Current Events > GOP tax plan would hike taxes on 31% of middle class americans

(+) Yeah! (+)

Darkman124 posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

Glass_Phantom posted...

The GOP tax plan needs to be defeated.

20%. No deductions.
There you go. That's the "tax plan" we oughtta have.

We both know that would be a massive tax hike on about 60% of the US population.

What if the tax only applied once someone makes above a certain income? Or, at least, it starts applying slowly as someone crosses over that income
---

Questionmarktarius posted...

It's functionally identical to extortion.

In what way?

emblem boy posted...

What if the tax only applied once someone makes above a certain income? Or, at least, it starts applying slowly as someone crosses over that income

why, that's downright progressive
---

Asherlee10 posted...

This stuff makes me feel like an idiot. I have no idea what I'm looking at or how to make sense of it.

You're not supposed to, because it really doesn't affect you. Just play Block or Hewitt to do your taxes.
Nearly all of that stuff is nothing more than a snail-trail of corruption, laid out in esoteric loopholes and exceptions that over-specifically exist to allow overly-specific people and entities to game the system.

Balrog0 posted...

@Questionmarktarius I think you'd like this

Thanks. Not sure I really understand the excerpt, though.

Glass_Phantom posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

It's functionally identical to extortion.

In what way?

"It would be a shame if you didn't buy a house you can't really afford, and not get a marginal tax deduction by not doing so..."

It says only 9% of the middle class would pay more taxes next year, and 91% would get a tax cut.

Darkman, can you explain why the tax cut wouldn't hit all people in that income bracket?

Also it jumps to 31% of the middle class paying more taxes by 2027 because they are assuming none of the tax breaks will be extended, which is a very dire assumption, most likely they would get extended, it is pretty typical.
---

AngelsNAirwav3s posted...

It says only 9% of the middle class would pay more taxes next year, and 91% would get a tax cut.

[...]

Also it jumps to 31% of the middle class paying more taxes by 2027 because they are assuming none of the tax breaks will be extended, which is a very dire assumption, most likely they would get extended, it is pretty typical.

The tl;dr of the article is "Republicans suck!". I don't see why or how anyone is surprised.

AngelsNAirwav3s posted...

Darkman, can you explain why the tax cut wouldn't hit all people in that income bracket?

because it raises standard deductions (not used if you itemize) and maximum income level before 25% thresholds, while removing the ability to itemize from the vast majority of middle class earners. potentially meaning a greater amount of adjusted gross income is above the 25% threshold for households in high-income tax states.

Asherlee10 posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

You're not supposed to, because it really doesn't affect you. Just play Block or Hewitt to do your taxes.

No way am I using one of those places. I prefer independent CPAs. My taxes are complicated because I'm a w2 at my normal job, self-employed for side work, and I've won a lawsuit this year.

christine and i have schedule B and C income in addition to our normal w2 income and it's not too hard to file on our own (well, for me to file for us)

you may want to ask your CPA to walk you through it in the spring, it may seem like something you can do yourself
---

Asherlee10 posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

You're not supposed to, because it really doesn't affect you. Just play Block or Hewitt to do your taxes.

No way am I using one of those places. I prefer independent CPAs. My taxes are complicated because I'm a w2 at my normal job, self-employed for side work, and I've won a lawsuit this year.

Yeah... avoid Block.

Darkman124 posted...

I don't mind paying more, but not so that large corporations can pay less.

I think this is an important point. I'm willing for my taxes to go up for social benefit programs, even if they aren't ones that benefit me, but I'm far less enthusiastic about instead just taking on some of the tax burden that corporations currently pay.
---

I hate these financial tiers that don't even work for parts of the country.

My wife and I both work. We make over 200k a year together, before taxes.

But due to where we live, that's not middle class.

We can only move so far away because our jobs are located in NYC. So our property taxes and cost of living are much, much higher than the average person.

But just due to our salary we are considered upper middle class when realistically we are upper lower class.

My property taxes ALONE are close to 13k a year.
---

Anteaterking posted...

Darkman124 posted...

I don't mind paying more, but not so that large corporations can pay less.

I think this is an important point. I'm willing for my taxes to go up for social benefit programs, even if they aren't ones that benefit me, but I'm far less enthusiastic about instead just taking on some of the tax burden that corporations currently pay.

Here here!

chrono625 posted...

But due to where we live, that's not middle class.

fwiw

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/20/realestate/what-is-middle-class-in-manhattan.html

But if you are defining middle class by lifestyle, to accommodate the cost of living in Manhattan, that salary would have to fall between $80,000 and $235,000. This means someone making $70,000 a year in other parts of the country would need to make $166,000 in Manhattan to enjoy the same purchasing power.

Asherlee10 posted...

$200k/year is lower class in your area?

no but it likely feels like it to him because (like many of us in the upper middle class) he has no idea what it is like to actually be lower class

it is def true that his income would go much, much farther in other areas, but frequently people tend to exaggerate this effect to feel vindicated
---

I make way under $48k. Winning!
---

No taxation without representation!!!!!
---

Asherlee10 posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

You're not supposed to, because it really doesn't affect you. Just play Block or Hewitt to do your taxes.

No way am I using one of those places. I prefer independent CPAs. My taxes are complicated because I'm a w2 at my normal job, self-employed for side work, and I've won a lawsuit this year.

I had a job and 1099 for a sidejob and had no issues filing myself via turbotax.

The lawsuit is way over my head, though.
---

Another nail in FIAT's coffin
---

DarkProto05 posted...

literal_garbage posted...

The middle class has had it too easy in this country for decades, its time that they pay their fair share

The rich pay much less than their fair share because of loopholes.

1 percent of the population pays 40 percent of the taxes.

How is that NOT a 'fair share?'
---

darkjedilink posted...

DarkProto05 posted...

literal_garbage posted...

The middle class has had it too easy in this country for decades, its time that they pay their fair share

The rich pay much less than their fair share because of loopholes.

1 percent of the population pays 40 percent of the taxes.

How is that NOT a 'fair share?'

Time to go get some popcorn...

I wonder if disagreeing with the GOP would cause darkjedi's brain to explode.
---

DreadedWave posted...

I wonder if disagreeing with the GOP would cause darkjedi's brain to explode.

lol
---

BuzzyTheCat posted...

Its not the Federal Governments fault you have allowed your state to increase your taxes so high all the while short changing the Federal Government.

This.

FLUFFYGERM posted...

BuzzyTheCat posted...

Its not the Federal Governments fault you have allowed your state to increase your taxes so high all the while short changing the Federal Government.

This.

so we should eliminate the property tax and mortgage interest deductions too, right?
---

darkjedilink posted...

1 percent of the population pays 40 percent of the taxes.

How is that NOT a 'fair share?'

Should 1% of the population pay 1% of the taxes?
---

Anteaterking posted...

darkjedilink posted...

1 percent of the population pays 40 percent of the taxes.

How is that NOT a 'fair share?'

Should 1% of the population pay 1% of the taxes?

Are you familiar with the "ten guys in a bar" parable?

darkjedilink posted...

1 percent of the population pays 40 percent of the taxes.

How is that NOT a 'fair share?'

Because their tax rate should be 70%, not 40%.

Anteaterking posted...

darkjedilink posted...

1 percent of the population pays 40 percent of the taxes.

How is that NOT a 'fair share?'

Should 1% of the population pay 1% of the taxes?

If 1 percent of the population paying 40 of the taxes is LESS than their fair share, what percent should they pay?
---

Balrog0 posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

BuzzyTheCat posted...

Its not the Federal Governments fault you have allowed your state to increase your taxes so high all the while short changing the Federal Government.

This.

so we should eliminate the property tax and mortgage interest deductions too, right?

Yes. Then people will feel the full weight of the taxes being levied on them.

Glass_Phantom posted...

darkjedilink posted...

1 percent of the population pays 40 percent of the taxes.

How is that NOT a 'fair share?'

Because their tax rate should be 70%, not 40%.

There literally isn't that much money among the 1 percent, even at a 95% tax rate.
---

Balrog0 posted...

emblem boy posted...

What if the tax only applied once someone makes above a certain income? Or, at least, it starts applying slowly as someone crosses over that income

why, that's downright progressive

Yep.

Or are you saying that this would be the same as the progressive bracket system we have now?
---

Enjoy those bootstraps, yuppies, hope you choke on them.
---

Asherlee10 posted...

chrono625 posted...

when realistically we are upper lower class.

$200k/year is lower class in your area?

Before taxes.

After taxes its closer to 120k take home.

Factor in I live in the NYC area and the cost of living, taxes and expenses are vastly higher than other areas in the country.

Darkman124 posted...

no but it likely feels like it to him because (like many of us in the upper middle class) he has no idea what it is like to actually be lower class

it is def true that his income would go much, much farther in other areas, but frequently people tend to exaggerate this effect to feel vindicated

Our salary after taxes is around 120k give or take.

Minus our mortgage, my $375 a month in commute to work, her $250 a month commute to work, grocery bill and every other expense I can think of, it isn't a lot of money relative to where I live. We do not splurge on vacations and expensive dinners or socializing. Any maintenance or work done on my home I do myself to save the labor.

My house is not a mansion, it's more than what I need RIGHT NOW, but we are expecting a child soon and plan on having at least one more.

I've seen and lived in homes that were half the size with more people, costing almost as much.

The cost of living relative to the salaries in NYC just are not the same level. I am not crying poverty, but my spending power and strength of my dollar isn't the same as other parts of the country. I live in the most if not one of highest taxed states in the country.

That article reflects everything I am stating. According to general statistics I am definitely middle class. But given the actual cost of living of where I live, I would consider myself upper lower class.
---

Questionmarktarius posted...

Anteaterking posted...

darkjedilink posted...

1 percent of the population pays 40 percent of the taxes.

How is that NOT a 'fair share?'

Should 1% of the population pay 1% of the taxes?

Are you familiar with the "ten guys in a bar" parable?

that parable tends to neglect the role the other guys have in paying local, state, property, and ss/medicare taxes

federal income tax deductions for paying those taxes to make life easier for those who pay them is not functionally different from a tax cut to those who pay federal income taxes

the reason those deductions are being removed to pay for cuts to federal corporate taxes are political by design
---

chrono625 posted...

Our salary after taxes is around 120k give or take.

Minus our mortgage, my $375 a month in commute to work, her $250 a month commute to work, grocery bill and every other expense I can think of, it isn't a lot of money relative to where I live. We do not splurge on vacations and expensive dinners or socializing. Any maintenance or work done on my home I do myself to save the labor.

My house is not a mansion, it's more than what I need RIGHT NOW, but we are expecting a child soon and plan on having at least one more.

I've seen and lived in homes that were half the size with more people, costing almost as much.

The cost of living relative to the salaries in NYC just are not the same level. I am not crying poverty, but my spending power and strength of my dollar isn't the same as other parts of the country. I live in the most if not one of highest taxed states in the country.

That article reflects everything I am stating. According to general statistics I am definitely middle class. But given the actual cost of living of where I live, I would consider myself upper lower class.

idk man you're not really refuting his point

like, first of all, the median household income before taxes in NYC is less than 100k, so if you are 'upper lower' class, then there is a ton of variation in the lower class in NYC

setting that aside, the concerns you have are over being able to save and invest while maintaining your livelihood, those are middle class problems

lower class problems are over being in perpetual and inescapable debt and/or negotiating what bills not to pay due to a lack of income

like what is your idea of middle class life like, and what are you lacking to fit that definition?
---

darkjedilink posted...

If 1 percent of the population paying 40 of the taxes is LESS than their fair share, what percent should they pay?

It should be determined by the amount of wealth they have, not the number of them there are.
---

Balrog0 posted...

lower class problems are over being in perpetual and inescapable debt and/or negotiating what bills not to pay due to a lack of income

how to tell if someone's never experienced what it's like to be lower class: they don't understand why anyone would ever use a payday loan or 'checks cashed' center

i had to research it to understand what all those places were for and why people would use them
---

Enjoying the topic
---

.
---

Anteaterking posted...

darkjedilink posted...

If 1 percent of the population paying 40 of the taxes is LESS than their fair share, what percent should they pay?

It should be determined by the amount of wealth they have, not the number of them there are.

Because people don't own their property?
---

Darkman124 posted...

Balrog0 posted...

lower class problems are over being in perpetual and inescapable debt and/or negotiating what bills not to pay due to a lack of income

how to tell if someone's never experienced what it's like to be lower class: they don't understand why anyone would ever use a payday loan or 'checks cashed' center

i had to research it to understand what all those places were for and why people would use them

Coming from the other side, I actually find the rhetoric around payday lenders kinda maddening. They suck but they fill a niche in a shitty system.

I don't want to derail the discussion though
---