Current Events > Are you accepting and supportive of transgender people?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Yes.

I don't see why any decent human wouldn't be.
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I have no problems with homosexuals , transgender etc. It's a life they live and want to live . Life is short, you don't need to like it but at least respect them , they're humans too. "Genderless" on the other hand . ..
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I guess?

Idgaf what you do with your life, gender change or not. Just don't be a fucking snowflake about it. I do agree that trans should focus on fixing mental issues first before going through with it. Some trans have unrealistic expectations on how they look when they get older imo
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EdwardoMario16 posted...

The majority of transgender people are reasonable and want to be treated like the average person should be treated: with respect.

Respect is earned, you are not entitled to be respected.

Everybody is entitled to be respected. It's common courtesy. Respect is given until a person behaves in a way where they are no longer deserving of that respect.

They don't demand special treatment or demand that you be attracted to them.

Really?

https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/trans-man-believes-heterosexual-males-who-reject-him-sexually-are-prejudice

http://www.dailywire.com/news/17419/apparently-youre-deeply-transphobic-if-you-dont-amanda-prestigiacomo#exit-modal

Two irrational people means that the entire transgender population is. Got it.
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Accepting: Yes
Supportive: No

"Are you accepting and supportive of transgender people?"

I accept that they exist, and I won't attempt to hinder their existence.

Do I support them? Not in the sense of rallying at trans marches, or anything like that.

Now, would I date a transwoman? Well, no, because I'm married.

If I wasn't married?

Maybe. She'd have to be fully transitioned, post op AND completely feminine in appearance/attitude. Basically, she'd have to be indistinguishable from a woman who was born a woman.

If that idea makes me transphobic, which it doesn't, then oh well.
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Dyinglegacy posted...

"Are you accepting and supportive of transgender people?"

I accept that they exist, and I won't attempt to hinder their existence.

Do I support them? Not in the sense of rallying at trans marches, or anything like that.

Now, would I date a transwoman? Well, no, because I'm married.

If I wasn't married?

Maybe. She'd have to be fully transitioned, post op AND completely feminine in appearance/attitude. Basically, she'd have to be indistinguishable from a woman who was born a woman.

If that idea makes me transphobic, which it doesn't, then oh well.

No, it doesn't make you transphobic and anyone who says otherwise is a jerk.
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Flasbangs posted...

Not really. Not against them, but I don't care enough to be supportive.

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Accept them? Yes
Think they should be treated with respect? Yes
Want to see a society that doesn't look down upon them or ostracize them? Yes

Think long-standing societal traditions should be re-written for them? No
Think kids in elementary school need to be given lectures on transgenders? No
Think we should ignore biological differences and expect heterosexual people to be attracted to them? No
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Zero_Destroyer posted...

--kresnik-- posted...

I treat individuals how they treat me. With that said, I'm not in favor of any kind of special treatment. I'm strongly against using government funds to pay for this, under ANY circumstances.

--kresnik-- posted...

No.

You forgot to log into an alt :thinking:

I didn't contradict myself. I never claimed to treat people differently because of being transsexual, but you don't have to agree with something to be polite about it.
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A lot of you are stating that being transgender is a mental illness. Do you guys have any solid scientific proof to prove that claim?

And don't post links from partisan websites.
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It is kinda hard to accept them when I am scared of them. I also am scared of other things.
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Doesn't matter to me
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CircleOfManias posted...

MuayThai85 posted...

Metro2 posted...

^Healthcare shouldn't discriminate. Trans people want to live happy healthy lives just like anyone else.

I consider it cosmetic and the government shouldn't cover cosmetic surgery.

Given the suicide rates pre- and post-transition, it's lifesaving surgery, not cosmetic.

Uh, no the suicide rate is still pretty high after surgery.
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ehhwhatever posted...

It is kinda hard to accept them when I am scared of them. I also am scared of other things.

I agree, I'm really scared of FtM trans peeps. What if they're trying to trick us to learn all the secret guy handshakes to then tell the women about?!
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RockLee94 posted...

Uh, no the suicide rate is still pretty high after surgery.

higher than the general pop.

much lower than trans people who don't or can't transition.

also, genital surgery shouldn't be the break between the two groups, HRT should be.
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RockLee94 posted...

CircleOfManias posted...

MuayThai85 posted...

Metro2 posted...

^Healthcare shouldn't discriminate. Trans people want to live happy healthy lives just like anyone else.

I consider it cosmetic and the government shouldn't cover cosmetic surgery.

Given the suicide rates pre- and post-transition, it's lifesaving surgery, not cosmetic.

Uh, no the suicide rate is still pretty high after surgery.

Lots of that still come from society being a pile of shit for us all. Those who argue the suicide statistics are almost always transgender haters or oppressionists. It's people like you who drive the suicide rate up. I don't give a shit about your opinions, so I'm not suicidal, but others do and it is people like you who are the cause of those thoughts. Good job.
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Of course I'm okay with them, but I'm also okay with some people not finding them attractive, and they certainly shouldn't get special treatment because of who they are.
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In what way could I be accepting/supportive of transgender people?

I acknowledge that people with gender dysphoria exist, and I have sympathy for them. But I don't personally believe that sexual reassignment surgery (SRS) is the proper solution for their condition.

Maybe science doesn't agree with me on this, but to me, there's just something wrong with pretending to be something you're not, just because you feel like you should be something else. I feel that it would be much healthier to learn to accept who you are; to come to terms with how you were born. I have no idea how difficult that is for someone with gender dysphoria, but from my point of view, that'd be a much better treatment for people suffering from gender dysphoria. To accept who they actually are instead of pretending to be something they're not.

I would guess that in the near future, people will look back on SRS as a barbaric solution to gender dysphoria.
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Just in general to people who say "changing yourself to something you're not because you feel a different way":

What are we?

I mean people.

Are we a body, or are we a mind?

Why is it you think if there's a dispute between the body and the mind, the body should take precedence? Isn't the mind what we are?
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Tmk posted...

Just in general to people who say "changing yourself to something you're not because you feel a different way":

What are we?

I mean people.

Are we a body, or are we a mind?

Why is it you think if there's a dispute between the body and the mind, the body should take precedence? Isn't the mind what we are?

Bingo, we have a winner!

This is why I am against those looking to brainwash us. Alter our mind, you alter who we are as people. It's a terrifying and inhumane thought. Could you imagine someone saying that they are going to brainwash you into something you aren't? "Oh, it would only be so you thought more as if you are a man".... well that's entirely changing who I am. That's not one aspect. That's ALL aspects of my mentality.

Attacking that is attacking me in general. I am a pacifist but if I was taken to experimental brainwashing regime, they'll get all the kicking, screaming and weapons thrown at them. I'd fight tooth and nail because I see brainwash similar as executing me. Not physically, but that is mental execution and I would be fighting for my life at that point.
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Sayoria posted...

RockLee94 posted...

CircleOfManias posted...

MuayThai85 posted...

Metro2 posted...

^Healthcare shouldn't discriminate. Trans people want to live happy healthy lives just like anyone else.

I consider it cosmetic and the government shouldn't cover cosmetic surgery.

Given the suicide rates pre- and post-transition, it's lifesaving surgery, not cosmetic.

Uh, no the suicide rate is still pretty high after surgery.

Lots of that still come from society being a pile of shit for us all. Those who argue the suicide statistics are almost always transgender haters or oppressionists. It's people like you who drive the suicide rate up. I don't give a shit about your opinions, so I'm not suicidal, but others do and it is people like you who are the cause of those thoughts. Good job.

I don't talk about this stuff in public or social media. I only did here because it was a topic. Thanks for making me responsible for suicides though apparently.
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Yes.
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Vindris_SNH posted...

In what way could I be accepting/supportive of transgender people?

I acknowledge that people with gender dysphoria exist, and I have sympathy for them. But I don't personally believe that sexual reassignment surgery (SRS) is the proper solution for their condition.

Maybe science doesn't agree with me on this, but to me, there's just something wrong with pretending to be something you're not, just because you feel like you should be something else. I feel that it would be much healthier to learn to accept who you are; to come to terms with how you were born. I have no idea how difficult that is for someone with gender dysphoria, but from my point of view, that'd be a much better treatment for people suffering from gender dysphoria. To accept who they actually are instead of pretending to be something they're not.

I would guess that in the near future, people will look back on SRS as a barbaric solution to gender dysphoria.

This

Nope.
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I don't care one way or another. As long as you don't hold me up in traffic.
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RockLee94 posted...

Sayoria posted...

RockLee94 posted...

CircleOfManias posted...

MuayThai85 posted...

Metro2 posted...

^Healthcare shouldn't discriminate. Trans people want to live happy healthy lives just like anyone else.

I consider it cosmetic and the government shouldn't cover cosmetic surgery.

Given the suicide rates pre- and post-transition, it's lifesaving surgery, not cosmetic.

Uh, no the suicide rate is still pretty high after surgery.

Lots of that still come from society being a pile of shit for us all. Those who argue the suicide statistics are almost always transgender haters or oppressionists. It's people like you who drive the suicide rate up. I don't give a shit about your opinions, so I'm not suicidal, but others do and it is people like you who are the cause of those thoughts. Good job.

I don't talk about this stuff in public or social media. I only did here because it was a topic. Thanks for making me responsible for suicides though apparently.

It's not the post-operations that do it. But you are welcome because people with your mentality are heavily at fault.
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Whatever, I don't preach hateful anti trans rhetoric on the internet and the 1 or 2 trans people I've met IRL I've treated with respect the same as any human so you can kindly fuck off.
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Everybody is entitled to be respected. It's common courtesy. Respect is given until a person behaves in a way where they are no longer deserving of that respect.

Instead of demanding others respect you, ask yourself what have YOU done to be respected?

I'm not going to respect you because you feel you are entitled to it. In fact, demanding respect when you have done nothing to earn it will make me respect you even less.

Take some responsibility instead of being a victim.

Two irrational people means that the entire transgender population is. Got it.

No duh the opinion of two trans people doesn't represent the opinion of the entire group of people, but the fact is there. Transgenders DO think like that.

A general statement was made, and I responded with a generalization that proved it to be false. In order to get out of responsibility for answering for this, you resort to the "Not All" card.
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RockLee94 posted...

Whatever, I don't preach hateful anti trans rhetoric on the internet and the 1 or 2 trans people I've met IRL I've treated with respect the same as any human so you can kindly fuck off.

I'm pretty sure I've seen you post about us in negative light in the past.

I think it is ridiculous to claim the surgery does nothing. Many of us are depressed because simply put, we want to be treated as humans. Many of us have enough mental demons are are battling that we don't need to be the black sheep of society. It's nearly impossible for many of us to even get jobs because we are who we are. When we are lucky enough to get those jobs, we are lucky to actually have customers who won't discriminate towards us face to face. Then constantly being reminded by people that we are trans doesn't help when we already know.

It's people who make things worse, not surgery. If you want us to have a lower rate, respect us like human beings. If you want to keep referencing the suicide rate and claiming it is a bad idea, then by all means, keep trashing on us and playing it off as it isn't society that sucks.
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Sayoria posted...

RockLee94 posted...

Whatever, I don't preach hateful anti trans rhetoric on the internet and the 1 or 2 trans people I've met IRL I've treated with respect the same as any human so you can kindly fuck off.

I'm pretty sure I've seen you post about us in negative light in the past.

I think it is ridiculous to claim the surgery does nothing. Many of us are depressed because simply put, we want to be treated as humans. Many of us have enough mental demons are are battling that we don't need to be the black sheep of society. It's nearly impossible for many of us to even get jobs because we are who we are. When we are lucky enough to get those jobs, we are lucky to actually have customers who won't discriminate towards us face to face. Then constantly being reminded by people that we are trans doesn't help when we already know.

It's people who make things worse, not surgery. If you want us to have a lower rate, respect us like human beings. If you want to keep referencing the suicide rate and claiming it is a bad idea, then by all means, keep trashing on us and playing it off as it isn't society that sucks.

Yeah those posts where I say things like that don't exist. Find them and I'll close my account.
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I never said that getting surgery was bad or people shouldn't do it. I was just referencing things I've read where unfortunately some people after getting the surgery still aren't happy. Which is due to a myriad of reasons including some of the things you described.
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Then I apologize. I just hate people blaming the surgery on the depression heavily seen on transgender people. Social acceptance is the biggest culprit and those who are pointing fingers at surgery are more times than not, the culprits who will forcefully call an MtF "sir". Why? Because "we are against transgender people and being against the surgery is being against them."

Some people still aren't happy because the surgery won't bring back the family that disowned them. They aren't happy because it will miraculously stop people from calling us the sex we want no association with. We get the surgery to, in a strong way, make us feel good about ourselves.... and the cases I have seen, many of us love it. My co-worker claims it is the best thing she has every done (outside of this long-winded dental fetish she has) and an ex-CE-er who had the surgery has loved it too. Sylph who still posts here says she is now post-op and she's happy as well.

I feel this surgery issue is highly fabricated and that societal acceptance is the skeleton key here. People are quick to judge the surgery, but it isn't the surgery. It is the population quick to point fingers at an idea that they don't approve of and those are the people to blame. Not my crafted vagina that makes me happy.
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EdwardoMario16 posted...

Everybody is entitled to be respected. It's common courtesy. Respect is given until a person behaves in a way where they are no longer deserving of that respect.

Instead of demanding others respect you, ask yourself what have YOU done to be respected?

I'm not going to respect you because you feel you are entitled to it. In fact, demanding respect when you have done nothing to earn it will make me respect you even less.

Take some responsibility instead of being a victim.

Maybe one day you will grow out of this juvenile mentality. Nobody should have to do anything to prove they deserve to be treated with some decency. Saying that everybody deserves a basic modicum of respect isn't "demanding" it. I'm certainly not demanding your respect. In fact, I don't want it because your respect is worth less than dog shit to me. I certainly don't respect you. Also, how am I being a victim?

No duh the opinion of two trans people doesn't represent the opinion of the entire group of people, but the fact is there. Transgenders DO think like that.

A general statement was made, and I responded with a generalization that proved it to be false. In order to get out of responsibility for answering for this, you resort to the "Not All" card.

Which is why I said "most" and not "all" in my original post. Of course there will be transgenders that think like that.
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There are white people who think black people should be killed. (Dylann Roof) .... So of course white people DO think like that.

See, change the context of that transgender comment and this is where we are.
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LinksLiege posted...

Ultimately I'm not going to do anything against anyone regardless of my feelings so, whatever. Having said that -

Everything I've heard, seen, and read on gender dysphoria leads me to believe there is biological legitimacy to MtF and FtM transgender people, so I have zero objections there. My skepticism lies with things outside of that, because I haven't seen any good arguments for things like bigender, agender, gender-fluidity, etc. beyond "That's how they feel." That's a poor reason to accept it without question; some people are insane and feel like they're something they plainly aren't, like a dog or a chair or something. I want concrete biological reasoning. Like I said though, I'm not going to harass them about it because, in the end, it doesn't affect me.

The issue is that human conscious is non-transferable. There will never be biological proof through empiricism. All of it will forever be politically driven speculation. A human being cannot split a single person's consciousness into two parts and test for what feels female and what feels male. Any argument made that feelings in the brain are more integral to the identity of consciousness will always have an equally legitimate counter that the body determines the identity of consciousness and not the other way around. In other words, you could equally make a case in any scenario in which a male brain which has more femininely identified traits is simply a male archetype that is an exceedingly rare male archetype, not a female one because by default it's a male thought process. Just a very rare one.
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HippopotamusRex posted...

The issue is that human conscious is non-transferable. There will never be biological proof through empiricism. All of it will forever be politically driven speculation. A human being cannot split a single person's consciousness into two parts and test for what feels female and what feels male. Any argument made that feelings in the brain are more integral to the identity of consciousness will always have an equally legitimate counter that the body determines the identity of consciousness and not the other way around. In other words, you could equally make a case in any scenario in which a male brain which has more femininely identified traits is simply a male archetype that is an exceedingly rare male archetype, not a female one because by default it's a male thought process. Just a very rare one.

This is a silly post.
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Conflict posted...

Sayoria posted...

Then I apologize. I just hate people blaming the surgery on the depression heavily seen on transgender people. Social acceptance is the biggest culprit and those who are pointing fingers at surgery are more times than not, the culprits who will forcefully call an MtF "sir". Why? Because "we are against transgender people and being against the surgery is being against them."

Some people still aren't happy because the surgery won't bring back the family that disowned them. They aren't happy because it will miraculously stop people from calling us the sex we want no association with. We get the surgery to, in a strong way, make us feel good about ourselves.... and the cases I have seen, many of us love it. My co-worker claims it is the best thing she has every done (outside of this long-winded dental fetish she has) and an ex-CE-er who had the surgery has loved it too. Sylph who still posts here says she is now post-op and she's happy as well.

I feel this surgery issue is highly fabricated and that societal acceptance is the skeleton key here. People are quick to judge the surgery, but it isn't the surgery. It is the population quick to point fingers at an idea that they don't approve of and those are the people to blame. Not my crafted vagina that makes me happy.

I feel like this should be common sense too. But people are more inclined to believe it has as little to do with their degenerate beliefs about transgender people as possible because it would suit their narrative the best.

And since those people are so perfect in their beliefs, transgender people choose suicide because they don't want to deal with this mental trauma on their plate.

That's why I blame the non-supportive society.
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Shadow Flare posted...

I'm pretty neutral, but at the very least I'm civil.

I do sometimes feel that transgenerism etc is just a mental illness, much like body dysmorphia and a bodybuilder etc thinking there's something wrong with them so they train to improve their image etc.
Gender dysmorphia IS a thing, I'm not entirely sure exacerbating the condition with hormones etc is really necessary or even healthy in the long term, but to each their own, I guess.

According to the DSM-V, transgenderism is not a mental illness and gender dysphoria is not an interchangable term with transgenderism. Meaning, not all TG individuals experience dysphoria.

There is some evidence, albeit low quality evidence, that hormone replacement therapy or SRS does improve quality of life.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19473181

Realistically though, there still isn't enough literature to conclude one way or another. Now that subtlety will likely be lost on CE, because it seems most of you argue in the sense of your intuitions, sentiments, and world views rather than evidence, but I digress.

Frankly, I don't understand CE's obsession with this topic. TG is a very personal issue and decisions on treatment should be a risk/benefit analysis with them and their doctor(s). It's classification of mental illness or not is largely irrelevant--the nature of mental illness changes with increasing understanding of the disease processes, as well as cultural considerations of the human experience. Homosexuality used to be considered a mental illness, after all. The current understanding of these things is an interplay between psychological, social, and biological factors and there aren't easy, clear-cut lines demarcating these boundaries. It's multifactorial. So pedantic arguments about mind vs body and such just expose how little one knows about this topic and highlights the fucked up nature of when expert topics get politicized such that people with no real background knowledge on the matter seemingly think their opinion or voice matters.

Still, since it does have a social component, I guess that's why it's such a shitfest, but I'm boggled as to why humans are so shitty to others sometimes simply due to misunderstanding. Or a weakness on their part to refuse to challenge their world views. More people ought to read Plato's allegory of the cave (but now I'm just rambling).
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ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

Brother_Gilbert posted...

I'll support them if they believe Jesus is their savior.

lol what is this silliness?

You can call me silly or stupid all you want.

The truth is God exist.

I'm not going to argue wether we should accept or support them until they're truly in the right path.
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Tmk posted...

Just in general to people who say "changing yourself to something you're not because you feel a different way":

What are we?

I mean people.

Are we a body, or are we a mind?

Why is it you think if there's a dispute between the body and the mind, the body should take precedence? Isn't the mind what we are?

The brain can malfunction. As the case with people who feel their body is "wrong" because they have all working limbs, so they want to get some amputated. Or people who are bipolar or schizophrenic.

We don't just write those people off as "who they are". We try to treat their mental disorder through therapy and/or medication. I don't think we should regard people with Gender Dysphoria much differently.

As long as hormone therapy and surgery are the most effective ways to treat them, fine. But I don't think we should stop trying to learn and repair whatever has gone wrong in their brain to cause the dysphoria between their actual body and their mind's self-image.
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Esrac posted...

Tmk posted...

Just in general to people who say "changing yourself to something you're not because you feel a different way":

What are we?

I mean people.

Are we a body, or are we a mind?

Why is it you think if there's a dispute between the body and the mind, the body should take precedence? Isn't the mind what we are?

The brain can malfunction. As the case with people who feel their body is "wrong" because they have all working limbs, so they want to get some amputated. Or people who are bipolar or schizophrenic.

We don't just write those people off as "who they are". We try to treat their mental disorder through therapy and/or medication. I don't think we should regard people with Gender Dysphoria much differently.

As long as hormone therapy and surgery are the most effective ways to treat them, fine. But I don't think we should stop trying to learn and repair whatever has gone wrong in their brain to cause the dysphoria between their actual body and their mind's self-image.

I think this is a good post.

Gender dysphoria is not something that should be celebrated or encouraged. We should be trying to prevent it from spreading, and also attentively treating those who have the misfortune of suffering from it.
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The body can malfunction as well. Plenty of people are born with things wrong about their body.

So the question remains: why side with the body over the brain?
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Esrac posted...

The brain can malfunction. As the case with people who feel their body is "wrong" because they have all working limbs, so they want to get some amputated. Or people who are bipolar or schizophrenic.

We don't just write those people off as "who they are". We try to treat their mental disorder through therapy and/or medication. I don't think we should regard people with Gender Dysphoria much differently.

As long as hormone therapy and surgery are the most effective ways to treat them, fine. But I don't think we should stop trying to learn and repair whatever has gone wrong in their brain to cause the dysphoria between their actual body and their mind's self-image.

The only reason we treat bipolar and schizophrenia symptomatically is because those symptoms often come with significant occupational dysfunction that causes undue distress. The pharmacologic and behavioral interventional treatment modalities address these symptoms.

Gender dysphoria is only considered a mental disorder in the same manner such that the discrepancy between their gender identity and sex recorded at birth are different and this causes undue distress. As such, treating them with HRT or SRS helps address this and reduces dysphoria.

To say otherwise would be imparting values onto patients, which is a huge no-no in medicine. What is the moral difference between "fixing" what's wrong in a patient's brain that causes them to identify differently versus "fixing" a homosexual person?

Perhaps we can fix certain political ideologies as well. See the slippery slope here? Where do you draw the line?
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Yes, although the only caveat is that the condition is something that should be prevented if and when it becomes humanely possible to do so.
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Soviet_Poland posted...

Esrac posted...

The brain can malfunction. As the case with people who feel their body is "wrong" because they have all working limbs, so they want to get some amputated. Or people who are bipolar or schizophrenic.

We don't just write those people off as "who they are". We try to treat their mental disorder through therapy and/or medication. I don't think we should regard people with Gender Dysphoria much differently.

As long as hormone therapy and surgery are the most effective ways to treat them, fine. But I don't think we should stop trying to learn and repair whatever has gone wrong in their brain to cause the dysphoria between their actual body and their mind's self-image.

The only reason we treat bipolar and schizophrenia symptomatically is because those symptoms often come with significant occupational dysfunction that causes undue distress. The pharmacologic and behavioral interventional treatment modalities address these symptoms.

Gender dysphoria is only considered a mental disorder in the same manner such that the discrepancy between their gender identity and sex recorded at birth are different and this causes undue distress. As such, treating them with HRT or SRS helps address this and reduces dysphoria.

To say otherwise would be imparting values onto patients, which is a huge no-no in medicine. What is the moral difference between "fixing" what's wrong in a patient's brain that causes them to identify differently versus "fixing" a homosexual person?

Perhaps we can fix certain political ideologies as well. See the slippery slope here? Where do you draw the line?

Do you really think there are no values being promoted in medicine? Pointing out the examples of homosexuals is actually very relevant. The fact that homosexuality, for better or worse, was removed from the DSM is at least in some part a political process, where a certain set of values triumphed over others within mainstream medicine. All classifications of mental disorders are implementations of values stemming from a given society.
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Tmk posted...

The body can malfunction as well. Plenty of people are born with things wrong about their body.

So the question remains: why side with the body over the brain?

Because in this case gender dysphoria is caused by the brain not the body.
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No
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