Board 8 > I just went to the worst local smash tournament ever

(+) Yeah! (+)

I wouldn't really agree defensive play is "pretty much always better" than offense in fighters. It really largely depends on how many options there are available to you when the other guy is down, and the overall speed of the game. Stuff like Smash has almost nothing for you to do after knocking an opponent down, so defense crushes offense. Stuff like Marvel has all sorts of traps built into the movesets and the assist system, so I would argue being on the offense is actually better in that game in general.
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Lopen posted...

I wouldn't really agree defensive play is "pretty much always better" than offense in fighters. It really largely depends on how many options there are available to you when the other guy is down, and the overall speed of the game. Stuff like Smash has almost nothing for you to do after knocking an opponent down, so defense crushes offense. Stuff like Marvel has all sorts of traps built into the movesets and the assist system, so I would argue being on the offense is actually better in that game in general.

MvC2 was largely dominated by runaway Storm and Sentinel's "I can step on you from over here", with some Cable in there, and only Magneto and the rare Strider being dedicated rush down threats. MvC3 has seen Morrigan's fireball shenanigans and Zero's zero commitment nearly full screen hit confirms be used to great effect. And in Smash, 64 has no defensive options worth a damn and is very defensive, and Melee isn't too dissimilar. If anything the fact that you get destroyed so badly for being opened up encourages people to play characters that stay well the fuck out of harms way just as much as it encourages people to play the ones that do the destroying.

I mean the basic issue more than anything is that offense inherently requires you to do things that are bigger commitments than defense does, which tends to make defense safer even in games where it isn't strictly better
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I think you're confusing "integrates pressure from long range" with "defense." Playing Morrigan "defensively" isn't actually very good. Ideally you're putting fireballs in such a way where chip damage is forced, whenever the good Morrigan players have a dude in a position where they're fireball spamming in a way that you can actually escape it they're not usually doing too well and it's a desperation thing. Marvel's all about putting stupid damage fields down so when the guy is getting up he has to be blocking and can't hit you back and you're basically trying to screw his blocking up.

The difference is in Marvel games the fireball patterns are so stupid that you can actually do offensive projectiles whereas in something like Smash you're not actually going to kill a dude with this kinda stuff without them screwing up.
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That definition means there's literally no such thing as a defensive play style, since literally all non-rushdown tactics in fighting games are about doing damage at a safe distance. I don't mean that holding down back (or shield, in Smash) is unbeatable.

Offensive projectiles aren't exactly unknown in Smash either, so I'm not sure that point holds up. In both series, the winning play at tournaments has been about staying out of range and harassing with safe pokes/projectiles until the opponent fucks up more often than it has been about trying to get in uninvited.
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Most fighters don't have you literally block locked from projectile strings is the difference. It's just not usually something that's viable in the system. A Morrigan who's doing her thing right isn't actually needing to "run away." It's if they screwed up that you need to run away-- and oftentime that isn't happening either because the Morrigan's projectile grid requires so much investment that if it's broken through you often got punished directly for it. It's not really that safe despite being full screen with all of Marvel's mobility options, and full screen attack options-- if you screw it up you're likely getting hit for it, or in a position where your opponent is immediately putting heavy pressure on you.

Defensive play is more like, in SF4, putting down fireballs for mild chip as a neutral option while keeping your distance. It's something you can't really punish because even if you don't time it right, they can't really get in on you very easily as a punish. Generally the "punishment" for screwing projectiles in that game is them closing the distance on you a bit more and then getting in a range they can actually punish you. And Smash is even worse in this regard than SF4. That's the difference.
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Like if you want an example of actual defensive projectile game in Marvel 3 it's not Morrigan.

It's like MODOK or Arthur or Rocket. These are guys who can harass you at full screen yet can do so with low enough recovery times and/or enough traps in play that you're given options to get in but it's not usually going to work. Which I mean, this can work-- people have made it work, but it's not exactly something that's popular or inherently strong either because yeah mobility is just so strong in Marvel 3.
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Lopen posted...

Stuff like Smash has almost nothing for you to do after knocking an opponent down, so defense crushes offense.

Read how they get up. They can only neutral get up, attack get up, or roll left and right. Which is an amazing amount of defensive options compared to most fighting games, but still not that crazy.
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It's crazy enough to give defense an inherent and significant edge in the game mechanics where it doesn't in most fighters imo, particularly when considering cornering a guy is not really a thing that's as viable given the amount of space there is to work with.

You need to react to the downed guy correctly to keep the offense going, in most fighters the downed guy needs to correctly react to you to keep the offense from continuing if you're playing offensively. So it's just easier to play defensively in general whereas in most fighters it's more neutral in that regard.
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Knockdowns in Smash aren't even vaguely comparable to other fighting games in importance though - aside from a few specific cases of characters who can actually get mileage out of it (like Melee Falcon), continuing offensive pressure in Smash is about keeping people in the air, not letting them hit the ground. And its only in Brawl where that isn't particularly strong - being juggled in 64 is way worse than being knocked down in all but the most vortex heavy fighting games since you have barely any options at all, for example. Like Melee is a game where the offensive pressure and conversions are extremely strong, certainly enough so to compare to the MvC series, and defensive options aren't all that strong. In practice, it doesn't end up being a rushdown fest very often.
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I get mileage out of it all the time in smash 4.
At low to mid percents throws, stuffing out short hops, and even my (Bowser's) jab leads into it.

But yeah catching landings and ledge guarding is def most important.
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I actually feel like keeping enemies in the air in Smash is more like a combo or zoning (depending on damage percentages) in a more traditional fighter and that Smash has no real equivalent to okizeme, which is inherently part of what makes the game more defensive by nature.
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It's still like an okizeme in function. The one being juggled has much more limited options in comparison and a smallish window of time to pick them.

Unless you think that's overgeneralizing what okizeme means. In Smash 4 juggling is not really a combo. Even Cloud has to read air dodges or frame trap to keep them up.
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Emeraldegg posted...

How does it punish aggression? If there's no time, it's not like there's something keeping a player who wants to be aggressive from doing so

Basically, when there's no timer, there's nothing forcing the opponent who is behind to approach and try to take back the lead. They just continually stay back and try to wait for the opponent to get impatient so then they make a mistake and the player in 2nd gets to take back the lead that way. With a timer, you force interaction. Without, you can't guarantee the players are even gonna go after each other if they're both campy players and that's all they want to do
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The big difference is in a failed okizeme check you generally eat a ton of damage and immediately get set up for another choice that if you screw up can lead to getting drilled hard again. In smash if you read wrong you get hit again for a relatively much smaller amount of damage, which generally leads to another way out of it before taking another smaller chunk of damage. Whether this is better or worse is up to you but it does make poking relatively stronger as a viable damage option, which in turn makes the game more defensive.

So yeah I'd call it closer to zoning in function, personally.
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pjbasis posted...

I get mileage out of it all the time in smash 4.
At low to mid percents throws, stuffing out short hops, and even my (Bowser's) jab leads into it.

Oh yeah there's still plenty of time it comes up (especially in Brawl and 4 where jab locks are a thing if people don't tech) but in general you're not aiming for knock downs as your main offense like in a lot of other games.

Lopen posted...

I actually feel like keeping enemies in the air in Smash is more like a combo or zoning (depending on damage percentages) in a more traditional fighter and that Smash has no real equivalent to okizeme, which is inherently part of what makes the game more defensive by nature.

This applies to 64 and *maybe* Melee but definitely not Brawl or 4. It works a lot like okizeme does, being based on reads and option coverage to get around the opponent's defensive options. Smash 4 Fox doing up air, fast falling for the auto cancel and then up tilting to catch an air dodge plays about the same role in the game as safe jump OS uppercut type things.
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Smash's main goal is dependent on what character you play. If you play Roy in 4, you'd much rather force tech situations and get up options than juggles on opponents above you. If you play Cloud, you want them above you to juggle with up air.

Also, it all boils down to having stage control in the end. If the opponent is above you or off stage or they're being forced to choose a roll option or tech option, they're in disadvantage. Even if they're pushed near the ledge but they're still on stage, they're in disadvantage. Being in the center of the stage with your opponent away from the center of the stage and away from having all of their options is what matters, and that encompasses juggles, ledge traps, tech situations, etc

At least in my opinion
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Yeah if you want a real experience you need to go to an actual event run by the competitive community with at least 30 people. Most tournaments in game shops with weird rules or non-standard entry fees are first-time TOs trying to not suck at running tournaments. It's harder than it looks, I have 7 staff members under me just for our 200-man monthly. Newbies underestimate logistics.

To other points in the topic:
Community is very hit and miss, depends on region, but calls it trash is...fine. I'm aware

Find your local community's FB group (everything the 8 regions around me runs on FB) and get in that way. It steers you better than some back alley tournament that's actually just a Russian guy harvesting kidneys.

Play more Bowser
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Did everyone smell?

(Just asking)
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ViviffTheMobile posted...

Play more Bowser

I have been! He's so much fun and has so many good ways to kill

Also, this weekly that I'm complaining about has been running for 130+ singles tournaments, and there was about 30 people there. The only employee in the store running the thing is apparently the only full time employee that works there (because it's a shady garage on the edge of town) and he started it up himself all those weeks and months ago.

Please play me online sometime, I want to get whooped and learn! We'll even do Bowser dittos and see how I fare.

Hardcore_Adult posted...

Did everyone smell?

(Just asking)

No.
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we should have another b8 tournament
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Community can be trash or great depending on area. I don't play much anymore but when I did there were a lot of assholes and a lot of great people.
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this is every local smash tournament
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transcience posted...

this seems somewhat exclusive to smash tournaments for whatever reason. maybe it's something with the game - but they always seem horribly run or behind. I won't claim to know why or say that it's a bad game or anything like that.

the smash scene has always been really weird. the street fighter scene seems normal in comparison. again, no idea why. I think it takes a special kind of person to find competitive smash whereas it's right in your face with a more traditional fighting game.

You know exactly why but you're too nice to say it.

This topic reads as justifying losing. You did say you have never been to a local tournament before but this is how they generally are. Venues vary. Opponents have a range of personalities. Very regularly they are behind schedule. And, they are a test of patience and endurance.

Just sounds like you don't like the tournament scene.
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Corrik posted...

This topic reads as justifying losing. You did say you have never been to a local tournament before but this is how they generally are. Venues vary. Opponents have a range of personalities. Very regularly they are behind schedule. And, they are a test of patience and endurance.

Just sounds like you don't like the tournament scene.

I've gone to 3 local tournaments before. Two of them were weeklies, and one of them was a regional. I enjoyed my experience at all 3 of them even though I lost 0-2 at the regional (which was my first one) and went 3-2 at the other two (which were weeklies). I may have said I haven't been to THIS local tournament before but I have actually said in this very topic that I've been to a few other locals before.

read:
Solioxrz362 posted...

So, I've been to Shockwave (aka the GOOD local weekly tournament nearby) twice before, and both times it was a good experience. There were some of the same assholes there, but oh well.

Not justifying losing here... just said I didn't enjoy this one tournament because it was, by my account, a poorly run event in a bad area with annoying people.
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Why would he make a topic to justify losing to people who didn't even know he was competing?
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Why would he make a topic to justify losing to people who didn't even know he was competing?

To vent and justify the losing in his venting. I have been to many local tournaments. Many were in stores, many on houses, many in video game designed businesses that did not last cuz they never do. I mean they vary. The major tournaments I went to MLG Meadowlands MLG Dallas IPL3 Atlantic City were better venues had monetary backing to put on a good show but was still rife with tons of smelling people who didn't know what deodorant was. We joked at MLG they should get a deodorant sponsor then lo and behold old spice came to the front. You have tons of varying personalities. Some were courteous. Some were loud and annoying.

Hell look at FilipinoChamp at fucking Evo. He is one of the most annoying fuckers ever.

And all 3 majors were way behind schedule at varying points.
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Corrik posted...

To vent and justify the losing in his venting.

That is not what I was doing at all. I'm fine with losing. Helps me learn how to play better when I lose and I know what I did wrong.

I really hated playing at that one particular local because the whole thing just sucked in every way. By the end of it, I didn't even want to be there anymore and I wanted to leave.
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Solioxrz362 posted...

Corrik posted...

To vent and justify the losing in his venting.

That is not what I was doing at all. I'm fine with losing. Helps me learn how to play better when I lose and I know what I did wrong.

I really hated playing at that one particular local because the whole thing just sucked in every way. By the end of it, I didn't even want to be there anymore and I wanted to leave.

Okay. I just am saying a lot are like that. Just gotta focus on your game is all.
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Corrik posted...

Solioxrz362 posted...

Corrik posted...

To vent and justify the losing in his venting.

That is not what I was doing at all. I'm fine with losing. Helps me learn how to play better when I lose and I know what I did wrong.

I really hated playing at that one particular local because the whole thing just sucked in every way. By the end of it, I didn't even want to be there anymore and I wanted to leave.

Okay. I just am saying a lot are like that. Just gotta focus on your game is all.

of course, water is wet.
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