Current Events > Cops arrest nurse because she refused to draw blood from an unconscious patient

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihQ1-LQOkns


America yall
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obey the law unless you are responsible for upholding the law, then FUCK the law!
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I hope this becomes national news, and I hope this cop gets shitcanned. Awful.
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There's probably more to this story.

Also if a doctor ordered a serum ethanol panel on an unconscious patient, the nurse either must do it or find a nurse who will. Ethanol poisoning is potentially lethal. Refusing to draw labs on a sick patient is really bad.
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why the fuck did he think he could do a blood draw without a warrant.
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lilORANG posted...

why the fuck did he think he could do a blood draw without a warrant.

If they're in a hospital and a doctor orders it, yes obviously.

We don't ask unconscious and potentially unstable patients if they're OK with us getting labs.
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Coffeebeanz posted...

There's probably more to this story.

Also if a doctor ordered a serum ethanol panel on an unconscious patient, the nurse either must do it or find a nurse who will. Ethanol poisoning is potentially lethal. Refusing to draw labs on a sick patient is really bad.

http://www.dailyitem.com/news/supreme-court-says-police-need-warrant-to-draw-blood/article_43bce910-3d27-11e6-b174-271e3bd896a5.html

Also as far as we can tell, no doctor ordered it and it sounds like the person on the phone was her supervisor who was also saying that it was against hospital policy.
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Not enough details. If this was someone trying to steal a pint donation for Harvey, heart may have been in the right place but I agree with the nurse.
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justaguy3492 posted...

Coffeebeanz posted...

There's probably more to this story.

Also if a doctor ordered a serum ethanol panel on an unconscious patient, the nurse either must do it or find a nurse who will. Ethanol poisoning is potentially lethal. Refusing to draw labs on a sick patient is really bad.

http://www.dailyitem.com/news/supreme-court-says-police-need-warrant-to-draw-blood/article_43bce910-3d27-11e6-b174-271e3bd896a5.html

Not the same. They were conscious and not hospitalized. The original story TC posted is about an unconscious intoxicated patient. A doctor doesn't need a warrant to draw labs on such a patient and a nurse that refuses is not doing their job.
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Coffeebeanz posted...

If they're in a hospital and a doctor orders it, yes obviously.

a doctor didn't order it and cops need warrants to secure blood draws without consent. Literally every cop takes a course on this in the academy.
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Coffeebeanz posted...

Not the same. They were conscious and not hospitalized.

Doesn't matter if it's the same situation the law is the law. Police must get a warrant to draw blood if the patient doesn't consent.
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lilORANG posted...

Coffeebeanz posted...

If they're in a hospital and a doctor orders it, yes obviously.

a doctor didn't order it and cops need warrants to secure blood draws without consent. Literally every cop takes a course on this in the academy.

They're literally in a hospital. Hell you can see the HIPAA NPI disposal bins in the background.
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Coffeebeanz posted...

They're literally in a hospital.

you think cops can violate the 4th amendment because they are in a hospital? Stick to your smartphone gimmick.
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"There's probably more to this story."

>proceeds to make up the story he wants.

You show me a doctor ordering it and fine, but from that video (the only evidence we have) the cop is asking for the blood sample and arrests her when she refuses.
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lilORANG posted...

Coffeebeanz posted...

They're literally in a hospital.

you think cops can violate the 4th amendment because they are in a hospital? Stick to your smartphone gimmick.

Doctors can. We don't know if a doctor ordered it because we aren't given enough information. Excuse me for not joining the mob mentality generation.
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people are reporting on it now
http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/08/31/utah-nurse-arrested-after-complying-with-hospital-policy-that-bars-taking-blood-from-unconscious-victim/
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justaguy3492 posted...

"There's probably more to this story."

>proceeds to make up the story he wants.

You show me a doctor ordering it and fine, but from that video (the only evidence we have) the cop is asking for the blood sample and arrests her when she refuses.

I didn't make up anything. In my very first post I said we don't have enough information to make a reasonable conclusion. Then I explained a scenario where this would be justified. Not saying that's what happened, but we don't have enough of the story to say it isn't.
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Coffeebeanz posted...

Doctors can. We don't know if a doctor ordered it because we aren't given enough information. Excuse me for not joining the mob mentality generation.

Sure, the doctor can order it, but they can't give it to the police. You know, the 4th amendment and all. You should know this if you are a doctor.
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Coffeebeanz posted...

Doctors can. We don't know if a doctor ordered it because we aren't given enough information.

doctors can because they are supposed to save lives. 1) it doesn't seem like a blood draw was a necessary medical procedure in these circumstances, 2) even if the nurse did take the sample the cops wouldn't be entitled to it. The hospital would have a duty to protect their patient's info.

Cops need a warrant to get blood.
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Why wont people just do what the cops say without trying making a fuss? They have a gun and a badge, that's not a fight you'r'e gonna win.
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tremain07 posted...

Why wont people just do what the cops say without trying making a fuss? They have a gun and a badge, that's not a fight you'r'e gonna win.

well she may have been fired for violating hospital policy. She had what sounded like a supervisor or in house counsel for the hospital on the phone telling her not to do it.
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Honestly, you should always be arrested/dealt with if you refuse an order from a officer of the law.

I don't get this new trend of, "I don't agree with the cops so fuck them!" thinking
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tremain07 posted...

Why wont people just do what the cops say without trying making a fuss? They have a gun and a badge, that's not a fight you'r'e gonna win.

lmao
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lilORANG posted...

Coffeebeanz posted...

Doctors can. We don't know if a doctor ordered it because we aren't given enough information.

doctors can because they are supposed to save lives. 1) it doesn't seem like a blood draw was a necessary medical procedure in these circumstances, 2) even if the nurse did take the sample the cops wouldn't be entitled to it. The hospital would have a duty to protect their patient's info.

Cops need a warrant to get blood.

Any unconscious patient will have labs drawn if they're in the hospital. Not ordering a serum ethanol level would actually be malpractice. I can't imagine a scenario where the cops drop off an unconscious inebriated person to the ER and a serum drug screen / ethanol level isn't ordered.

So unless the cops literally dragged this dude to a random nurse, bypassing the ER, and demanded a blood draw, there MUST be more to the story.

That said, they are certainly under no obligation to (and in fact, legally should not) share that information with the police.
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so if we dont know what happened why is this news and why is this a topic?
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So this is a case of cops wanting the blood then. Yeah fuck that cop

Fin_Dawg_004 posted...

tremain07 posted...

Why wont people just do what the cops say without trying making a fuss? They have a gun and a badge, that's not a fight you'r'e gonna win.

lmao

Okay, go ahead, give a cop any reason to be on guard around you or to arrest you, guess who they work for, guess who sides with them 90 percent of the time and guess who ultimately avoids punishment because of the blue wall? it's a pointless fight that will likely get you dead so just do what they say and hope they leave you alone afterwards, it's the safest bet.
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Coffeebeanz posted...

That said, they are certainly under no obligation to (and in fact, legally should not) share that information with the police.

So you're admitting you're wrong then?
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tremain07 posted...

Fin_Dawg_004 posted...

tremain07 posted...

Why wont people just do what the cops say without trying making a fuss? They have a gun and a badge, that's not a fight you'r'e gonna win.

lmao

Okay, go ahead, give a cop any reason to be on guard around you or to arrest you, guess who they work for, guess who sides with them 90 percent of the time and guess who ultimately avoids punishment because of the blue wall? it's a pointless fight that will likely get you dead so just do what they say and hope they leave you alone afterwards, it's the safest bet.

what if it got her fired? she has to weight the costs of losing her job over a night in jail
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justaguy3492 posted...

Coffeebeanz posted...

That said, they are certainly under no obligation to (and in fact, legally should not) share that information with the police.

So you're admitting you're wrong then?

Are we talking about drawing blood or sharing information with law enforcement?

Because she is being arrested for refusing to draw blood. In a hospital ER. As in, a chemically intoxicated unconscious patient is not having labs drawn because a nurse doesn't want to.

That only goes with your argument if the cops found a way to literally bypass a doctor and demand the lab straight from a random nurse, which is insane.

No, the hospital does not have to share information with law enforcement. Yes, the nurse is obligated to draw labs if a doctor orders it. The context of this scenario is everything.
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"Unconcious" is a completely irrelevant details

The actual punchline is that a cop can't order labs and, in a hospital, doesnt have authority over medical professionals.
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daftpunk_mk5 posted...

"Unconcious" is a completely irrelevant details

The actual punchline is that a cop can't order labs and, in a hospital, doesnt have authority over medical professionals.

And you're assuming that the cops bypassed the ER, got to the actual medical area (there's PHI bins everywhere), bypassed all the doctors and demanded a random nurse to draw labs on a patient.

If that's what actually happened, then you have an argument. I suspect the nurse got an order to draw labs from a physician and refused to do so based on misinterpreting the hospital's policy on drawing ethanol levels on patients who are arrested but not being admitted for treatment.
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BootyGif posted...

tremain07 posted...

Fin_Dawg_004 posted...

tremain07 posted...

Why wont people just do what the cops say without trying making a fuss? They have a gun and a badge, that's not a fight you'r'e gonna win.

lmao

Okay, go ahead, give a cop any reason to be on guard around you or to arrest you, guess who they work for, guess who sides with them 90 percent of the time and guess who ultimately avoids punishment because of the blue wall? it's a pointless fight that will likely get you dead so just do what they say and hope they leave you alone afterwards, it's the safest bet.

what if it got her fired? she has to weight the costs of losing her job over a night in jail

Why would it get her fired? She would be cooperating with law enforcement like a good civilian is suppose to, they can't fire her for that, now she's in jail and shit like that will definitely stain her career as a nurse for decades to come, nobody wants to hire a felon, it's why they all end up homeless, repeat offenders and or dead.
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Coffeebeanz posted...

justaguy3492 posted...

Coffeebeanz posted...

That said, they are certainly under no obligation to (and in fact, legally should not) share that information with the police.

So you're admitting you're wrong then?

Are we talking about drawing blood or sharing information with law enforcement?

Because she is being arrested for refusing to draw blood. In a hospital ER. As in, a chemically intoxicated unconscious patient is not having labs drawn because a nurse doesn't want to.

That only goes with your argument if the cops found a way to literally bypass a doctor and demand the lab straight from a random nurse, which is insane.

No, the hospital does not have to share information with law enforcement. Yes, the nurse is obligated to draw labs if a doctor orders it. The context of this scenario is everything.

Why are you making up scenarios? This topic is about law enforcement. Everyone is talking about law enforcement. How doctors and nurses do their job is irrelevant to what the cop is allowed to do. You're just arguing to argue.
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tremain07 posted...

BootyGif posted...

tremain07 posted...

Fin_Dawg_004 posted...

tremain07 posted...

Why wont people just do what the cops say without trying making a fuss? They have a gun and a badge, that's not a fight you'r'e gonna win.

lmao

Okay, go ahead, give a cop any reason to be on guard around you or to arrest you, guess who they work for, guess who sides with them 90 percent of the time and guess who ultimately avoids punishment because of the blue wall? it's a pointless fight that will likely get you dead so just do what they say and hope they leave you alone afterwards, it's the safest bet.

what if it got her fired? she has to weight the costs of losing her job over a night in jail

Why would it get her fired? She would be cooperating with law enforcement like a good civilian is suppose to, they can't fire her for that, now she's in jail and shit like that will definitely stain her career as a nurse for decades to come, nobody wants to hire a felon, it's why they all end up homeless, repeat offenders and or dead.

Lol, she won't be a felon. I doubt charges are even pressed, considering the cop is 100% in the wrong.
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Coffeebeanz posted...

Are we talking about drawing blood or sharing information with law enforcement?

Because she is being arrested for refusing to draw blood. In a hospital ER. As in, a chemically intoxicated unconscious patient is not having labs drawn because a nurse doesn't want to.

That only goes with your argument if the cops found a way to literally bypass a doctor and demand the lab straight from a random nurse, which is insane.

Did you even watch the video? The cop tells her to draw his blood. She says she can't because of hospital regs and he needs to obtain a warrant. He then arrests her for hindering prosecution. It's not about willingness to draw blood.

What would happen if she caved in and ended up giving it to the cop?

She would get fired.
She and the Hospital will be sued by the patent for malpractice
She most likely have her nursing license revoked, basically blacklisting her from any aand all nursing jobs.
ect
ect
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lilORANG posted...

Coffeebeanz posted...

justaguy3492 posted...

Coffeebeanz posted...

That said, they are certainly under no obligation to (and in fact, legally should not) share that information with the police.

So you're admitting you're wrong then?

Are we talking about drawing blood or sharing information with law enforcement?

Because she is being arrested for refusing to draw blood. In a hospital ER. As in, a chemically intoxicated unconscious patient is not having labs drawn because a nurse doesn't want to.

That only goes with your argument if the cops found a way to literally bypass a doctor and demand the lab straight from a random nurse, which is insane.

No, the hospital does not have to share information with law enforcement. Yes, the nurse is obligated to draw labs if a doctor orders it. The context of this scenario is everything.

Why are you making up scenarios? This topic is about law enforcement. Everyone is talking about law enforcement. How doctors and nurses do their job is irrelevant to what the cop is allowed to do. You're just arguing to argue.

It's not "arguing to argue". They are clearly past the waiting room in the ER. The patient is required to have an attending physician by this point. You're assuming that the cops are bypassing everyone and demanding labs to be drawn. We don't have enough information to say that. You're jumping to conclusions.

The end result is this:

If a physician ordered the labs for any legitimate medical reason: The nurse is in the wrong.

If no labs were ordered and the cops are just demanding an ethanol screen: The cops are in the wrong.

Either way, she wasn't arrested for failing to share the results of a lab (which she would have every right to do), she was being arrested for refusing to DRAW a lab. The question is who asked her to draw it - the cops or a physician.
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Coffeebeanz posted...

justaguy3492 posted...

Coffeebeanz posted...

That said, they are certainly under no obligation to (and in fact, legally should not) share that information with the police.

So you're admitting you're wrong then?

Are we talking about drawing blood or sharing information with law enforcement?

Because she is being arrested for refusing to draw blood. In a hospital ER. As in, a chemically intoxicated unconscious patient is not having labs drawn because a nurse doesn't want to.

That only goes with your argument if the cops found a way to literally bypass a doctor and demand the lab straight from a random nurse, which is insane.

No, the hospital does not have to share information with law enforcement. Yes, the nurse is obligated to draw labs if a doctor orders it. The context of this scenario is everything.

You haven't even read the article that was posted have you? Here I'll help!

In a written report, Payne said he was responding to a request from another police department to get the blood sample, to determine if the patient had any chemical substances in his system at the time of the crash. Payne explained the “exigent circumstances and implied consent law” to Wubbels, but she said “her police won't allow me to obtain the blood sample without a warrant,” his report says.
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Coffeebeanz posted...

lilORANG posted...

Coffeebeanz posted...

justaguy3492 posted...

Coffeebeanz posted...

That said, they are certainly under no obligation to (and in fact, legally should not) share that information with the police.

So you're admitting you're wrong then?

Are we talking about drawing blood or sharing information with law enforcement?

Because she is being arrested for refusing to draw blood. In a hospital ER. As in, a chemically intoxicated unconscious patient is not having labs drawn because a nurse doesn't want to.

That only goes with your argument if the cops found a way to literally bypass a doctor and demand the lab straight from a random nurse, which is insane.

No, the hospital does not have to share information with law enforcement. Yes, the nurse is obligated to draw labs if a doctor orders it. The context of this scenario is everything.

Why are you making up scenarios? This topic is about law enforcement. Everyone is talking about law enforcement. How doctors and nurses do their job is irrelevant to what the cop is allowed to do. You're just arguing to argue.

It's not "arguing to argue". They are clearly past the waiting room in the ER. The patient is required to have an attending physician by this point. You're assuming that the cops are bypassing everyone and demanding labs to be drawn. We don't have enough information to say that. You're jumping to conclusions.

Omg, stop
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tremain07 posted...

Why wont people just do what the cops say without trying making a fuss? They have a gun and a badge, that's not a fight you'r'e gonna win.

"just shut up and take it and let them do whatever they want"...no thanks.

TheVipaGTS posted...

tremain07 posted...

Why wont people just do what the cops say without trying making a fuss? They have a gun and a badge, that's not a fight you'r'e gonna win.

"just shut up and take it and let them do whatever they want"...no thanks.

seems to be a motto in this country lately
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You haven't even read the article that was posted have you? Here I'll help!

In a written report, Payne said he was responding to a request from another police department to get the blood sample, to determine if the patient had any chemical substances in his system at the time of the crash. Payne explained the “exigent circumstances and implied consent law” to Wubbels, but she said “her police won't allow me to obtain the blood sample without a warrant,” his report says.

Look, I work in an ER every day. If you bring an unconscious patient to the ER, that patient cannot leave the hospital until they're stabilized and conscious. You're telling me they drove an unconscious patient to some random hospital, bypassed the waiting room, dragged him up to a random nurse and demanded a serum ethanol level, all while the hospital apparently has no intention of admitting or treating a patient they are required by law to treat?

That's completely insane.

Holy shit how do you not understand this? The patient is clearly and obviously already admitted to the hospital - by virtue of being unconscious and intoxicated, if nothing else.

If he's admitted to the hospital, you can bet your ass an ER doc ordered routine labs.

So yes, some context WOULD be nice.
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Coffeebeanz posted...

You haven't even read the article that was posted have you? Here I'll help!

In a written report, Payne said he was responding to a request from another police department to get the blood sample, to determine if the patient had any chemical substances in his system at the time of the crash. Payne explained the “exigent circumstances and implied consent law” to Wubbels, but she said “her police won't allow me to obtain the blood sample without a warrant,” his report says.

Look, I work in an ER every day. If you bring an unconscious patient to the ER, that patient cannot leave the hospital until they're stabilized and conscious. You're telling me they drove an unconscious patient to some random hospital, bypassed the waiting room, dragged him up to a random nurse and demanded a serum ethanol level, all while the hospital apparently has no intention of admitting or treating a patient they are required by law to treat?

That's completely insane.

Holy shit how do you not understand this? The patient is clearly and obviously already admitted to the hospital - by virtue of being unconscious and intoxicated, if nothing else.

If he's admitted to the hospital, you can bet your ass an ER doc ordered routine labs.

So yes, some context WOULD be nice.

...ok, but a few posts ago you literally said that legally speaking they shouldn't give the sample to the officer. There's no context needed, the officer HIMSELF said he wanted the sample to take to another department. She wasn't arrested for failing to to follow a doctors order, she was arrested for failing to comply with the cops (illegal) order.
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Coffeebeanz posted...

Look, I work in an ER every day. If you bring an unconscious patient to the ER, that patient cannot leave the hospital until they're stabilized and conscious. You're telling me they drove an unconscious patient to some random hospital, bypassed the waiting room, dragged him up to a random nurse and demanded a serum ethanol level, all while the hospital apparently has no intention of admitting or treating a patient they are required by law to treat?

That's completely insane.

Holy shit how do you not understand this? The patient is clearly and obviously already admitted to the hospital - by virtue of being unconscious and intoxicated, if nothing else.

If he's admitted to the hospital, you can bet your ass an ER doc ordered routine labs.

So yes, some context WOULD be nice.

WATCH.THE.DAMN.VIDEO.AND.READ.THE.DAMN.STORY! Jesus H. Christ

/meltdown
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So if every nurse denied taking blood at that hospital would they arrest all of them?
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If most of the general scenario was caught on camera, cop was in the wrong.

Nurse WAS obeying the laws; hospital laws. She was following medical care policy. Which trump pissy ass police officer's in more typical situations. Doesn't matter if the person unconscious is a potential criminal. It's illegal to just hand over records and blood samples merely on an officer's say-so. Medical staff can lose their license and be charged with crimes just for doing that.

This wasn't a case of nurse vs police rebellion.
She was literally following established medical guidelines, the law.
The cop, however, broke a couple of them himself....

And worse, he acted like he didn't know about the laws protecting medical information (a law officer's responsibility, they're SUPPOSED TO be at least familiar with that before they go charging in with handcuffs). He could have come back later with a warrant, etc. Instead he decided to be a power-jerking asshole and strong arm a staff member who was just a representative. It's pathetic.

Clean-cut wrongful arrest.
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Obviously if this is simply that she's refusing to give the lab results to the cop, the cops are blatantly in the wrong.

But the title of the topic is "refused to draw blood", which raises the question of who asked her to do it, and why.
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Coffeebeanz posted...

Obviously if this is simply that she's refusing to give the lab results to the cop, the cops are blatantly in the wrong.

But the title of the topic is "refused to draw blood", which raises the question of who asked her to do it, and why.

DirkDiggles posted...

WATCH.THE.DAMN.VIDEO.AND.READ.THE.DAMN.STORY! Jesus H. Christ

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Fin_Dawg_004 posted...

Coffeebeanz posted...

Obviously if this is simply that she's refusing to give the lab results to the cop, the cops are blatantly in the wrong.

But the title of the topic is "refused to draw blood", which raises the question of who asked her to do it, and why.

DirkDiggles posted...

WATCH.THE.DAMN.VIDEO.AND.READ.THE.DAMN.STORY! Jesus H. Christ

I've done both. They don't give enough information.
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Coffeebeanz posted...

Obviously if this is simply that she's refusing to give the lab results to the cop, the cops are blatantly in the wrong.

But the title of the topic is "refused to draw blood", which raises the question of who asked her to do it, and why.

If you're trolling, you're doing a phenomenal job because I am genuinely irked by the fact that you haven't taken the time to read the article posted OR google this and read one of the many other articles written about it. The cop himself, in a written prepared report, literally states that he wanted it because the guy was suspected of driving under the influence.
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