Current Events > Interesting point someone made to me re: Weinstein vs Louis CK, etc.

(+) Yeah! (+)

I mentioned how - while what Louis did was messed up no doubt - it's nowhere near what Weinstein and Spacey did, but because of the general shitstorm going on he's been tarred with the same brush and that's why everyone's coming down on him so hard about it.

Friend said: "yeah, but not like the punishment doesn't fit the crime does it?"

It's a good point really. Like what has happened to Louis CK? He's been publically humiliated and now a number of sponsors and backers no longer want to be involved with him professionally. It's not like he's been taken to jail or anything huh? I think that's a fair punishment for being a creep in the workplace towards coworkers. If anything, the question shouldn't be "why is Louis CK getting treated so harshly", it should be more like "Why isn't Weinstein in a dark cell somewhere".
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If Louis CK felt what he was doing was ok he would have made jokes about it or told the truth immediately. Not hide it and lie that they are just rumors for years

CruelBuffalo posted...

If Louis CK felt what he was doing was ok he would have made jokes about it or told the truth immediately. Not hide it and lie that they are just rumors for years

Also that.
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CruelBuffalo posted...

If Louis CK felt what he was doing was ok he would have made jokes about it or told the truth immediately. Not hide it and lie that they are just rumors for years

He literally admitted and owned what he did.
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Deadpool_18 posted...

CruelBuffalo posted...

If Louis CK felt what he was doing was ok he would have made jokes about it or told the truth immediately. Not hide it and lie that they are just rumors for years

He literally admitted and owned what he did.

After claiming it was just rumors for years, as Cruel said.
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Deadpool_18 posted...

CruelBuffalo posted...

If Louis CK felt what he was doing was ok he would have made jokes about it or told the truth immediately. Not hide it and lie that they are just rumors for years

He literally admitted and owned what he did.

Only after the story was blown wide open by the NYT, though. Sounds like he went out of his way to avoid these rumours despite them happening.

Also, he still did it. It's good that he owned up to it completely, but still, he still did it.
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pinky0926 posted...

Deadpool_18 posted...

CruelBuffalo posted...

If Louis CK felt what he was doing was ok he would have made jokes about it or told the truth immediately. Not hide it and lie that they are just rumors for years

He literally admitted and owned what he did.

Only after the story was blown wide open by the NYT, though. Sounds like he went out of his way to avoid these rumours despite them happening.

Also, he still did it. It's good that he owned up to it completely, but still, he still did it.

He still admitted to it, apologized profusely, and owned what he did. I dont know what more you people want.
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Deadpool_18 posted...

He still admitted to it, apologized profusely, and owned what he did. I dont know what more you people want.

I don't want anything more, but do you really wonder why he lost his contracts, sponsors and is now publically disgraced? Saying "I did it and I'm sorry" is the appropriate response but it doesn't mean the thing didn't happen, and frankly owning it up to it only in the face of a scandal sounds more like "I'm sorry I was caught".
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I think they hit Louie way too hard
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darkprince45 posted...

I think they hit Louie way too hard

How? What did he lose that he shouldn't have lost?
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pinky0926 posted...

Deadpool_18 posted...

He still admitted to it, apologized profusely, and owned what he did. I dont know what more you people want.

I don't want anything more, but do you really wonder why he lost his contracts, sponsors and is now publically disgraced? Saying "I did it and I'm sorry" is the appropriate response but it doesn't mean the thing didn't happen, and frankly owning it up to it only in the face of a scandal sounds more like "I'm sorry I was caught".

No, I dont wonder. Like your friend said, the punishment fits the crime. But thats the thing. Hes been punished and he handled the situation as well as he could have. Lets move forward.
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He eventually came clean when the option to ignore it was no longer available. These same comedians have been telling this same story for years.

It's definitely an "I'm sorry I was caught" moment, and just because someone apologizes for something doesn't mean they are magically redeemed
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it is crazy to me that so many people consider what louis ck did not bad or whatever just because it isn't as bad as what other people have done

it really puts into perspective for me the scope of the problem in a way that the enormous amount of weinstein-esque allegations by themselves did not
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Deadpool_18 posted...

Lets move forward.

Moving forward doesn't mean "Everyone goes back to working with him the next day".

He's in public opinion jail right now.
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Balrog0 posted...

it is crazy to me that so many people consider what louis ck did not bad or whatever just because it isn't as bad as what other people have done

Yeah that was eye opening. So was the recent IGN situation where the boss told someone who was beneath him that she needed to "date a real man like him" and "he wishes he could go all night with her." It's weird to see some guys react with, "WHAT? I CAN'T EVEN DO THAT??"
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That_Happened posted...

darkprince45 posted...

I think they hit Louie way too hard

How? What did he lose that he shouldn't have lost?

He lost everything. That's way too much for a pervy thing that crossed a line professionally but wasn't illegal given he got consent first.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/maddieberg/2017/11/10/louis-c-k-s-losses-how-much-the-sexual-misconduct-scandal-may-cost-the-comedian/1

In addition to being dropped by powerful management company 3 Arts Entertainment agency and his touring agency APA, HBO cut ties with Louis C.K., dropping the comedian from its special The Night of Too Many Stars and pulling his three specials and series Lucky Louie from its on-demand library. Distribution company The Orchard said it will not release his upcoming film I Love You, Daddy, which Louis C.K. wrote, directed, produced, financed and starred in. Netflix scrapped his second special of a two-special deal that he signed in February.

FX, the network where Louis C.K. had a lucrative overall deal and where his Emmy-winning Louie aired, also parted ways with the comedian, meaning he will lose his credit as a co-creator on Pamela Adlon's Better Things and Zach Galifianakis' Baskets. Similarly, TBS suspended production on Louis C.K.'s upcoming animated series The Cops, which he co-created and in which he voices a character.

The exact number will be hard to ascertain...but it will add up to millions. And with his career likely over, the total amount of future earnings lost is much more.
...
Because of the termination of his deal with FX he stands to lose up to $5 million each year.... He will lose less, perhaps closer to $1 million, from the scrapping of his TBS series, as animated shows are worth less money.

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s0nicfan posted...

He lost everything. That's way too much for a pervy thing that crossed a line professionally but wasn't illegal given he got consent first.

But he didn't get consent first in 3 of the 4 situations. He didn't even ask when he was on the phone, and in the case with the two women in his hotel room he asked but didn't even wait for a "yes."
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That_Happened posted...

s0nicfan posted...

He lost everything. That's way too much for a pervy thing that crossed a line professionally but wasn't illegal given he got consent first.

But he didn't get consent first in 3 of the 4 situations.

Not according to his statement:

These stories are true. At the time, I said to myself that what I did was O.K. because I never showed a woman my dick without asking first, which is also true.

His whole follow-on is that even though he asked, because he was in a "position of power" that consent was null.

EDIT: The phone thing is a bit ambiguous because they weren't in the same room and it's unclear whether the person on the phone was meant to hear. If the intent was that he was just doing his thing and hoped nobody would hear, again it was very unprofessional, but not sexual assault.
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s0nicfan posted...

These stories are true. At the time, I said to myself that what I did was O.K. because I never showed a woman my dick without asking first, which is also true.

Without asking first. He asked, but the two women in his hotel room never said "yes." They laughed nervously thinking he wasn't serious, and then he pulled it out. On the phone with a woman, he obviously didn't show her anything but he still deeded during their conversation, again without getting consent.
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That_Happened posted...

darkprince45 posted...

I think they hit Louie way too hard

How? What did he lose that he shouldn't have lost?

Literally everything lol
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darkprince45 posted...

That_Happened posted...

darkprince45 posted...

I think they hit Louie way too hard

How? What did he lose that he shouldn't have lost?

Literally everything lol

Seriously, he didnt deserve that.
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darkprince45 posted...

That_Happened posted...

darkprince45 posted...

I think they hit Louie way too hard

How? What did he lose that he shouldn't have lost?

Literally everything lol

He lost his current deals and specials. Yes. That's not unreasonable for making yourself look terrible publicly. That doesn't mean he's done forever--he'll probably bounce back from this in the future, especially considering how sincere and well-written his apology was. But he's not being charged with anything and he's not going to jail, and his life isn't somehow ruined. This is completely fair, next.
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His confession and apology was a classic example of gas lighting. They didn't say anything at the time so he thought it was okay, ugh. He's a creep and I'm glad it's out there.
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That_Happened posted...

darkprince45 posted...

That_Happened posted...

darkprince45 posted...

I think they hit Louie way too hard

How? What did he lose that he shouldn't have lost?

Literally everything lol

He lost his current deals and specials. Yes. That's not unreasonable for making yourself look terrible publicly. That doesn't mean he's done forever--he'll probably bounce back from this in the future, especially considering how sincere and well-written his apology was. But he's not being charged with anything and he's not going to jail, and his life isn't somehow ruined. This is completely fair, next.

No it isnt. More powerful people have gotten less for worse.
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That_Happened posted...

s0nicfan posted...

He lost everything. That's way too much for a pervy thing that crossed a line professionally but wasn't illegal given he got consent first.

But he didn't get consent first in 3 of the 4 situations. He didn't even ask when he was on the phone, and in the case with the two women in his hotel room he asked but didn't even wait for a "yes."

And hey, let's not forget that "getting consent" when you're asking from a position of significant power is dubious at best.
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I assume he's still getting money from some of the things, streaming services haven't pulled down his old specials or episodes.
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Deadpool_18 posted...

Seriously, he didnt deserve that.

Didn't he?

Think about it for a sec: let's say you were a chef and it came out that across half dozen or so previous restaurants you worked atyou had exposed yourself like this to several employees....do you think it would be appropriate to get fired? Do you think anyone would ever want to employ you in that town again if they knew about it?

He lost his job and people don't want to work with him anymore. That's absolutely what he deserved.
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Balrog0 posted...

I assume he's still getting money from some of the things, streaming services haven't pulled down his old specials or episodes.

The forbes article touches on this. They likely can't recover any money he's already been paid, but even for streaming specials if they cancel his contract then he isn't likely to get any future revenue from it, moreso if they pull the specials.
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Deadpool_18 posted...

No it isnt. More powerful people have gotten less for worse.

So because other people have unfairly gotten away with it, that means CK should be treated with kid gloves as well? That doesn't make a lot of sense.
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Spacey should be in mental health facility.
After hearing about his childhood, it's no wonder he is the way he is.
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Balrog0 posted...

it is crazy to me that so many people consider what louis ck did not bad or whatever just because it isn't as bad as what other people have done

it really puts into perspective for me the scope of the problem in a way that the enormous amount of weinstein-esque allegations by themselves did not

agreed. people have no problem believing that weinstein and spacey are assholes, but nobody wants to think louis ck is also an asshole. so they defend him. it's p sickening seeing it happen in this very topic

scar the 1 posted...

That_Happened posted...

s0nicfan posted...

He lost everything. That's way too much for a pervy thing that crossed a line professionally but wasn't illegal given he got consent first.

But he didn't get consent first in 3 of the 4 situations. He didn't even ask when he was on the phone, and in the case with the two women in his hotel room he asked but didn't even wait for a "yes."

And hey, let's not forget that "getting consent" when you're asking from a position of significant power is dubious at best.

So how does one in his position, which for the record here we're calling "significant power" from his position as "successful comedian", get consent? Can he only get consent from people as famous or more famous than him? What does this even mean? If asking permission isn't sufficient, then what is? Notarized forms?
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FrenchCrunch posted...

Balrog0 posted...

it is crazy to me that so many people consider what louis ck did not bad or whatever just because it isn't as bad as what other people have done

it really puts into perspective for me the scope of the problem in a way that the enormous amount of weinstein-esque allegations by themselves did not

agreed. people have no problem believing that weinstein and spacey are assholes, but nobody wants to think louis ck is also an asshole. so they defend him. it's p sickening seeing it happen in this very topic

He's an asshole. I'm not defending his actions. I'm arguing that losing EVERYTHING is a bit extreme given the specifics of the situations. You're comparing literal sexual assault and/or rape to masturbation with consent that was half-hearted. Those are VERY different things.
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FrenchCrunch posted...

Balrog0 posted...

it is crazy to me that so many people consider what louis ck did not bad or whatever just because it isn't as bad as what other people have done

it really puts into perspective for me the scope of the problem in a way that the enormous amount of weinstein-esque allegations by themselves did not

agreed. people have no problem believing that weinstein and spacey are assholes, but nobody wants to think louis ck is also an asshole. so they defend him. it's p sickening seeing it happen in this very topic

People wouldnt walk on the same sidewalk as you if the things youve said and defended on this board were open for public opinion, so lets not judge TOO harshly.
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s0nicfan posted...

So how does one in his position, which for the record here we're calling "significant power" from his position as "successful comedian", get consent?

Ask a person to get coffee or go on a date, and work on developing an actual relationship (and being sure they actually like you) before whipping your dick out in front of them. You know, like they used to do in the old days. Like, the early 2000s.
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s0nicfan posted...

So how does one in his position, which for the record here we're calling "significant power" from his position as "successful comedian", get consent? Can he only get consent from people as famous or more famous than him? What does this even mean? If asking permission isn't sufficient, then what is? Notarized forms?

He could try being normal and like, ask a girl out or something. I realise this is complicated but a well adjusted person should be able to figure out how to be respectful and human about it.
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That_Happened posted...

Deadpool_18 posted...

No it isnt. More powerful people have gotten less for worse.

So because other people have unfairly gotten away with it, that means CK should be treated with kid gloves as well? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

No, because what he did doesnt come close to physical assault he shouldnt be treated as harshly.
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Deadpool_18 posted...

People wouldnt walk on the same sidewalk as you if the things youve said and defended on this board were open for public opinion, so lets not judge TOO harshly.

?

s0nicfan posted...

He's an asshole. I'm not defending his actions. I'm arguing that losing EVERYTHING is a bit extreme given the specifics of the situations.

i mean maybe just dont be a creepy sex offender and you wont lose your job and money?

That_Happened posted...

s0nicfan posted...

So how does one in his position, which for the record here we're calling "significant power" from his position as "successful comedian", get consent?

Ask a person to get coffee or go on a date, and work on developing an actual relationship (and being sure they actually like you) before whipping your dick out in front of them. You know, like they used to do in the old days. Like, the early 2000s.

Have you never heard of the concept of casual sex? Did you not realize services like Tumblr exist? Or are you seriously arguing that sexual intimacy of any kind has to come from a 1950s style courtship? Maybe he should have called their parents first?
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Deadpool_18 posted...

No, because what he did doesnt come close to physical assault he shouldnt be treated as harshly.

You're only saying this because we have the luxury of hindsight. If some big gay dude locked you in his hotel room, stood between you and the door, started talking about how hot you were and took out his piece and started deeding, you'd have no idea what was about to happen to you. And it wouldn't be unreasonable to think sexual assault was around the corner.
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Deadpool_18 posted...

That_Happened posted...

Deadpool_18 posted...

No it isnt. More powerful people have gotten less for worse.

So because other people have unfairly gotten away with it, that means CK should be treated with kid gloves as well? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

No, because what he did doesnt come close to physical assault he shouldnt be treated as harshly.

yeah but once again dude, how is getting fired and people not wanting to work with you too harsh a punishment?

Can you name any job in the world where whipping out your dick and jerking off in front of colleagues would not result in an immediate firing?
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s0nicfan posted...

That_Happened posted...

s0nicfan posted...

So how does one in his position, which for the record here we're calling "significant power" from his position as "successful comedian", get consent?

Ask a person to get coffee or go on a date, and work on developing an actual relationship (and being sure they actually like you) before whipping your dick out in front of them. You know, like they used to do in the old days. Like, the early 2000s.

Have you never heard of the concept of casual sex? Did you not realize services like Tumblr exist? Or are you seriously arguing that sexual intimacy of any kind has to come from a 1950s style courtship? Maybe he should have called their parents first?

Dude I have more casual sex than most of CE put together and I've never just whipped out my dick to someone without having an extremely firm understanding that they'd enjoy that first.
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pinky0926 posted...

Deadpool_18 posted...

He still admitted to it, apologized profusely, and owned what he did. I dont know what more you people want.

I don't want anything more, but do you really wonder why he lost his contracts, sponsors and is now publically disgraced? Saying "I did it and I'm sorry" is the appropriate response but it doesn't mean the thing didn't happen, and frankly owning it up to it only in the face of a scandal sounds more like "I'm sorry I was caught".

Incorrect. He didn't merely apologize. Louis CK is literally the only person who understands why what he did was wrong.

Read this quote:

But what I learned later in life, too late, is that when you have power over another person, asking them to look at your dick isnt a question. Its a predicament for them. The power I had over these women is that they admired me. And I wielded that power irresponsibly. I have been remorseful of my actions. And Ive tried to learn from them. And run from them. Now Im aware of the extent of the impact of my actions. I learned yesterday the extent to which I left these women who admired me feeling badly about themselves and cautious around other men who would never have put them in that position. I also took advantage of the fact that I was widely admired in my and their community, which disabled them from sharing their story and brought hardship to them when they tried because people who look up to me didnt want to hear it. I didnt think that I was doing any of that because my position allowed me not to think about it.

VS other people:

"I don't remember that, I was probably drunk."
"My bad, I resign."
"Sorry. I will donate a bunch of money to RAINN."
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s0nicfan posted...

Have you never heard of the concept of casual sex? Did you not realize services like Tumblr exist? Or are you seriously arguing that sexual intimacy of any kind has to come from a 1950s style courtship?

You asked how a person in a position of power should get "consent" from people that work for him. That's a pretty dicey situation in the first place, but if you want to ensure you're not committing sexual assault you'd better cover your bases and strike up an actual rapport with the person instead of just pulling out your dick.

If you want casual sex use dating apps, but don't take your Tinder behavior to work and treat actual humans like they're things that can be "swiped right" on. This really isnt complicated for well-adjusted people.
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s0nicfan posted...

scar the 1 posted...

That_Happened posted...

s0nicfan posted...

He lost everything. That's way too much for a pervy thing that crossed a line professionally but wasn't illegal given he got consent first.

But he didn't get consent first in 3 of the 4 situations. He didn't even ask when he was on the phone, and in the case with the two women in his hotel room he asked but didn't even wait for a "yes."

And hey, let's not forget that "getting consent" when you're asking from a position of significant power is dubious at best.

So how does one in his position, which for the record here we're calling "significant power" from his position as "successful comedian", get consent? Can he only get consent from people as famous or more famous than him? What does this even mean? If asking permission isn't sufficient, then what is? Notarized forms?

Well for one he could make sure that the person he asks is made aware and comfortable with the fact that not giving consent is perfectly OK. If he fails to do that, he's not using his power responsibly. His own quote above explains it quite well.
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ChromaticAngel posted...

Incorrect. He didn't merely apologize. Louis CK is literally the only person who understands why what he did was wrong.

To be fair, he's an actor and a brilliant writer. He may understand why what he did was wrong, but he also may just know exactly what to say to seem genuine.
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ChromaticAngel posted...

Incorrect. He didn't merely apologize. Louis CK is literally the only person who understands why what he did was wrong.

Read this quote:

It would have been a perfect apology if only -

- he made it before a NYT article blowed the story right open
- he actually said the words "I am sorry" or "I apologize" at any point in the statement

Like I don't know what you want man. It was a good statement from him, but if I shot a dude no amount of "I'm sorry, I realise my actions are wrong and I hurt people and I'm taking steps to be a better person" is going to get me out of a murder charge.
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pinky0926 posted...

he actually said the words "I am sorry" or "I apologize" at any point in the statement

He did. That's just a truncated portion of his response to highlight what I thought was the most important part.
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@Deadpool_18 ?

ChromaticAngel posted...

pinky0926 posted...

Deadpool_18 posted...

He still admitted to it, apologized profusely, and owned what he did. I dont know what more you people want.

I don't want anything more, but do you really wonder why he lost his contracts, sponsors and is now publically disgraced? Saying "I did it and I'm sorry" is the appropriate response but it doesn't mean the thing didn't happen, and frankly owning it up to it only in the face of a scandal sounds more like "I'm sorry I was caught".

Incorrect. He didn't merely apologize. Louis CK is literally the only person who understands why what he did was wrong.

Read this quote:

But what I learned later in life, too late, is that when you have power over another person, asking them to look at your dick isnt a question. Its a predicament for them. The power I had over these women is that they admired me. And I wielded that power irresponsibly. I have been remorseful of my actions. And Ive tried to learn from them. And run from them. Now Im aware of the extent of the impact of my actions. I learned yesterday the extent to which I left these women who admired me feeling badly about themselves and cautious around other men who would never have put them in that position. I also took advantage of the fact that I was widely admired in my and their community, which disabled them from sharing their story and brought hardship to them when they tried because people who look up to me didnt want to hear it. I didnt think that I was doing any of that because my position allowed me not to think about it.

VS other people:

"I don't remember that, I was probably drunk."
"My bad, I resign."
"Sorry. I will donate a bunch of money to RAINN."

Comes off as "I'm sorry I got caught"
If he had said this years ago then would sound sincere but now that he is in trouble for his actions it sounds like he is going by a script on how to salvage his reputation that all people of power go through.
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