her awesome suicide scene. I'm not sure if those things justified an extra 15 minutes of screen time, but whatev.
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Currently I have 3 extremely minor nitpicks about Episode 8. Some of which are holdovers from episode 7.

I'll have to do a more complete write up of my thoughts tomorrow if I can find time, but suffice to say I loved this movie. The way it subverted expectations was refreshing and the way it addressed/resolved (some of) the issues from episode 7 was great. Meanwhile it managed to convey tremendous respect to Star Wars as a whole.

I probably wont see it again until Tuesday which gives me a few days to digest what I just witnessed.

Without getting into too much though I do want to say how pleased I am with how Kylo's plot line was handled. I was worried after watching 7 that they were going to try to redeem him. But 2 years ago I decided I very much did not want that. I wanted the act of having killed his father to have cemented him wholly towards the dark side. I was going to have some major issues if after all the han-murdering they were going to come back and say "yayyy he's a good guy now! yippee!". But I am very grateful that they did not do that. They swerved dangerously close, and they make me question how much of his "inner conflict" was legitimate, or if it was perhaps all faked from the beginning of 8 for the benefit of convincing Snoke that he (kylo) was still being manipulated by him (snoke). Snoke was so convinced that he was reading Kylo's true emotions. And so I was going into this hoping that he would kill snoke and rise up to take his place.

....but now I realllllly hope they don't redeem him next movie anyways. That would feel so trite.
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Porg were awesome
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The animals were cute and I thought the humor was mostly on-point (Mark Hamill fucking murdered his lines, funny ones especially). I think there were some times where they stretched too far with the jokes, like when Kylo/Rey were having a dramatic Force meeting, and she's all "ummm can you put a shirt on please." Scenes like that are probably a good time to put the gags on hold.

Overall, my thoughts are still really scrambled and I left the theater an hour ago. I went into TFA with really low expectations because of the Prequels. Once it surpassed them, I raised expectations for this film, and I can't help but feel disappointed. I've got two years to take the stick out my ass, but I'm just not feeling that excited for EpIX.
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A few moments of free time finally...

I liked the movie a great deal. I think I like TFA a bit more.

The Holdo stuff seemed like we didn't need it. Just make her an obvious hero and let her be a hero. The middle of the movie spent a lot of time making us wonder what side everyone is really on - which was good, it's just that the actual mechanics of the Holdo stuff weren't very well done. Like, Poe is an incredibly reckless guy who will use whatever tactics he needs to accomplish what he wants and he is skilled at doing so... why just try to make him quietly sit by a post? only to tell him the entire plan later anyway?

I did like the ideas of eliminating our preconceived notions of the Star Wars universe, be it Kylo or Luke or Yoda saying it. In a good way, the movie seemed to grapple with itself. I think we still see the usual sith villainy, jedi heroics, hopeful rebel movement stalked down by the evil empire/order. Kind of like a magic trick... which hand is the ball in? Not the first hand, so it has to be the second hand. And then it isn't in that hand either.. so what the hell??? oh it was in the first hand all along.

So I think a re-watch is in order (obviously). Does the middle of the movie hold up now that I know the whole point is to make it seem like every piece on the board is meant to be questioned?

Luke was perfect. Luke's been my favorite and I was really curious what they'd do with him, and I think even my highest hopes were exceeded.

Finn continued to be strong. BDT's character was perfect and his acting was perfect. Rose was good. I didn't think I liked the animals/casino stuff as much as other themes/plots in the movie. Finn/Rey kinda of washes away after those two can't stop thinking/talking about each other for half of the movie. It seemed a bit tidy BUT I think it's a bit better setup for both characters going forward.

Snoke was OK. I feel like overall he's a letdown and without a real explanation about his origin/identity, I'm not sure what to think of him. Where was he during the OT? Is he Sidious? Or some Sidious level force wielder / sith lord that was biding his time, some apprentice to Sidious, what? I'd rather have spent 15 minutes on him and his guards and the knights of ren instead of sewing doubt about Holdo.

Yoda was glorious.

The Porg were great little things to give Chewy something to do without being some major distraction. Just cute little things that Chewy needed in his life. And they appeal to kids without being anything significant in the movie.

Rey/Ren was done very well. I do agree that the shirtless scene humor wasn't a good fit.

That we essentially end with a smuggling vessel with a couple dozen people left seems a little dire. I get that they send a signal out to all rebel friendly people, but, the First Order has the resources to make a planet that shoots solar systems.

I went to a Fan Experience event that had free trading cards (not very good) and free popcorn and for being the premiere showing, they had a 10 minute featurette about the music composition in the series so far, and how Williams used a lot of existing music woven and hidden in episode 8. I think one part had the modern orchestra playing and then it cut to the footage of the 70s London orchestra playing for the original, that was awesome. And then the theater lights went down as some studio meters were pushed up and a song was played... it was a very cool thing.

I thought BB8 was gonna fight that black droid. they gotta throw down.

oh and the Phasma "let's kill these guys slowly but really just cut their heads off because we need to drag this out sharks-with-frickin-lazer-beams style was ehhhhh. I'm not gonna spend much time hating it, tho.
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Oh by far my favorite gag that made me laugh the most

"Reach out to the Force"
*Rey physically reaches out*
*Luke starts tickling her with the feather*

The second part is what really did it for me, had they just stopped at her reaching out then it would have been like eh
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Forceful_Dragon posted...

....but now I realllllly hope they don't redeem him next movie anyways. That would feel so trite.

I feel like they made it clear that they weren't going to attempt to redeem him when Leia says she knows her son is gone (although I guess Luke saying "no one is truly gone" might plant a seed of "hope" for that), and Luke explicitly tells Kylo he's not there to turn him.
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The Phasma execution sequence grated me mainly because they were right next to them pre-blast then all of a sudden they are fucking miles away from them post blast but all able to walk back to them nice and uniformly. Like they should be completely scattered or still in close proximity. I'm sure there were worst suspensions of disbelief but that one just stuck with me.

Enjoyed the movie as a whole even though large chunks of the plot just felt unnecessary/weird (casino part and the slow chase). So I guess the Jedi sections kinda propped everything else up.

I liked the slow chase. Once the rebels realized they couldn't jump to light speed, they were kinda screwed. I just don't think the rebel command came across as desperate and exhausted as they should... think about that BSG episode in comparison. I guess in retrospect, Holdo and Leia are confident because they have a plan in place, whereas Poe is desperate due to his ignorance of said plan. feeling better about the Holdo stuff, just thinking about it. Still it might be a bit better to like, tell him earlier. I get that they can't reveal the plan to the audience due to Finn/Rose. so, definitely some plot structure problems with all of that. but the gist of the slow chase, I liked.

With Luke's lightsaber being busted, I wonder what kind of replacement Rey will fashion.
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

Initial thoughts

Unsure if I liked it or not.

This is still my feeling, BTW.

I know it's probably shallow but the lack of a proper lightsaber duel is kind of a sticking point for me.
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so han dead luke dead leia dead is chewy the last man standing from the OT?
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Also Ben's decision to turn felt so damn weak.

For comparison: Anakin have visions of his wife dying in child birth, and he had earlier seen his mother dying in his dreams and failed to save her. Sidious had planted the idea in his head that he could create life and cheat death to save his wife, whereas Yoda basically gave him nothing. Mace Windu was ready to execute Sidious even though it was supposedly not the Jedi way. He had plenty of reasons to turn.

Ben turned because... his master was standing over him with an ignited lightsaber. And he decides this is enough of a justification to destroy the entire Jedi order and absolutely loath Luke for the rest of his existence.
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FFDragon posted...

so han dead luke dead leia dead is chewy the last man standing from the OT?

Uh, excuse me. I believe a certain Admiral Ackbar was there.

Edit: He was actually killed along with everyone on the bridge save Leia. DAMN YOU FIRST ORDER.
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LeonhartFour posted...

Also, I think after this movie, Finn is definitely my favorite new character. I loved him in this movie.

he is the boy
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Ben had been mostly turned already and it's why Luke had the lightsaber out in the first place. We don't see what Snoke did and that's definitely a dropped ball.
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I wish the ninth film would somehow move beyond the Empire/First Order vs. Rebellion/Resistance dynamic and we get the Knights of Ren vs. Rey and a New Jedi Order.

I very much doubt it will happen but it'd be nice.
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I imagine it'll be "all the people of the resistance rally around the tiny rebellion". We're essentially locked into that, right?
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I kind of like the whole "Nah fuck the Jedi" mentality. Just be one with the Force.

Although Luke did say Rey is the last Jedi so I guess not
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Grand Kirby posted...

Also, what was up with the milking scene?

Like... really?

sometimes ya just gotta drink up
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milk scene was terrific
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Also the arms dealer stuff felt pretty shoe-horned.
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Man, it's gonna be such a messy post when I finally have the time to projectile vomit my thoughts here.

I will say one thing right now: if Mark Hamill doesn't get an Academy Award nod, I'll be fucking done. Star Wars is the furthest thing from Oscar bait, but the man reprised a character not seen in 35 years - the character that typecasted him - and crushed it harder than I think anyone anticipated.
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

Man, it's gonna be such a messy post when I finally have the time to projectile vomit my thoughts here.

I will say one thing right now: if Mark Hamill doesn't get an Academy Award nod, I'll be fucking done. Star Wars is the furthest thing from Oscar bait, but the man reprised a character not seen in 35 years - the character that typecasted him - and crushed it harder than I think anyone anticipated.

Mark was good but he wasn't THAT good.
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Yea I wouldn't say Oscar but he was great
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I think he was better than Stallone when he got an Oscar nod for Creed.
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Oh and man fuck Rey/Finn/Rose whatever potential love triangles, get someone to love you like Poe loves BB-8. That shit made me so happy at the end with them joining again.
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

Man, it's gonna be such a messy post when I finally have the time to projectile vomit my thoughts here.

I will say one thing right now: if Mark Hamill doesn't get an Academy Award nod, I'll be fucking done. Star Wars is the furthest thing from Oscar bait, but the man reprised a character not seen in 35 years - the character that typecasted him - and crushed it harder than I think anyone anticipated.

I felt like he would be up for the task heading into the movie. He killed it but I didn't have any doubts tbh. I'd be happy if he won awards for the performance but I really don't worry about those sorts of things either way.
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Oh, and I don't mean he deserves to win the award outright-no-questions-asked, but just to get nominated. They nom like five guys a year, and I don't think it's a stretch to spend one on a legacy performance that happened to be this damn good.
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That moment when Luke and Leia finally see each other again almost brought a tear to my eye

Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher both deserve some kind of award
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Not gonna lie that moment was kind of tainted for me with "yo how the fuck he get there"

They obviously answer it later brilliantly but I was still in shock at that moment lol
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Luke and Leia reuniting was so damn good.
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Bane_Of_Despair posted...

Not gonna lie that moment was kind of tainted for me with "yo how the fuck he get there"

They obviously answer it later brilliantly but I was still in shock at that moment lol

I just presumed he repaired the fighter that he left submerged

He repaired it with Jedi powers
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Bane_Of_Despair posted...

I kind of like the whole "Nah fuck the Jedi" mentality. Just be one with the Force.

Also I loved this. Luke calling the Jedi vain for thinking the force belonged to them when it's so all-encompassing hit me like a truck, because it's so true.

And yeah my first thought with Holdo was "OK why did she not tell them the plan earlier". I'm usually OK at justifying would-be plotholes but I can't think my way around that one. That aside, the plot did do a good job of bucking expectations because she was absolutely set up as impotent and out-of-her-depth and unpleasantly snippy, someone for Poe to overcome and mutiny against. We've seen that plot before a bunch of times so they did well to subvert it. Maybe that plothole was worth it for that subversion.
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I just got back from the movie. The Luke projection scene near the end was amazing. Kylo Ren respects the threat Luke poses so much that he puts the entire attack on hold until Luke is dealt with. Luke takes advantage of that to halt the attack without even being there.
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Why has no one else used a light speed kamikaze bomb before? You don't even need a living pilot, just rig the ship up with a broken down droid.
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Hux saying "do you think you got him" was hilarious

Hux was like a low-key MVP in this. He's such a snivelling little bastard. I feel like he's the Umbridge of Star Wars. Obviously less "obviously" evil than Voldemort/Palpatine/Snoke but somehow a more hateable character. I guess because there's no mystique, he's just a jumped-up prick
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

Why has no one else used a light speed kamikaze bomb before? You don't even need a living pilot, just rig the ship up with a broken down droid.

Hell just attach a hyperdrive to a brick and use that instead of proton torpedos.
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Yeah. As much as everybody loves that scene, it kind of was the worst part of the movie for me. Not because of the scene itself, but the implications of it. How can you justify any battle before or from now on where that isn't used as a weapon?
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Agreed. That scene was the only one that drew a gasp from my theater, but man, at what cost to the logic of the Star Wars universe. Seriously, every downed X-Wing in ANH should have just hyper-kamikaze'd into the Death Star. All they needed was one!
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The trillions of dollars it costs and how it's a self destruct? Like yea sure if you really pick it apart in sure there's been plenty of battles in the past where a last ditch effort like that could have still worked but there's still a decent amount involved
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In EU books they basically explain that hyperdrives will not function properly if they detect the mass of an object that you would collide into.

This led to Interdictor Cruisers, which were specialized shits that projected a false gravity well. This would fool enemy hyperdrives and would either pull them out of hyperspace, or would prevent them from making the jump to light speed.

I think I prefer the EU mechanics, because as you said the implication is that this would be the most effective way to take down capital ships. Especially if smaller ships can so completely demolish larger ships.
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Bane_Of_Despair posted...

The trillions of dollars it costs

Not sure I follow. Every ship in Star Wars has a hyperdrive, even single-manned ones like X-Wings. The Last Jedi basically demonstrated that any ship traveling in hyperdrive retains its physical properties, which means that an X-Wing is a 10,000 pound mass traveling at 186,000 miles per second (if not faster). All you need is one to down the Death Star.
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Bane_Of_Despair posted...

The trillions of dollars it costs and how it's a self destruct? Like yea sure if you really pick it apart in sure there's been plenty of battles in the past where a last ditch effort like that could have still worked but there's still a decent amount involved

Nah.

Consider that every large ship already has a functional hyperdrive. So even in my attach-a-hypderive-to-a-rock scenario you are still trading a hypderdrive for a hyperdrive functional ship.

And since they established in episode 7 that if you are going lightspeed you can go through shields... Well it's pretty damn OP.
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I think it worked because she had so little fuel left that an attempted lightspeed jump caused her to go into lightspeed and immediately exit right into Snoke's ship.
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Bane_Of_Despair posted...

The trillions of dollars it costs and how it's a self destruct? Like yea sure if you really pick it apart in sure there's been plenty of battles in the past where a last ditch effort like that could have still worked but there's still a decent amount involved

It doesn't really feel like much of a cost. The cost of one ship and let's say at least one pilot (who could easily be a droid) in order to take down most of a fleet and the personnel on it (which often contains the vast majority of military leaders on them for some reason)? To me that doesn't scream "last-ditch maneuver we can only use in the absolute most desperate of situations", logically speaking there should be ships hurtling into targets all the time. Hell, just build glorified missiles with hyperdrive technology for the same effect. It'd be more effective than those dumb bombers in the beginning of the movie that cost so much more for the Resistance.

I mean, the writers just opened up a box that I'm sure they're going to completely ignore but you really can't. It makes no sense at all if something like that is possible to not use it all the time, and it would suck the fun out of the outer-space dogfights the series is based on if it was. What a mistake.
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Yea every ship does have it so I guess it isn't that rare of a commodity.

Well when it boils down to it why weren't we thinking of it until this precise moment? Like what was stopping it from happening before and her being the FIRST one to do it then? Not counting EU I guess. Now it happens and everyone is going "well of COURSE everyone should just be hyper driving into enemies left and right!" Nobody thought of this obvious thing before?
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THEDavyJones posted...

I think it worked because she had so little fuel left that an attempted lightspeed jump caused her to go into lightspeed and immediately exit right into Snoke's ship.

Let's just go with that then? Seems the best way for everyone to not have to worry about this issue at all
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I'd also like to point out that the reason she was able to get into position to kamikaze her ship was because they deliberately ignored her to continue shooting at the lifeboats. I'm sure they would be able to blow any kamikazing pilots out of the sky if necessary.
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