Current Events > House just pass new tax bill.

(+) Yeah! (+)

FLUFFYGERM posted...

except the way CPS does things is basically the same as the scheme you want implemented at the federal level

the way CPS does things now was passed in august 2017 to deal with the school system's debt crisis (presumably a result of underfunding due to local property taxes not covering costs)

https://www.civicfed.org/civic-federation/blog/what-new-illinois-school-funding-formula-means-chicago-public-schools

so i have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.
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@Darkman124

https://www.illinoispolicy.org/democrats-fake-property-tax-freeze-wont-save-illinois-underwater-housing-market/

don't let some charts about home prices mislead you lol
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Questionmarktarius posted...

I suspect some sort of "matching" scheme intended to nudge districts into increasing property taxes, which just ended up backfiring spectacularly.

that's certainly possible, although i think we'd have to review the specific local property tax rates to confirm that

i don't know how much the rate varies between close-proximity regions.
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

@Darkman124

https://www.illinoispolicy.org/democrats-fake-property-tax-freeze-wont-save-illinois-underwater-housing-market/

don't let some charts about home prices mislead you lol

what about this conservative organization's blog post do you believe suggests IL home values are falling?
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Darkman124 posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

I suspect some sort of "matching" scheme intended to nudge districts into increasing property taxes, which just ended up backfiring spectacularly.

that's certainly possible, although i think we'd have to review the specific local property tax rates to confirm that

i don't know how much the rate varies between close-proximity regions.

It's also plausible that a "rich" district has a much easier time siphoning state funds for fancy new buildings.
Do anyone really believe that constructing those bigass suburban schools was funded locally?

Darkman124 posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

@Darkman124

https://www.illinoispolicy.org/democrats-fake-property-tax-freeze-wont-save-illinois-underwater-housing-market/

don't let some charts about home prices mislead you lol

what about this conservative organization's blog post do you believe suggests IL home values are falling?

I'm saying that home prices going up is not the entire picture, because there are other (more relevant) factors that play into the housing economy's health
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Darkman124 posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

except the way CPS does things is basically the same as the scheme you want implemented at the federal level

the way CPS does things now was passed in august 2017 to deal with the school system's debt crisis (presumably a result of underfunding due to local property taxes not covering costs)

https://www.civicfed.org/civic-federation/blog/what-new-illinois-school-funding-formula-means-chicago-public-schools

so i have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.

the entire way they raise funding and have the authority to raise property taxes to secure more funding, all while spending an exorbitant amount per student on shitty education and pocketing the rest. that's what you want at a federal level too. with other people's money being redistributed so that everyone has "education parity"

where education parity is just an "equal" amount of funding, as if that's all that matters.

where did i go wrong
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

I'm saying that home prices going up is not the entire picture, because there are other (more relevant) factors that play into the housing economy's health

i think you're just making up concepts to suit whatever definition of 'healthy economy' you want to believe.

IL housing prices are stable, and according to zillow, rising. schiller suggests they dropped a bit over the last year, by about 1%.

there are fewer sales happening, but not at suddenly falling prices. sellers are just as capable of not selling as buyers are willing to not buy.
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

the entire way they raise funding and have the authority to raise property taxes to secure more funding, all while spending an exorbitant amount per student on s***ty education and pocketing the rest. that's what you want at a federal level too. with other people's money being redistributed so that everyone has "education parity"

where education parity is just an "equal" amount of funding, as if that's all that matters.

where did i go wrong

the part where you tried to blame student performance on a funding process that was approved a couple months ago mainly to address existing debt

you'd just be cherrypicking a system that didn't benefit from spending more if you were simply saying "they spend a lot and it doesn't help" and we'd have some common ground there because parental help time is really important

but you are overeager to be right--or of late, to get a punch in--and instead tried to make this about the policy preference i have which is unrelated to CPS' student performance.
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Darkman124 posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

I'm saying that home prices going up is not the entire picture, because there are other (more relevant) factors that play into the housing economy's health

i think you're just making up concepts to suit whatever definition of 'healthy economy' you want to believe.

IL housing prices are stable, and according to zillow, rising. schiller suggests they dropped a bit over the last year, by about 1%.

there are fewer sales happening, but not at suddenly falling prices. sellers are just as capable of not selling as buyers are willing to not buy.

they are definitely not as capable of not selling. 1 in 6 home mortgages in Illinois is under water, and more are going to join that bunch as property taxes keep wrecking people. Sales are already declining. We are the state that has the most people leaving and the fewest new jobs being created. It's all a recipe for a fucking disaster, and some weirdness around some areas seeing home price increases doesn't change that.
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Darkman124 posted...

the part where you tried to blame student performance on a funding process that was approved a couple months ago mainly to address existing debt

uh CPS has had an exorbitant amount of funding for a long time, broseph

Darkman124 posted...

you'd just be cherrypicking a system that didn't benefit from spending more if you were simply saying "they spend a lot and it doesn't help" and we'd have some common ground there because parental help time is really important

oh okay so we can spend as much of other people's money as we want and see no net gain if parental help time isn't there?
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I love watching Darkman own Proudclad.
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

they are definitely not as capable of not selling. 1 in 6 home mortgages in Illinois is under water, and more are going to join that bunch as property taxes keep wrecking people. Sales are already declining. We are the state that has the most people leaving and the fewest new jobs being created. It's all a recipe for a f***ing disaster, and some weirdness around some areas seeing home price increases doesn't change that.

gonna have to ask you to source each of your claims

i dont have time to fact check each one and youve said a bunch of shit that was flat wrong in this topic

FLUFFYGERM posted...

oh okay so we can spend as much of other people's money as we want and see no net gain if parental help time isn't there?

it's amazing to me how you can only see things in black and white
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

where education parity is just an "equal" amount of funding, as if that's all that matters.

You seem to assume that even that won't get shit all over as "unfair" somehow.

Darkman124 posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

they are definitely not as capable of not selling. 1 in 6 home mortgages in Illinois is under water, and more are going to join that bunch as property taxes keep wrecking people. Sales are already declining. We are the state that has the most people leaving and the fewest new jobs being created. It's all a recipe for a f***ing disaster, and some weirdness around some areas seeing home price increases doesn't change that.

gonna have to ask you to source each of your claims

i dont have time to fact check each one and youve said a bunch of shit that was flat wrong in this topic

Sure.

Sources for "1 in 6 home mortgages in Illinois is under water"

http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/daily-southtown/opinion/ct-sta-berg-column-st-0609-20170608-story.html

"Seriously underwater. Some areas are drowning."

http://www.nwherald.com/2017/01/30/report-concludes-1-illinois-home-in-5-seriously-underwater/ajdl3t9/

This source has it as 1 in 5.

https://www.illinoispolicy.org/17-of-illinois-homes-are-seriously-underwater/

http://www.loopnorth.com/news/underwater0819.htm

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/realestate/20170609/CRED0701/170609872/chicago-leads-the-nation-in-underwater-homes

The most underwater state in the nation.

Sources for being the state with the most people leaving:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-illinois-population-decline-met-20161220-story.html

State with the fewest jobs being created (the severity depends on the source, but the general idea is that it's bad)

https://www.illinoispolicy.org/illinois-last-in-jobs-growth-first-in-manufacturing-losses-in-2016/
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/reboot-illinois/illinois-among-the-top-10_b_5610190.html

I already sourced the claim that house sales are slowing down.
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Questionmarktarius posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

where education parity is just an "equal" amount of funding, as if that's all that matters.

You seem to assume that even that won't get shit all over as "unfair" somehow.

i think a place where many of us can agree is that the biggest gap in student performance wrt wealth happens over the summer. no parents around to encourage summer reading/learning, none gets done.

idk how to resolve that though. so often it's not just "mom and dad work a lot of hours" but "dad's not in the picture and mom works 2x the hours to maintain some basic quality of life"
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Darkman124 posted...

it's amazing to me how you can only see things in black and white

don't you think that "every school needs to receive the exact same amount of funding" is seeing things in black and white?
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Darkman124 posted...

idk how to resolve that though. so often it's not just "mom and dad work a lot of hours" but "dad's not in the picture and mom works 2x the hours to maintain some basic quality of life"

Maybe we can start educating people on the merits of not having children until you can afford them and until you're in a committed marriage or permanent relationship.
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sktgamer_13dude posted...

I love watching Darkman own Proudclad.

OOOOHHHH, fluffygerm is Proudclad? goodness, it makes so much sense. i could have sworn he swore this board off in a temper tantrum not that long ago.
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Darkman124 posted...

i think a place where many of us can agree is that the biggest gap in student performance wrt wealth happens over the summer. no parents around to encourage summer reading/learning, none gets done.

I don't really see "summer tutors" as a thing the well-off and affluent really do, unless you're counting summer camp or European vacations or something.

That's not even what I was getting at, but maybe you know something I don't.

Didn't the House pass a healthcare bill simply because they knew it wouldn't pass the Senate? Is that basically what's happening here?
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

don't you think that "every school needs to receive the exact same amount of funding" is seeing things in black and white?

your words. mine are 'funding of schools should not be tied to value of neighborhood homes as that creates haves and have nots.'

as to IL, the high rate of underwater homes is not good, but the data you show indicates it's improving faster than the nation, and not getting worse. emigration rate of 0.2% isn't great either, but not terrible, and none of the data suggests homeowners--even the underwater ones--are pressured to sell, since being underwater doesn't mean you're underwater due to liens against your home. good number of 'em may have just bought at too high a price in the 2003-2007 period.

i appreciate you sourcing your data. state's facing some problems, but don't overstate their severity.

Questionmarktarius posted...

I don't really see "summer tutors" as a thing the well-off and affluent really do, unless you're counting summer camp or European vacations or something.

That's not even what I was getting at, but maybe you know something I don't.

was referring to general summer reading and this

http://www.readingrecovery.org/images/pdfs/Conferences/TLI15/Handouts/Summer_reading_loss_ch.pdf

i do generally think that this is the core problem at least for literacy, though making sure poor schools are appropriately supplied to be functional learning centers is still an issue, just not the only issue. i don't want to treat reading level as representative of the whole of early childhood education.
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

MysteryMan923 posted...

I just don't see the point is disincentivizing home ownership when we're already near record lows.

The powers that be want to render people poor and dependent. This is true of both the left and the right. Home ownership, growing your wealth, and being independent are antithetical to a big government's desire to control everyone and everything.

This is why both sides push legislation that hurts the middle class and class mobility.

I don't have to read through any more of this topic.

I'm not gonna find a post better than this.

It's kinda sat that people still aren't realizing that the left and right are the same fucking thing.
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Darkman124 posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

I don't really see "summer tutors" as a thing the well-off and affluent really do, unless you're counting summer camp or European vacations or something.

That's not even what I was getting at, but maybe you know something I don't.

was referring to general summer reading and this

http://www.readingrecovery.org/images/pdfs/Conferences/TLI15/Handouts/Summer_reading_loss_ch.pdf

i do generally think that this is the core problem at least for literacy, though making sure poor schools are appropriately supplied to be functional learning centers is still an issue, just not the only issue. i don't want to treat reading level as representative of the whole of early childhood education.

The way I recall it, is that all the "reading" I did over the summer was the text in (S)NES games.

If anything, it's parents who can't / don't give a damn, which is just part of the poverty feedback loop.
You can't really compel kids to read during the summer, without going to year-round schools - which is a non-starter for several reasons.

Darkman124 posted...

as to IL, the high rate of underwater homes is not good, but the data you show indicates it's improving faster than the nation, and not getting worse. emigration rate of 0.2% isn't great either, but not terrible, and none of the data suggests homeowners--even the underwater ones--are pressured to sell, since being underwater doesn't mean you're underwater due to liens against your home. good number of 'em may have just bought at too high a price in the 2003-2007 period.

i appreciate you sourcing your data. state's facing some problems, but don't overstate their severity.

it's the worst in the nation in all the areas i mentioned. 1 in 5 underwater mortgages means selling won't be pretty as high property taxes continue wrecking people. youre really underplaying the severity imo. i wouldnt want to be a property owner in Illinois right now.
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

Darkman124 posted...

as to IL, the high rate of underwater homes is not good, but the data you show indicates it's improving faster than the nation, and not getting worse. emigration rate of 0.2% isn't great either, but not terrible, and none of the data suggests homeowners--even the underwater ones--are pressured to sell, since being underwater doesn't mean you're underwater due to liens against your home. good number of 'em may have just bought at too high a price in the 2003-2007 period.

i appreciate you sourcing your data. state's facing some problems, but don't overstate their severity.

it's the worst in the nation in all the areas i mentioned. 1 in 5 underwater mortgages means selling won't be pretty as high property taxes continue wrecking people. youre really underplaying the severity imo. i wouldnt want to be a property owner in Illinois right now.

It also means you pretty much can't lower the price.

Questionmarktarius posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Darkman124 posted...

as to IL, the high rate of underwater homes is not good, but the data you show indicates it's improving faster than the nation, and not getting worse. emigration rate of 0.2% isn't great either, but not terrible, and none of the data suggests homeowners--even the underwater ones--are pressured to sell, since being underwater doesn't mean you're underwater due to liens against your home. good number of 'em may have just bought at too high a price in the 2003-2007 period.

i appreciate you sourcing your data. state's facing some problems, but don't overstate their severity.

it's the worst in the nation in all the areas i mentioned. 1 in 5 underwater mortgages means selling won't be pretty as high property taxes continue wrecking people. youre really underplaying the severity imo. i wouldnt want to be a property owner in Illinois right now.

It also means you pretty much can't lower the price.

exactly. and with taxes increasing a lot all the time, and with less jobs, and with 1 in 5 already underwater...we're fucked.
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Darkman124 posted...

your words. mine are 'funding of schools should not be tied to value of neighborhood homes as that creates haves and have nots.'

and my words are - "if a community can earn more, it's their right and their freedom to put more of their money into their own community rather than someone else's. federal solutions be damned."
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vicedungwinsgam posted...

It's kinda sat that people still aren't realizing that the left and right are the same fucking thing.

Only one side is trying to raise taxes on the middle and lower classes while saying they're lowering them, only one side is trying to rip healthcare away from millions of Americans, only one side is trying to strip away rights from minorities.

"Same shit, both sides" is not an argument that holds up under even the most minor scrutiny. Yes both sides are shit, but one is very clearly worse.
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BLAKUboy posted...

Only one side is trying to raise taxes on the middle and lower classes while saying they're lowering them

The big stickler here seems to be the local-tax deduction, which never should have existed.

only one side is trying to rip healthcare away from millions of Americans

The roots of the healthcare shitstorm lie in mandating ER treatment, and failure to tackle Tort Refomr string of bigass malpractice suits in the mid 90s.

only one side is trying to strip away rights from minorities.

...which rights, exactly?

BLAKUboy posted...

vicedungwinsgam posted...

It's kinda sat that people still aren't realizing that the left and right are the same fucking thing.

Only one side is trying to raise taxes on the middle and lower classes while saying they're lowering them, only one side is trying to rip healthcare away from millions of Americans, only one side is trying to strip away rights from minorities.

"Same shit, both sides" is not an argument that holds up under even the most minor scrutiny. Yes both sides are shit, but one is very clearly worse.

What a stupid post. Democrats raised taxes on the middle class by quite a bit via Obamacare. People are paying way more for their premiums, to the point where a premium is higher than some people's damned mortgage. Not to mention that Democrats raise taxes in all kinds of ways (see Chicago for a great example).

Democrats pretend to want to preserve minority rights while taking them away from everyone. (Which side is more likely to want to ban firearms or introduce censorship/surveillance into law?)
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Subsidies for homes should have never existed in the first place. Now people are crying since they don't want to lose their entitlements.
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Wow, this is a legit good bill. This had better pass because it would feel good to keep climbing out of the whole Obama dug.
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Meanwhile, thirty-two years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJkMOjqwxFI

Y2J0sHBK_GB posted...

Wow, this is a legit good bill. This had better pass because it would feel good to keep climbing out of the whole Obama dug.

Joke account
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Obama had a recession and the slowest economic recovery since WW2. Ever since Trump took office, the economy has been getting better at a faster rate, we have the Dow at a record high, unemployment is low and more jobs are coming back. Historically, the right has always been good at economics while the left has Jackson, Carter, Clinton, Obama and so on. The left needs to stick at social issues
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Y2J0sHBK_GB posted...

Obama had a recession and the slowest economic recovery since WW2. Ever since Trump took office, the economy has been getting better at a faster rate, we have the Dow at a record high, unemployment is low and more jobs are coming back. Historically, the right has always been good at economics while the left has Jackson, Carter, Clinton, Obama and so on. The left needs to stick at social issues

Hold on. There's something I need to take care of right quick:
https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/8c0bcf8e-7f34-4773-bbdf-89a55e2f8b17_1.47c7115c8d13d745a1a67ef59b904eed.jpeg

Y2J0sHBK_GB posted...

Obama had a recession and the slowest economic recovery since WW2. Ever since Trump took office, the economy has been getting better at a faster rate, we have the Dow at a record high, unemployment is low and more jobs are coming back.

You know all that happened while Obama was in offfice right? You do know that we are still under Obama's budget right?
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

Maybe the expectation that every school receive the same exact amount of funding is a stupid expectation to begin with. Maybe the more successful communities are entitled to ensure that more of their net worth goes to their own community and offspring.

I'm a teacher and I don't entirely disagree with this, but when I teach in a city school where our history books are from 2001 and not even 20 miles away kids are given school funded macbooks, then yeah I would say the inequalities need to be addressed.
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justaguy3492 posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Maybe the expectation that every school receive the same exact amount of funding is a stupid expectation to begin with. Maybe the more successful communities are entitled to ensure that more of their net worth goes to their own community and offspring.

I'm a teacher and I don't entirely disagree with this, but when I teach in a city school where our history books are from 2001 and not even 20 miles away kids are given school funded macbooks, then yeah I would say the inequalities need to be addressed.

The funding per student should be public record. Go look it up.
Usually it can be found by googling the district names.

Bishop9800 posted...

Y2J0sHBK_GB posted...

Obama had a recession and the slowest economic recovery since WW2. Ever since Trump took office, the economy has been getting better at a faster rate, we have the Dow at a record high, unemployment is low and more jobs are coming back.

You know all that happened while Obama was in offfice right? You do know that we are still under Obama's budget right?

No. Trump is a successful business man. People had confidence in him which is why the Dow skyrocketed under him the moment he took office. and businesses that do good in the stock market create jobs and help the economy. Obama just wasn't good at creating market confidence.
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Seriously, why are there so many accounts being made these last few months that go straight to full on Trumpanzee? It's happening with such frequency that if we were on Twitter I'd have to assume they were Russian bots.
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BLAKUboy posted...

Seriously, why are there so many accounts being made these last few months that go straight to full on Trumpanzee? It's happening with such frequency that if we were on Twitter I'd have to assume they were Russian bots.

stormfront closing

and most online trump supporters are NEETs who have nothing better to do with their time so they shit post places like here and on reddit/twitter with their anime avis
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BLAKUboy posted...

Seriously, why are there so many accounts being made these last few months that go straight to full on Trumpanzee? It's happening with such frequency that if we were on Twitter I'd have to assume they were Russian bots.

This isn't a new thing. We keep getting new conservatroll accounts being made ever since election night. Hell, it was probably happening during the election period too, but it became way more noticeable immediately afterwards.

It's slowed down a bit, but it has never stopped.
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Are you seriously claiming that Obamazees didn't exist? Because they did. The only real thing is nobody has any civility for political discourse which is sad.
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Y2J0sHBK_GB posted...

No. Trump is a successful business man. People had confidence in him which is why the Dow skyrocketed under him the moment he took office. and businesses that do good in the stock market create jobs and help the economy. Obama just wasn't good at creating market confidence.

No. once again, we are still under Obama's budget. Since he was in office, he brought the nation outta a recession and thats when the markets started to climb. That had nothing to do with Trump. Now when his budget gets put into play, then we can see how it does.
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Obama had nothing to do with the Dow. He was literally out of office at it's peak. Again, the stock market is based on market confidence. The only thing his budget did was give us the slowest economic recovery since WW2. The Dow is all the matters since that's where businesses get their money to invest in things like employees and expansions.

Why is that a surprise to you? Trump is a very successful businessman and a self made billionaire. It's no surprise the market would be willing to invest in him over a couple constitutional lawyer.
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