Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Archer, Cloud and Terra vs. Kuja, Alice, Sora and Dracula

(+) Yeah! (+)

Also like, if you really wanna get into the presentation of Sora vs FF Characters within KH.

Sephiroth after the fight in endgame KH2, kinda blows Sora off, and says "only Cloud can put an end to him" more or less, and then Seph + Cloud have a wirefu battle where Seph gives Cloud more respect than he gave Sora, with Tifa spectating. This Sora is probably below AC Cloud if you wanna really get into that.

Or I can be ninja'd that's cool.
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Skyridge87 posted...

I find it strange that no one ever points out Cloud getting shot point blank in the face during AC and only gets a small cut out of it. Reminds me a lot of that Dante feat, actually.

That's because his goggles blocked the shot. He didn't actually get hit, just grazed.

Also re: Cloud/Sora, Sora>Cloud, but it's not like it's not a super drawn-out slugfest. It's very close, especially with the old M4 Sora writeup. DDD Sora and on would shithouse Cloud really badly because his toolbox is enormous and his wirefu comically good.

Regardless, though...I think Archer takes this one. Dracula can't keep up with him, and Alice can't check him well. If he takes Kuja down, it's all over and I think he can do that.
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Ninja Wang, never know when he'll pop up.
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I *really* fail to see how Archer can take down Kuja if he's also being hit by Drac (seems likely to me given Drac's love of AoE spam), plus dealing with whatever Alice is up to. I don't think he can really tank Drac with his magic defense being what it is. Demonic Megiddo would kill him about as surely as Flare Star.
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That being said I still think for all intents and purposes they're equal in this fight. Neither one is putting the other down quickly enough that Archer (or Kuja if you're going that way) hasn't already ended the fight. I also think it's the natural thing that Sora and Cloud would duel to start cause Sora has history with a dude that looks and acts very like this Cloud, and Cloud fighting the melee seems natural.
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Basically he's being given credit to check three people here. Two of which directly should be able to drop him if they land a clean shot. That's...odd, even for Archer hype.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Skyridge87 posted...

I find it strange that no one ever points out Cloud getting shot point blank in the face during AC and only gets a small cut out of it. Reminds me a lot of that Dante feat, actually.

That's because his goggles blocked the shot. He didn't actually get hit, just grazed..

What sort of goggles can block a point blank bullet?

DeathChicken posted...

Basically he's being given credit to check three people here. Two of which directly should be able to drop him if they land a clean shot.

And you're giving zero credit to Terra, honestly.

DeathChicken posted...

That's...odd, even for Archer hype.

Not really, no. If anything that's exactly where Archer shines and that's shown to be exactly the case in every single fight. Lancer, Caster, Berserker, etc all if they could tag Archer would kill him. And eventually Berserker does, but he does a tremendous amount of times before he does so.

The goggles somehow flew off his face and the ricochet of the bullet cut him, so yeah. Magic goggles made of adamantium (or Advent Children just being a dumb movie, take your pick)
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Nah, Archer is a tanky guy and even though his magic defense is low it's not like he suddenly can't take a hit. But more importantly it's that combat is his absolute speciality and he's the guy who would pull off what's a normally difficult fight as a regular one.

And then there's the matter of speed. Speed of attacks, movements, far exceeds anyone else. It's not that he gets checked, it's that he just runs through and can fire off rocket buster swords or whatever sword Terra has for quick range purposes. Which shouldn't be particularly hard to reproduce, at that. He's got far better output and far better speed.
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I should clarify, I don't think he jobs to any old low level spell. But he's looking to eat spells from Trance Kuja and Dracula here while trying to stop whatever physical attacks are coming from in front of him. I'll say again, that's silly even for Archer hype (and frankly a little beyond his shown feats. That's dopier than beating Caster when she began a mile above him with nothing to get in the way of his arrow, etc)
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... actually went to look up Terra's sword and laughed.

It has an attack power of 250, +7 Strength and Magic, +20 Evasion and Magic Evasion, consumes 20 MP to deal Critical Hits, and enables the Bushido and Runic commands.

Runic absorbs spells with the sword. Even Ultima.
Convenient weapon to have for him
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What's so special about AC Cloud? I watched almost all his fight clips and he never seemed special outside of being able to essentially fly. His attacks aren't super fast, he's not especially durable, and he gets rocked by a weakened Sephiroth and only wins because Seph, as usual, screwed around for too long.
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I feel like the terrain hurts Kuja more than anyone. Like Archer speedblitzing him before he even starts flying much is a legit possibility here. Caster starting a mile up was an advantage for her not a disadvantage.
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Pretty sure we went over this before, but that's just phrased poorly. It means the weapon allows Cyan and Celes to use Bushido and Runic if they have that weapon equipped. EVERY sword has that modifier.

Kinglicious posted...

It has an attack power of 250, +7 Strength and Magic, +20 Evasion and Magic Evasion, consumes 20 MP to deal Critical Hits, and enables the Bushido and Runic commands.

Nah, this is that wiki being stupid.

It means you can use Bushido or Runic techs while the sword is equipped. Doesn't literally give the commands.
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We did go over that before, yes. Doesn't work that way.
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It enables Bushido and Runic for Cyan and Celes (and Gogo I guess). If Terra could use Runic that sword would let her, but she can't.
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Guys I heard if Celes had the sword she could Runic
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It gave Archer an utterly clear shot from ground level to Caster hovering above. He used it, she died (after trying to throw up a shield in front of the arrow that didn't work). That was one of the worst tactical plans she could have come up with.
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DeathChicken posted...

But he's looking to eat spells from Trance Kuja and Dracula here while trying to stop whatever physical attacks are coming from in front of him.

It's also worth noting that Kuja/Dracula have good synergy. Like, Archer and Cloud can definitely dodge Dracula's stuff in a vacuum. But Dracula is great at zoning. He fires off a bunch of fire pillars and lasers, and you get in the gap, and then Kuja nails the gap with a big AoE.
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ah, gotcha. bad wiki wording all around calling it exclusive on top of that.
though Omnislash Archer is still legit a thing doable, for the other weapon.
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DeathChicken posted...

It gave Archer an utterly clear shot from ground level to Caster hovering above. He used it, she died (after trying to throw up a shield in front of the arrow that didn't work). That was one of the worst tactical plans she could have come up with.

Except at close range she's fucked as well. Archer beats caster 10/10 times because he has a solid counter to almost everything she does. Caster with prep time though would probably beat Archer, but in a straight no-prep fight Archer stomps her 10/10 times unless she destroys the entire terrain.

That's Caster's thing, really. She's never any great shakes in a fight (comparatively speaking anyway). If she gets into one without her huge amounts of prep, she tends to lose. She lost to, off the top of my head, Saber, Gilgamesh, Archer, Fake Assassin, kung fu Rin...
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On the other hand given the scenarios she jobs in, would Kuja do much better against those opponents? Enclosed space with Rin getting the drop on him? Kung Fu Rin could take out Kuja I think.
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I'd certainly put the FF9 party above Rin when it comes to a fistfight (hey look at me, I'm hyping Zidane. Kind of), so no, not really. Caster just kind of sucks and Archer beating her says little about Archer being good.
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Well FF9 party faces Kuja in a very different scenario. Much better starting position for him, and he's not getting sucker punched

Also Rin's buffed out the ass with super gems.
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Not really. In the FF9 scenario it was him versus at least three people (depends on how you interpret Final Fantasy boss fights, whether it's just your 'chosen' party or everyone) with no one to block. Usually a bad idea for a mage, but apparently Kuja is tougher than your average mage and gave no fucks about taking on an entire party on his own.

Here he has melee up front to block, AoE magic to otherwise get in Archer's way, etc. Far more advantageous, doubly so when Archer in no way shape or form is gonna live once Kuja nukes him.
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I'm talking about if you threw Kuja into the scene where Rin beat the crap out of Caster in the role of Caster. Not this one so much, which is better for him than that scenario to be sure (and yeah, better starting position than he would be against the FF party though there are no Archers in the FF party either)
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DeathChicken posted...

That's Caster's thing, really. She's never any great shakes in a fight (comparatively speaking anyway). If she gets into one without her huge amounts of prep, she tends to lose. She lost to, off the top of my head, Saber, Gilgamesh, Archer, Fake Assassin, kung fu Rin...

But she absolutely destroys Rider with buffed Master, beats Saber in multiple routes and she doesn't get beaten by F.Assassin. She's only jobbed primarily to Gilgamesh, Archer and Kung Fu Rin (and even in that case didn't die)

Lopen posted...

On the other hand given the scenarios she jobs in, would Kuja do much better against those opponents? Enclosed space with Rin getting the drop on him? Kung Fu Rin could take out Kuja I think.

Considering by raw parameters Caster can use her tiny impractical dagger to sever someone's arm and with her hand strength alone to crush someone's skull. This puts her physical attributes far above Kuja from what I know.

Rider's the only one who somehow manages to job even harder than Caster on most routes, so that's no great example
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What sort of goggles can block a point blank bullet?

Goggles that deflect it. If you look at it in slo-mo you can see the bullet hits the goggles at an angle and bounces off. The cut is from the goggles digging into his skin, or possibly the ricocheting bullet grazing him.
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KamikazePotato posted...

What's so special about AC Cloud? I watched almost all his fight clips and he never seemed special outside of being able to essentially fly. His attacks aren't super fast, he's not especially durable, and he gets rocked by a weakened Sephiroth and only wins because Seph, as usual, screwed around for too long.

A) He has free usage of all of his limit breaks except Omnislash. They're all very casually activated (anytime you see him glow blue? That's a limit break).

B) He oneshots Bahamut SIN, who is tanky as fuck and highly destructive.

C) He cuts buildings in half.

So yeah, AC (Complete) Cloud is very legit.

(And Seph is at the peak of his powers in AC, per word of god. Not sure where the idea that he's weaker came from.)
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DeathChicken posted...

Rider's the only one who somehow manages to job even harder than Caster on most routes, so that's no great example

And even her I would take to destroy your team here, to be honest.

Anyway it's all largely irreverent to the situation at hand, since I don't see any real scenario where Archer immediately gets into melee with Kuja before he hops back and fries him. I *really* don't see any scenario where Archer lands a killing shot on Kuja before Alice jumps on him and he has Dracula's fireballs to contend with. Again. This is a situation where Archer is being called upon to check three people, and going "He's Archer and he's dumb" ad nauseam doesn't point to any situations showing that he can even do this.

Decking Caster one on one (when she was being Caster and taunting him endlessly with no cover between them), holding off Berserker in melee. I want feats where he takes out someone of this level while also dealing with attacks from someone *else* probably around that level and someone *else* who most certainly isn't, yet is annoying and literally can't be hurt for a period of time. Show me those.
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DeathChicken posted...

Rider's the only one who somehow manages to job even harder than Caster on most routes, so that's no great example

Dont talk shit on my Rider
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Well Ilya, who is probably contributing about as much as Alice, was around when he fought Berserker.
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Yes yes, you enjoy pretending one of my quite good people isn't there to further your narrative. I understand, dear.
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No no, I'm acknowledging she's there I'm just accurately portraying her contribution in a fight with Archer.

Ilya's taunting is probably more distracting, in fact.
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to be fair you don't mess with ilya.
unless you're gil.
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You have a literally invincible shrieking banshee hitting him with a sledgehammer. If anything, I see this annoying Archer enough to take a moment he can't afford (not when dealing with magic on the level of Kuja and Dracula) to deal with her crazy ass.
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DeathChicken posted...

You have a literally invincible shrieking banshee hitting him

nah.
that part ain't happening.
seriously he's far, far more likely to just run through her, kill her/think he killed her, and keep going to the next target. that's the kind of fighter he is. one target, two targets, three targets, multi-task a way to take them all out through multiple angles of attacks (e.g., rocket buster swords) across range and melee.
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DeathChicken posted...

You have a literally invincible shrieking banshee hitting him with a sledgehammer. If anything, I see this annoying Archer enough to take a moment he can't afford (not when dealing with magic on the level of Kuja and Dracula) to deal with her crazy ass.

All it'd take is a single hit or grab and she's thrown off of the small terrain and into the abyss.

On top of that...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Worth noting that Alice's hysteria mode only pops if she ends up near death. If she dies flat out it won't trigger I don't think.

There's this fact. A single slice, a single throw of a sword could deal with her.

Frankly if he goes for a "single hit or grab" then Kuja nukes and he's done. Any scenario where Kuja gets a clear shot on him and he's done. Any scenario where he gets hit by Dracula's bigger stuff like Megiddo and he's done. Any scenario where he gets wounded by Dracula's other stuff (Megiddo is just the big one, but his spells in general tend to fill large amounts of space) probably opens him up for Kuja to nuke him and he's done.

There are many, many scenarios here in which he gets tagged by any number of people and they all have the firepower to make him very dead, given their power levels and his lack of it when it comes to eating spells.
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DeathChicken posted...

Frankly if he goes for a "single hit or grab" then Kuja nukes and he's done.

Why? He literally went and carried Shirou around for half of the fight with Caster and both of them came out unscathed. In this case it's even more trivial to do it than that.

Personally? I put lugging a complaining Shirou around just a bit lower on the scale than having to deal with an invincible banshee. You are essentially writing Alice off as nothing, when if she slows Archer down *at all* then he's probably going to die.

Hell, it even fits Wang's narrative up there. Target 1, down. Target 2...Target 1 is back up. Target 1 won't die for whatever reason. Target 2 shoots you while Target 3 is also shooting you and you die.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

A) He has free usage of all of his limit breaks except Omnislash. They're all very casually activated (anytime you see him glow blue? That's a limit break).

I don't see how this is different from normal Cloud. I think you're implying that Cloud can Limit Break whenever but in practice I don't agree with that at all. If he could do that he would have done it against Sephiroth right away. Limit Break is always something that needs to be built up to.

B) He oneshots Bahamut SIN, who is tanky as fuck and highly destructive.
C) He cuts buildings in half.

His strength is good, yeah, but I think that's the only advantage he has over Sora (who also cuts buildings in half).

(And Seph is at the peak of his powers in AC, per word of god. Not sure where the idea that he's weaker came from.)

Fair enough if true, but Seph still ran rings around him. I don't think Cloud put up the slightest bit of resistance until he cheesed the fight via OP Limit Break. If Sephiroth had intended to kill from the start...or like, at any point, Cloud would be dead.

Essentially I just think that Cloud would have trouble hitting Sora. Sora is far more agile and attacks much faster. Sora's also got a better magic arsenal. The only advantage Cloud has is higher Attack but it's not that much higher. Cloud is legit but in this matchup it's one I'm confident he loses, even if it wouldn't be a stomp or anything.
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KamikazePotato posted...

Limit Break is always something that needs to be built up to.

Until stupid ass Advent Children yes.
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DeathChicken posted...

I put lugging a complaining Shirou around just a bit lower on the scale than having to deal with an invincible banshee

In the end they're both as effective in combat in comparison to Archer.

DeathChicken posted...

if she slows Archer down *at all* then he's probably going to die.

See I just straight up disagree here. You're criminally disrespecting Archer here.

I can summarize that Cloud/Sephy fight as thus. "Cloud and Sephy are Flynning their swords! Sephy throws Cloud away. Sephy taunts. Cloud and Sephy are Flynning their swords! Sephy throws Cloud away. Sephy taunts."

*repeat for ten minutes*

"Sephy stabs Cloud! Taunts! Omnislash lol Cloud wins"
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