Current Events > This is the amount of money stolen in the United States each year.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Sources:
http://www.nelp.org/content/uploads/2015/03/BrokenLawsReport2009.pdf?nocdn=1

http://tinyurl.com/y8ssubl9 (FBI link)

This is not original content by me.

It shows me one thing: we do not penalize violations of salary laws nearly enough. Personally, I've come to believe that employers are among the few subgroups who are actually deterred by severe punishments. Applying long-term imprisonment for violation of salary laws is likely to wipe it out almost entirely.
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So what you're saying is that if we raise the minimum wage, even more money will be stolen by minimum wage employees?
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PoopPotato posted...

So what you're saying is that if we raise the minimum wage, even more money will be stolen by minimum wage employees?

From.
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PoopPotato posted...

So what you're saying is that if we raise the minimum wage, even more money will be stolen by minimum wage employees?

Apt username.

where's the category for taxes????
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Wait, I just glanced at your info graphic and wanted to troll.

This is the amount being stolen from employees?
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

where's the category for taxes????

What?

PoopPotato posted...

Wait, I just glanced at your info graphic and wanted to troll.

This is the amount being stolen from employees?

Yes.
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And it'll probably get worse because our government bends over for the corporations.
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Elegantly underlines the point that America's brand of freedom isn't for the individual - it's for the employer.
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JE19426 posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

where's the category for taxes????

What?

It's proudclad. One of his gimmicks is hating taxes. Not worth your time debating.
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I can believe it.

But I would be interested in also seeing theft by employees from employers, including stuff like unapproved overtime and fake sick days. Not that it would justify anything. I'm just curious which amounts to more.
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

where's the category for taxes????

You are the worst.

DevsBro posted...

But I would be interested in also seeing theft by employees from employers

You are seeing that. It is included in larceny.

DevsBro posted...

including stuff like unapproved overtime and fake sick days.

These aren't really possible to track, but given that unapproved overtime is fully within the power of employers to refuse to reimburse and fake sick days have largely been removed from the equation by the modern employer model of a universal time off pool, they'd be quite insignificant.
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JE19426 posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

where's the category for taxes????

What?

https://www.publicintegrity.org/2017/07/19/21011/fraud-and-billing-mistakes-cost-medicare-and-taxpayers-tens-billions-last-year

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-audit-army/u-s-army-fudged-its-accounts-by-trillions-of-dollars-auditor-finds-idUSKCN10U1IG

The government is the biggest thief of them all
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It's proudclad. One of his gimmicks is hating taxes. Not worth your time debating.

It's not like he doesn't have a point. If I stole $100 from you and used it to build a nice bridge for the public to use, that still doesn't make it not theft. It's also not really any different if I'm some petty thief sneaking it from your wallet or if I'm a large organization telling you you'll give me your money or very bad things will happen to you. Hell, that's literally a gang charging protection money.
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I'm no conspiracy theorist, and only glanced at the attached report, but having worked jobs since 1994, I can tell you first hand, employers overall don't care for their employees. I have had some good employers and bad employers. And while infractions like on the report have been very minimal over the years for me personally, never be under the illusion your employer is out for your benefit. They need you only as much as you need a paycheck, and they will use a person up as best they can.

Again that may vary from employer to employer, but overall I have found it to be the case.

I also find the staggering difference in employer theft over employee theft surprising. But then again that could just be that employers get away with it more, and so are not as publicized as when an employee steals from employers.
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DevsBro posted...

It's proudclad. One of his gimmicks is hating taxes. Not worth your time debating.

It's not like he doesn't have a point. If I stole $100 from you and used it to build a nice bridge for the public to use, that still doesn't make it not theft. It's also not really any different if I'm some petty thief sneaking it from your wallet or if I'm a large organization telling you you'll give me your money or very bad things will happen to you. Hell, that's literally a gang charging protection money.

On the otherhand, if you saw someone drowning and just walked past them because jumping in the water would ruin your $100 jacket, you'd probably be an asshole.
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DevsBro posted...

It's proudclad. One of his gimmicks is hating taxes. Not worth your time debating.

It's not like he doesn't have a point. If I stole $100 from you and used it to build a nice bridge for the public to use, that still doesn't make it not theft. It's also not really any different if I'm some petty thief sneaking it from your wallet or if I'm a large organization telling you you'll give me your money or very bad things will happen to you. Hell, that's literally a gang charging protection money.

I'm referring more to the egregious waste of hundreds of billions of dollars per year
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Seems unfair to include rest break violations and not actually factor in the trillions of dollars stolen by employees when they're on the clock and not actually working, like many of us here who are being paid while we post on GameFAQs.

I get that the target groups are quite different (i.e. if you have a job that actually allows you to post here, you're likely not in the categories that are being reported in the study), but it's still a pretty biased report set out to make labor seem like it's being exploited (which is not surprising from NELP), which is not really the case in 2017.
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On the otherhand, if you saw someone drowning and just walked past them because jumping in the water would ruin your $100 jacket, you'd probably be an a******.

True enough.
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I fear for this accusation even on a personal level so I pretty much don't let employees talk to me without noting that they should earn time for it
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The Admiral posted...

Seems unfair to include rest break violations and not actually factor in the trillions of dollars stolen by employees when they're on the clock and not actually working, like many of us here who are being paid while we post on GameFAQs.

I get that the target groups are quite (i.e. if you have a job that actually allows you to post here, you're likely not in the categories that are being reported in the study), but it's still a pretty biased report set out to make labor seem like it's being exploited (which is not surprising from NELP), which is not really the case in 2017.

I've certainly had jobs where non-work related internet time or phone time was cracked down on hard. And others where it's pretty lenient and as long as you got your work done. What's the difference between internet time and water cooler talk, you know? If they could factor in jobs where employees were violating the employer guidelines about down time then I'd agree they should be factored in.
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prettyprincess posted...

people generally like that I want to see them compensated, yes

Actually, never mind, I misread your post. Sorry.
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The Admiral posted...

trillions of dollars stolen by employees when they're on the clock and not actually working

The nature of this alleged and unsourced 'theft' depends on employment contract.

My employment contract specifically stipulates that I am allowed to access the internet for personal, non-work use, while working. The expectations of employees at my workplace, which is OT-exempt, is that we will meet the deadlines given, and nobody gives a shit how.

Realistically, though, the idea that a typical employee will work for 8 hours straight aside from a lunch break is fundamentally not viable. Humans are not assembly-line robots. And we are rarely assigned a full 8 hours of work on a given day (or a long-term project that requires 8 hours of work).

Our pay is for our presence and availability when the shit hits the fan and we need to get it done, not to specifically complete calculations/assemble items/review legal documents/whatever the hell you do for exactly 8 hours all day.

This is understood. It's also understood that employers will follow minimum wage laws, pay for OT that is assigned to employees, and give the legal breaks they are required to give.

One side is following the contract. One side is not, and they face minimal fines for it, which incentivizes further violations. Breaking the contract as an employee has a clearly tangible risk: loss of employment. There is no equivalent risk to the employer.
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What about money stolen by the police and that's virtually impossible to retrieve because you have to prove it's not at all intended for a crime?
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gunplagirl posted...

What about money stolen by the police and that's virtually impossible to retrieve because you have to prove it's not at all intended for a crime?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/23/cops-took-more-stuff-from-people-than-burglars-did-last-year/

$5 billion in 2014. Less than all theft, more than burglary.
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Darkman124 posted...

gunplagirl posted...

What about money stolen by the police and that's virtually impossible to retrieve because you have to prove it's not at all intended for a crime?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/23/cops-took-more-stuff-from-people-than-burglars-did-last-year/

$5 billion in 2014. Less than all theft, more than burglary.

And people justify this. Awful.
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People will argue against rectifying this solely because anyone they consider left wing is in favor of it.
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Darkman124 posted...

gunplagirl posted...

What about money stolen by the police and that's virtually impossible to retrieve because you have to prove it's not at all intended for a crime?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/23/cops-took-more-stuff-from-people-than-burglars-did-last-year/

$5 billion in 2014. Less than all theft, more than burglary.

Is that the civil forfeiture thing that John Oliver brought up a while ago?
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scar the 1 posted...

Is that the civil forfeiture thing that John Oliver brought up a while ago?

Yes, that is the term for it.
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I think the work productivity arguments are interesting, but I also consider myself lucky to always have had jobs that allowed a massive amount of leniency. I try to pass that onto my own employees now because I think it was valuable in making me continue to work within a field I would otherwise never care about, rather than slowly lose interest and patience, bleeding whatever I could from the company.

Of course, being that I work within the University's confines, our down times are more expected than not and we largely just exist to help stragglers for 70% of the year.
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Kineth posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Is that the civil forfeiture thing that John Oliver brought up a while ago?

Yes, that is the term for it.

I prefer 'theft'
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Kineth posted...

People will argue against rectifying this solely because anyone they consider left wing is in favor of it.

Fine, I'll take the bait.
How, exactly, can this even be enforced, without making life even worse for the employee?

Darkman124 posted...

One side is following the contract. One side is not, and they face minimal fines for it, which incentivizes further violations. Breaking the contract as an employee has a clearly tangible risk: loss of employment. There is no equivalent risk to the employer.

yes, I was going to say that it seems odd to compare the two things, since the obvious response from an employer would be to fire someone who wasn't working enough, or at least to bake in the fact that your employees will not be 100% productive all day into their pay.

If someone is paying you less than minimum wage you don't have much recourse. In fact, in my state, for the employer to get in trouble for a violation like this, you need to show that they did it intentionally. But there is also no requirement for them to furnish you a pay stub, so it is essentially impossible to do that.
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Questionmarktarius posted...

Kineth posted...

People will argue against rectifying this solely because anyone they consider left wing is in favor of it.

Fine, I'll take the bait.
How, exactly, can this even be enforced, without making life even worse for the employee?

Eh, I wasn't looking to bait anyone, but whatever. There shouldn't be the base assumption that employees are basically slaves to their employers.
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shockthemonkey posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

Kineth posted...

People will argue against rectifying this solely because anyone they consider left wing is in favor of it.

Fine, I'll take the bait.
How, exactly, can this even be enforced, without making life even worse for the employee?

Harsh as fuck penalties against employers

But, how do you even prove it's happening, without Orwellian surveillance and accounting?

Kineth posted...

Eh, I wasn't looking to bait anyone, but whatever. There shouldn't be the base assumption that employees are basically slaves to their employers.

In the end, it's still voluntary. If you're being fucked over by your employer, why are you still working there?

Questionmarktarius posted...

How, exactly, can this even be enforced, without making life even worse for the employee?

required pay stubs that employees can submit as evidence when filing a complaint--and equivalent penalties for refusing to follow a law requiring pay stubs be given to employees.

imprisonment in maximum security prison for a minimum of five years for a violation.

wage theft would drop to near zero immediately.

Questionmarktarius posted...

But, how do you even prove it's happening, without Orwellian surveillance and accounting?

employees should have orwellian surveillance of their employers. what they submit to government to charge employers with crimes should be up to them. giving this power to the powerless does not harm the employer. unless they're guilty.
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Questionmarktarius posted...

Kineth posted...

People will argue against rectifying this solely because anyone they consider left wing is in favor of it.

Fine, I'll take the bait.
How, exactly, can this even be enforced, without making life even worse for the employee?

Stronger unions. The Swedish model.
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Questionmarktarius posted...

In the end, it's still voluntary. If you're being fucked over by your employer, why are you still working there?

If the culture, as you supposed, looks to screw the employee at every turn, why is the onus of responsibility being passed on to the worker?
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Questionmarktarius posted...

In the end, it's still voluntary. If you're being f***ed over by your employer, why are you still working there?

because you have to put food on the table, and the lack of government enforcement of its own laws ensures that the risk of taking a new job does not come with the reward of better treatment.

what's being called for here is improved enforcement (and harsher penalties) of existing laws that are being broken. that's all.
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I am assuming this is just raw money and the robber category does not count the value of stolen goods like cell phones or Nikes?

Because there are a lot of cell phones, Nikes and shit stolen in bad neighborhoods/cities
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

where's the category for taxes????

Came here to say this.
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good, informative topic. didn't know wage theft was this extreme. tag
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Oshawottownage posted...

I am assuming this is just raw money and the robber category does not count the value of stolen goods like cell phones or Nikes?

Because there are a lot of cell phones, Nikes and shit stolen in bad neighborhoods/cities

you are incorrect

though it is possible they are not catching everything that is stolen if it isn't reported, which much petty crime is not. I didn't look closely at their methodology but they specifically mention property value in their footnotes
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Kineth posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

In the end, it's still voluntary. If you're being fucked over by your employer, why are you still working there?

If the culture, as you supposed, looks to screw the employee at every turn, why is the onus of responsibility being passed on the worker?

Employees get screwed because some employees are willing to be screwed.

This used to be the whole point of unions, before they priced themselves into near-extinction.

Darkman124 posted...

required pay stubs that employees can submit as evidence when filing a complaint--and equivalent penalties for refusing to follow a law requiring pay stubs be given to employees.

How then, do you prevent time-card fraud (on both sides) without ankle-bracelets or something?

FLUFFYGERM posted...

JE19426 posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

where's the category for taxes????

What?

https://www.publicintegrity.org/2017/07/19/21011/fraud-and-billing-mistakes-cost-medicare-and-taxpayers-tens-billions-last-year

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-audit-army/u-s-army-fudged-its-accounts-by-trillions-of-dollars-auditor-finds-idUSKCN10U1IG

The government is the biggest thief of them all

It would make sense to go after the biggest offenders first. But when it's government vs corporations there are some people who will always see corporations as the bigger problem regardless of the circumstances.
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Questionmarktarius posted...

Employees get screwed because some employees are willing to be screwed.

And because it's not very risky for employers to do it.
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