Current Events > Guns or Trans?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Which issue do you care more about?
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What
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Traps
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The one that's in the Constitution
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Man, I'm not falling for this. I already lost 6 karmas because I say stuff that's unsavory to the public.

Guns.
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Bullet_Wing posted...

Are guns even an issue right now?

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/367
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/38
Those are just on the top ten most viewed bills.
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Bullet_Wing posted...

Are guns even an issue right now?

When one of the major parties includes banning firearms based on how scary they look and removing a Constitutional right from people on secret government watch lists in their official party platform, yes, they're still an issue.
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One is a grand delusion on a societal level, so that one.
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Trans issues, since we are people, despite popular belief from the red side.
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Callixtus posted...

One is a grand delusion on a societal level, so that one.

?
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Howl posted...

Callixtus posted...

One is a grand delusion on a societal level, so that one.

?

Option 2
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Trans = humans
Guns = pieces of metal

Shouldn't be difficult
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Howl posted...

Callixtus posted...

One is a grand delusion on a societal level, so that one.

?

He is talking about how deluded people are that guns promote safety. I completely agree, and have no idea why it has so influenced our society either.
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The Declaration of Independence asserts an unalienable right to the "pursuit of happiness," which I believe is the category under which most transgender human rights issues should be classified.

The Declaration of Independence also represents the moral foundation upon which the US Constitution rests. The 2nd Amendment is one of the highest-ranking negative liberties enumerated in our founding documents, but it still doesn't outrank the positive rights outlined in the Declaration of Independence, ethically speaking.

Of course, legally speaking, 2A has firmer standing than transgender human rights at the moment.
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AlephZero posted...

Bullet_Wing posted...

Are guns even an issue right now?

When one of the major parties includes banning firearms based on how scary they look and removing a Constitutional right from people on secret government watch lists in their official party platform, yes, they're still an issue.

Liberals - "Nobody on a watchlist should be allowed to own a firearm"
Liberals - *puts people whom buy guns on a watchlist and then proceed to complain about people on watchlists buying guns, in-order to push their communist agenda*
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Bullet_Wing posted...

Are guns even an issue right now?

The gun fever is still hot
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Polycosm posted...

The Declaration of Independence asserts an unalienable right to the "pursuit of happiness," which I believe is the category under which most transgender human rights issues should be classified.

The Declaration of Independence represents the moral foundation upon which the US Constitution rests. The 2nd Amendment is one of the highest-ranking negative liberties enumerated in our founding documents, but it still doesn't outrank the positive rights outline in the Declaration of Independence, ethically speaking.

Of course, legally speaking, 2A has firmer standing than transgender human rights at the moment.

The problem is the pursuit of happiness isn't supposed to negatively impact others. Forcing people to use a person's preferred pronouns at threat of legal action and altering insurance rates to cover unsubstantiated surgeries pushes that "pursuit" directly into the realm of Orwell's 1984.
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Guns man. Trans are less than 1% of the population.

s0nicfan posted...

The problem is the pursuit of happiness isn't supposed to negatively impact others. Forcing people to use a person's preferred pronouns at threat of legal action and altering insurance rates to cover unsubstantiated surgeries pushes that "pursuit" directly into the realm of Orwell's 1984.

laughharder.mp4
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Butterfiles posted...

s0nicfan posted...

The problem is the pursuit of happiness isn't supposed to negatively impact others. Forcing people to use a person's preferred pronouns at threat of legal action and altering insurance rates to cover unsubstantiated surgeries pushes that "pursuit" directly into the realm of Orwell's 1984.

laughharder.mp4

You can't compel speech. Period.
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UrethaFranklin posted...

Guns man. Trans are less than 1% of the population.

... guns are 0% of the population
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Bullet_Wing posted...

Followup: Do either of those bills or policies discussed have any traction currently? With a Red Congress, I don't think gun control is anything to worry about right now.

Literally the day after Scalise was shot, the bill the HPA had been bundled into was supposed to have a hearing until they had to postpone it due to Scalise being down. There was also talk about the CCR and legislation to allow conceal carry in DC because most of the congressmen there had a permit or were allowed to carry in their home state, but couldn't because DC is a shithole which already had been known to violate the constitution and had some of their laws declared unconstitutional in the past 9 years.
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UrethaFranklin posted...

Guns man. Trans are less than 1% of the population.

You are presented with a blue button and a red button.... both operating trap doors.

.... the red holds all the world's guns and the blue holds all the world's trans people over a bottomless pit, you'd push the blue button to save the guns and let all the transgender people fall, since it is only just one percent of the population, correct?

I mean, we are just a fraction, right? So you would?
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Sayoria posted...

UrethaFranklin posted...

Guns man. Trans are less than 1% of the population.

You are presented with a blue button and a red button.... both operating trap doors.

.... the red holds all the world's guns and the blue holds all the world's trans people over a bottomless pit, you'd push the blue button to save the guns and let all the transgender people fall, since it is only just one percent of the population, correct?

I mean, we are just a fraction, right? So you would?

I......don't think this is what the topic meant
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s0nicfan posted...

You can't compel speech. Period.

I agree wholeheartedly with you that the government cannot compel speech.

At the same time, I don't believe that most transgender advocacy is concerned with pushing speech codes backed by the threat of force, although there is a coordinated effort to change our cultural/linguistic norms, and that's totally fair game as long as it's not compulsory in public spaces. The big issues in the news lately have more to do with participation in sports, bathrooms, and military service.
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Sayoria posted...

UrethaFranklin posted...

Guns man. Trans are less than 1% of the population.

You are presented with a blue button and a red button.... both operating trap doors.

.... the red holds all the world's guns and the blue holds all the world's trans people over a bottomless pit, you'd push the blue button to save the guns and let all the transgender people fall, since it is only just one percent of the population, correct?

I mean, we are just a fraction, right? So you would?

Ok, everyone gets it, youre trans. You're just as bad as gunpla.

Gun issues = taking away guns. This is bad. I live in the country. When an animal comes to attack our animals, or us, it's very useful to have a gun.

Trans issues = we wanna piss in the girls washrooms.

Im not advocating the death of trans people here, its simple and youre jumping to conclusions.

Thinking the Dems want to ban guns is silly.
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Polycosm posted...

s0nicfan posted...

You can't compel speech. Period.

I agree wholeheartedly with you that the government cannot compel speech.

At the same time, I don't believe that most transgender advocacy is concerned with pushing speech codes backed by the threat of force, although there is a coordinated effort to change our cultural/linguistic norms, and that's totally fair game as long as it's not compulsory in public spaces. The big issues in the news lately have more to do with participation in sports, bathrooms, and military service.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/06/16/canada-passes-law-criminalizing-use-of-wrong-gender-pronouns/

Or from a more legit site:
http://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/canadian-lawmakers-pass-bill-extending-transgender-protections-n773421
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UrethaFranklin posted...

You're just as bad as gunpla.

Inb4 say
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Tropicalwood posted...

AlephZero posted...

Bullet_Wing posted...

Are guns even an issue right now?

When one of the major parties includes banning firearms based on how scary they look and removing a Constitutional right from people on secret government watch lists in their official party platform, yes, they're still an issue.

Liberals - "Nobody on a watchlist should be allowed to own a firearm"
Liberals - *puts people whom buy guns on a watchlist and then proceed to complain about people on watchlists buying guns, in-order to push their communist agenda*

Lol. It's sad that people actually believe that.
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UrethaFranklin posted...

Trans issues = we wanna piss in the girls washrooms.

Actually no, most trans find the laws about bathrooms ridiculous and amusing. These are only going to affect lesbians and manly cis women. Trans girls are far more meticulous about their appearances on average than most girls.
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Sayoria posted...

UrethaFranklin posted...

Guns man. Trans are less than 1% of the population.

You are presented with a blue button and a red button.... both operating trap doors.

.... the red holds all the world's guns and the blue holds all the world's trans people over a bottomless pit, you'd push the blue button to save the guns and let all the transgender people fall, since it is only just one percent of the population, correct?

I mean, we are just a fraction, right? So you would?

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/25/us/hawaii-gun-owner-database/index.html
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Also, let's clear something up about 2A: the text is literally about guns, but really it's derivative of a right to self-defense. (Not to open up the debate about whether 2A was poorly written or a necessary compromise considering its historical context...)

2A isn't about the right of some inanimate object to exist... it's still a fundamentally human right, by proxy.
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s0nicfan posted...

http://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/canadian-lawmakers-pass-bill-extending-transgender-protections-n773421

Certainly there is some nuance to consider when discussing "transgender human rights." It's a large umbrella and I don't agree with 100% of the advocacy done under that banner.

Fortunately, US hate speech laws should prevent government-sponsored speech codes (like the one you cited) from being adopted in the US. While I support the civil, voluntary use of preferred gender pronouns, etc, I'd strongly oppose anyone who wants to codify it into law.
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Polycosm posted...

s0nicfan posted...

http://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/canadian-lawmakers-pass-bill-extending-transgender-protections-n773421

Certainly there is some nuance to consider when discussing "transgender human rights." It's a large umbrella and I don't agree with 100% of the advocacy done under that banner.

Fortunately, US hate speech laws should prevent government-sponsored speech codes (like the one you cited) from being adopted in the US. While I support the civil, voluntary use of preferred gender pronouns, etc, I'd strongly oppose anyone who wants to codify it into law.

Sure. My point was it's a bit naive to claim that nobody is pushing for Orwellian speech laws when in fact there are numerous groups actively pursuing that exact thing. Canada may have been the first to codify it as law, and the US constitution may offer more protections in general, but we can look at things like Title IX as examples of ways people have found ways around those protections to force others to act.

There's even bits of it you can see in the US supreme court already starting to bleed into law:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2017/02/24/supreme_court_reprimands_groups_for_misgendering_gavin_grimm.html

And on Friday, a spokeswoman for the court informed me that the clerk, Scott S. Harris, had sent out letters reprimanding the groups that misgendered Grimm and demanding that they comply with the rules moving forward. You can read the letters here and here.

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So TC is really asking us to weigh transpeople against inanimate objects.

Also calling them 'trans' instead of 'transpeople' is akin to referring to black people as 'the blacks.' It's dehumanizing, and I'm pretty sure we all know that, which is why we don't see this in common parlance anymore. Grow up.
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I can care about the rights of both, so I do.
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s0nicfan posted...

Sure. My point was it's a bit naive to claim that nobody is pushing for Orwellian speech laws when in fact there are numerous groups actively pursuing that exact thing. Canada may have been the first to codify it as law, and the US constitution may offer more protections in general, but we can look at things like Title IX as examples of ways people have found ways around those protections to force others to act.

There's even bits of it you can see in the US supreme court already starting to bleed into law:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2017/02/24/supreme_court_reprimands_groups_for_misgendering_gavin_grimm.html

And on Friday, a spokeswoman for the court informed me that the clerk, Scott S. Harris, had sent out letters reprimanding the groups that misgendered Grimm and demanding that they comply with the rules moving forward. You can read the letters here and here.

Okay, fair enough. I definitely didn't mean to imply that nobody is pushing for speech laws; rather, out of all of the transgender rights related media I've been exposed to (admittedly a small sample), legitimate attacks on free speech have made up an exceedingly small percentage.

You've pointed out several examples I was previously unaware of, though. So I must concede that there are more cases of this than I thought. I don't think it negates my answer to the original question posed ITT, but perhaps my answer should be updated to include a larger asterisk.
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Polycosm posted...

Okay, fair enough. I definitely didn't mean to imply that nobody is pushing for speech laws; rather, out of all of the transgender rights related media I've been exposed to (admittedly a small sample), legitimate attacks on free speech have made up an exceedingly small percentage.

You've pointed out several examples I was previously unaware of, though. So I must concede that there are more cases of this than I thought. I don't think it negates my answer to the original question posed ITT, but perhaps my answer should be updated to include a larger asterisk.

I agree your original answer is still valid, we just need to be careful that we're not rushing so quickly to give things away that we don't toss the baby with the bathwater and end up costing the whole country meaningful civil liberties.
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UrethaFranklin posted...

Sayoria posted...

UrethaFranklin posted...

Guns man. Trans are less than 1% of the population.

You are presented with a blue button and a red button.... both operating trap doors.

.... the red holds all the world's guns and the blue holds all the world's trans people over a bottomless pit, you'd push the blue button to save the guns and let all the transgender people fall, since it is only just one percent of the population, correct?

I mean, we are just a fraction, right? So you would?

Ok, everyone gets it, youre trans. You're just as bad as gunpla.

Gun issues = taking away guns. This is bad. I live in the country. When an animal comes to attack our animals, or us, it's very useful to have a gun.

Trans issues = we wanna piss in the girls washrooms.

Im not advocating the death of trans people here, its simple and youre jumping to conclusions.

.....I'm just as bad as Gunpla?

Hey CE, we got a newb here. Get the hot coals out and the wedgie maker.

And FYI, there's also the issues of families disowning teens, trans people being kept from treatment and surgery, this new military thing, legal documentation changing, depression, anti-LGBT conversion camps, suicide rates, murder rates, job employment discrimination, finding people who would love them for who they are rather than what they are... and more.

Sit down.
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Gun issues, trans issues don't matter as much to me, but guns are an important right to keep an eye on.
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Malcrasternus posted...

I can care about the rights of both, so I do.

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Mal_Fet posted...

The one that's in the Constitution

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Sayoria posted...

UrethaFranklin posted...

Sayoria posted...

UrethaFranklin posted...

Guns man. Trans are less than 1% of the population.

You are presented with a blue button and a red button.... both operating trap doors.

.... the red holds all the world's guns and the blue holds all the world's trans people over a bottomless pit, you'd push the blue button to save the guns and let all the transgender people fall, since it is only just one percent of the population, correct?

I mean, we are just a fraction, right? So you would?

Ok, everyone gets it, youre trans. You're just as bad as gunpla.

Gun issues = taking away guns. This is bad. I live in the country. When an animal comes to attack our animals, or us, it's very useful to have a gun.

Trans issues = we wanna piss in the girls washrooms.

Im not advocating the death of trans people here, its simple and youre jumping to conclusions.

.....I'm just as bad as Gunpla?

Hey CE, we got a newb here. Get the hot coals out and the wedgie maker.

And FYI, there's also the issues of families disowning teens, trans people being kept from treatment and surgery, this new military thing, legal documentation changing, depression, anti-LGBT conversion camps, suicide rates, murder rates, job employment discrimination, finding people who would love them for who they are rather than what they are... and more.

Sit down.

Okay and that effects literally less 1% of people, where as a good chunk of the population who live where i live need their rifles.

It's not that I don't care about trans, i just care about guns more. They're more relevant to me.

Guns, since there is no make believe involved.
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UrethaFranklin posted...

Sayoria posted...

UrethaFranklin posted...

Sayoria posted...

UrethaFranklin posted...

Guns man. Trans are less than 1% of the population.

You are presented with a blue button and a red button.... both operating trap doors.

.... the red holds all the world's guns and the blue holds all the world's trans people over a bottomless pit, you'd push the blue button to save the guns and let all the transgender people fall, since it is only just one percent of the population, correct?

I mean, we are just a fraction, right? So you would?

Ok, everyone gets it, youre trans. You're just as bad as gunpla.

Gun issues = taking away guns. This is bad. I live in the country. When an animal comes to attack our animals, or us, it's very useful to have a gun.

Trans issues = we wanna piss in the girls washrooms.

Im not advocating the death of trans people here, its simple and youre jumping to conclusions.

.....I'm just as bad as Gunpla?

Hey CE, we got a newb here. Get the hot coals out and the wedgie maker.

And FYI, there's also the issues of families disowning teens, trans people being kept from treatment and surgery, this new military thing, legal documentation changing, depression, anti-LGBT conversion camps, suicide rates, murder rates, job employment discrimination, finding people who would love them for who they are rather than what they are... and more.

Sit down.

Okay and that effects literally less 1% of people, where as a good chunk of the population who live where i live need their rifles.

It's not that I don't care about trans, i just care about guns more. They're more relevant to me.

So suicide, murder, and little kids being thrown out on the street is less important than guns. Okay, I got you.
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A trans' right to bare arms shall not be infringed.
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