Current Events > Starcraft remaster release date 8/14 $15

(+) Yeah! (+)

When the fuck did "white wash" become be "less" evil?
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EnragedSlith posted...

Kerrigan's whole arc in brood war was becoming an irredeemable monster. She wasn't controlled by the xel naga. Raynor grew to DESPISE her.

And the Overmind capturing her wasn't some plot to one up his "masters", it was to assimilate a race with latent psychic abilities, which was central to their entire squabble with the protoss. And let's not forget that the Overmind's entire backstory was literally killing off the xel naga and chasing them out of the galaxy. The xel naga were researchers and scientists and didn't anticipate that their creation was aware of them.

The entire point of Starcraft was humans caught in the middle of a millennia long struggle between two advanced space faring races and humans being a natural bridge between zerg and the protoss. The xel naga returning to finish what they started is a perfectly fine direction to take the story, especially since it was established in the first game, but retconning other key components to create an entirely different narrative is lazy at best and turned an interesting IP into a generic abysmal mess.

And yes, they "white washed" the zerg. The zerg were the villains of the first game. They're a Ridley Scott's Alien inspired race that exists to consume and assimilate. That their entire drive was retconned as Xel Naga controlled is fucking stupid and contradicts their origin outlined in game and in the original manual

1. Kerrigan was being controlled by Amon, as was the Overmind. Amon's goal was to end all life in the universe, and the other Xel'Naga opposed him, so he used the Zerg to destroy the Xel'Naga and later hijacked the Protoss.

2. The Overmind was being directly controlled by Amon and they needed Kerrigan's essence to enhance their evolution faster because for some reason they were not able to infest Protoss. Later, Duran/Narud use Xel'Naga technology to create a hybrid race, but it was still very different than what an 'infested protoss' would look like conceptually.

3. These are not really story retcons as much as they are new information that we didn't know previously. Darth Vader turning out to be Luke's father isn't a retcon for A New Hope, it's just new information that changes what we previously thought about the events before us.

4. The Zerg are actually inspired by WH40K Tyranids, and the Zerg that appear in StarCraft / Brood War were created from the Primal Zerg by the Xel'Naga. Their origins were expanded upon, not contradicted. Rather, the Zerg in the original manual are the Primal Zerg, and the Zerg you fight in Brood War were taken over by Amon.

I don't know why you're complaining about this so heavily as it was clearly stated there was some secret unknown history that we get only hints about during the secret Zeratul missions. Duran very clearly lays it out that the whole Brood War was being orchestrated.
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I didn't play LotV, so I appreciate them tying up loose ends, but it's still a shitty plot direction. Concerning your Star Wars analogy, it would be like if Sheev turned out to have Vader under force mind control, and removing his helmet made him a good guy again.

And the Zerg had multiple influences. I'm not a Warhammer guy, so I have no doubt that it may have been the primary inspiration, but there is plenty of Alien in there. Several quotes are lifted from that series
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Vader literally ends up the good guy in the end...... And the entire zerg campaign revolves around going to planets to assimilate species
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I Like Toast posted...

Vader literally ends up the good guy in the end...... And the entire zerg campaign revolves around going to planets to assimilate species

Yeah? He didn't turn out that way because he was secretly being mind controlled.
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EnragedSlith posted...

Yeah? He didn't turn out that way because he was secretly being mind controlled.

He wasn't literally mind controlled but he was manipulated and played by the emperor. The Dark Side of the force also has a corrupting influence.

Him being able to overcome it at the end and gain enough "Jedi" strength back to become a force ghost is not fundamentally different to Kerrigan being cured between the events of Wings of Liberty / Heart of the Swarm.
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The emperor pretty much does though
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EnragedSlith posted...

Kerrigan's whole arc in brood war was becoming an irredeemable monster. She wasn't controlled by the xel naga. Raynor grew to DESPISE her.

This. Raynor may have held onto some hope for Kerrigan when they had to join forces to fight off the UED, but it's pretty clear the moment she has Fenix killed that he absolutely wants her dead.

I liked Fenix and Raynors little bromance during Brood War and I wish we got to see more of their shenanigans together.
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VectorChaos posted...

EnragedSlith posted...

Kerrigan's whole arc in brood war was becoming an irredeemable monster. She wasn't controlled by the xel naga. Raynor grew to DESPISE her.

This. Raynor may have held onto some hope for Kerrigan when they had to join forces to fight off the UED, but it's pretty clear the moment she has Fenix killed that he absolutely wants her dead.

I liked Fenix and Raynors little bromance during Brood War and I wish we got to see more of their shenanigans together.

He did believe Kerrigan was essentially "dead"

When he learned that there was a possibility to "revive" her, things changed.

His suspicions are actually more or less confirmed, given that Kerrigan has literally zero memory of her actions as Queen of Blades. Later when she submits to Primal infestation, she retains full cognitive function, memory, and her personality--because as Primal Zerg she's not under control of Amon
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Hell yeah. Hopefully they bring ladder back too

what is wrong with what they did in SC2

is it is simply lazy

because all it is, is Sargareus from Warcraft

blizzard likes to rehash stories apparently cause Diablo 3 stole Kerrigan as well


also it destroys the older superior lore
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ChromaticAngel posted...

2. The Overmind was being directly controlled by Amon and they needed Kerrigan's essence to enhance their evolution faster because for some reason they were not able to infest Protoss. Later, Duran/Narud use Xel'Naga technology to create a hybrid race, but it was still very different than what an 'infested protoss' would look like conceptually.

This point is total nonsense and was completely retconned (as was the Zerg home world). Everything about Amon was made up after the fact and requires a rewriting of the Overmind's origin and why he explicitly wanted to assimilate Kerrigan.

Here is the original Starcraft story from the manual, which I'd recommend anyone read if they haven't, since it's excellent.
http://ftp.blizzard.com/pub/misc/StarCraft.PDF

Traveling thousands of light years into the burning core of the galaxy, the Xel’Naga eventually settled upon the volatile ash-world of Zerus. The Xel’Naga planned to continue their Grand Experiment of evolution, only this time they dismissed their tenets of physical form and focused chiefly on the pursuit of a distinct purity of essence. Residing in their massive ships high above the fires of Zerus, the Xel’Naga began once again to challenge the wiles of fate.

The Xel’Naga were more successful with their second venture than they could have imagined. They labored to advance the evolution of the most insignificant life form on Zerus, a race of miniature insectoids known as the Zerg. Through Xel’Naga proto-genetic manipulations, the Zerg survived the torrential firestorms of their world and thrived. Although extremely small, worm-like, and possessing no ability to manipulate their physical surroundings, the Zerg adapted to survive. They developed the ability to burrow into the flesh of the less vulnerable species indigenous to Zerus. Feeding off the nutrients contained within the spinal fluids of their hosts, the Zerg learned to parasitically merge with their host creatures. Once they became capable of controlling the metabolic and anatomical processes of their hosts, the Zerg used their new bodies to manipulate their surroundings.

The Xel’Naga, remembering all too well that their failure with the Protoss was a result of pushing the sentience of the fledgling species too quickly, decided to follow a different path with the burgeoning Zerg. Attempting to waylay the potential hazards of differing egos, the Xel’Naga structured the collective sentience of the Zerg into a unified, amalgamated ‘Overmind’. The Overmind coalesced into a semi-sentient being that represented the primary drives and instincts of all of the Zerg strains. As time passed, the Overmind developed the rudiments of personality and advanced intellect. Although the Overmind directed the actions of every creature within the swarm, it did so through the use of secondary agents

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The pride in their achievements proved to be the fatal downfall of the Xel’Naga. The Overmind, while slowly expanding itself into the void of space, became aware of the mighty Xel’Naga world-ships hovering ominously above the skies of Zerus. The Xel’Naga, having kept a constant watch on the Overmind, were horrified to find that it had actually severed their psychic link, effectively hiding itself from their view. With its need to consume driving its minions into a lustful frenzy, the Overmind launched the now space-faring Zerg swarms at the unsuspecting Xel’Naga. The ancient race did what they could to stem the tide of the ever-advancing Zerg onslaught, but in the end their efforts were in vain. Wave after wave of Zerg swarms hammered the reinforced hulls of the Xel’Naga’s ships with no signs of abatement. Within only a few hours the Zerg overran the defenses of their creators and laid waste to the Xel’Naga fleet. As the greater whole of the Xel’Naga race was consumed by the raging, genetic whirlwind of the Zerg, the Overmind gained the knowledge and insights of its masters.

The Zerg left the lifeless, burning world of Zerus and laid waste to every planet they found along their path towards the Protoss Homeworld. As they progressed slowly through the trackless dark between the stars, the Zerg assimilated only the strongest of the races that they came across. The swarm continued to build steadily, ever-increasing in size and power. As they progressed, the Overmind sent out numerous deep-space probes that scouted ahead of the swarm, searching for new worlds to plunder. Despite innumerable victories, the Overmind was greatly disturbed. The Overmind was aware that the Protoss had become a highly psionic race, able to bend and warp the very fabric of reality to their whims. It sought a way to counter the awesome might of the Protoss, but found no answers among the genetic strains it devoured.

On the verge of despair, the Overmind made an amazing discovery. One of its deep-space probes had relayed the location and vital statistics of a race that occupied a series of nondescript worlds, right under the shadow of the Protoss. The new race, called Humanity, was mere generations away from developing into a formidable psionic power. But the Overmind also knew that Humanity was still in its infant stages, hardly capable of defending itself against the ravenous Zerg. Although a short- lived and seemingly frail species, the Overmind knew that Humanity would be the final determinant in its victory over the Protoss. If it could assimilate the psionic potential of Humanity, the Overmind would have the ability to combat the Protoss on its own terms.

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dang what an awful trailer that shows literally nothing about the game. still hyped either way
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darkphoenix181 posted...

what is wrong with what they did in SC2

is it is simply lazy

because all it is, is Sargareus from Warcraft

blizzard likes to rehash stories apparently cause Diablo 3 stole Kerrigan as well


also it destroys the older superior lore

Blizzard likes having the bad guys win a lot too.

Diablo, you jam the Soulstone into your head in an attempt to contain Diablo, only to become his next host by the time of Diablo 2

Diablo 2, you manage to defeat all three Prime Evils, but Baal has already corrupted the Worldstone before you kill him.

Brood War, well, to quote Kerrigan herself at the end, "I'm pretty much the queen bitch of the universe."

The Frozen Throne, Arthas stops Illidan from destroying the Frozen Throne then merges with The Lich King
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yep

basically the writer took a huge dump on the lore Admiral just posted and said

"How can I wedge Sargeras into the story and make this Warcraft all over again?"
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Yeah, the whole bit with Amon was never alluded to, and, more importantly, is both uninteresting and basically the same thing they did with the Orcs in Warcraft. It robs the Zerg and even the Protoss of agency.
Here's an alternate idea: the Xel'Naga who were playing around with evolution were just a science team, and they've sent a battle fleet of crazy advanced ships to reign in an experiment that's out of control. I pulled that out of thin air, but it would be way more interesting than the usual "Everything has gone according to Big Evil Guy's plan all along!"

ElatedVenusaur posted...

Here's an alternate idea: the Xel'Naga who were playing around with evolution were just a science team, and they've sent a battle fleet of crazy advanced ships to reign in an experiment that's out of control. I pulled that out of thin air, but it would be way more interesting than the usual "Everything has gone according to Big Evil Guy's plan all along!"

not an alternate idea
this is literally the old lore

The Admiral posted...

Traveling thousands of light years into the burning core of the galaxy, the Xel’Naga eventually settled upon the volatile ash-world of Zerus. The Xel’Naga planned to continue their Grand Experiment of evolution, only this time they dismissed their tenets of physical form and focused chiefly on the pursuit of a distinct purity of essence. Residing in their massive ships high above the fires of Zerus, the Xel’Naga began once again to challenge the wiles of fate.

Notice how they have ships. But did Amon have a ship? He just floated in space.
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darkphoenix181 posted...

yep

basically the writer took a huge dump on the lore Admiral just posted and said

"How can I wedge Sargeras into the story and make this Warcraft all over again?"

It was literally hinted at in the secret Zeratul mission at the end of Brood War.

Like do you even fucking remember the game?

The last Zerg Mission, Duran, who was "totally loyal" to Kerrigan the whole time mysteriously vanishes during her time of greatest need, only to show up on some remote place building Zerg/Protoss Hybrids that Zeratul discovers where Duran reveals that he's secretly working for a higher power.

Like holy fucking shit you guys are acting like this wasn't part of the story the whole time.
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ChromaticAngel posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

yep

basically the writer took a huge dump on the lore Admiral just posted and said

"How can I wedge Sargeras into the story and make this Warcraft all over again?"

It was literally hinted at in the secret Zeratul mission at the end of Brood War.

Like do you even fucking remember the game?

The last Zerg Mission, Duran, who was "totally loyal" to Kerrigan the whole time mysteriously vanishes during her time of greatest need, only to show up on some remote place building Zerg/Protoss Hybrids that Zeratul discovers where Duran reveals that he's secretly working for a higher power.

Like holy fucking shit you guys are acting like this wasn't part of the story the whole time.

hybrids =/= Sargeras

were YOU paying attention?


and the whole point of the Hybrids were the Zerg and Protoss were the pinnacle of evolution
they were BETTER than their masters
and so having zerg and protoss hybrid would be frightening

but in SC2 this was not the case, they were just thralls to the SUPERIOR Space God
infact their existence was meaningless beyond freeing him cause he so powerful he don't need them
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Honestly my biggest peeve with SC2's story was Raynor's arc. His last words in Brood War were chilling, but that all went to shit halfway through Wings of Liberty and was just completely obliterated beyond that.

I still mad.
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APM posted...

Hell yeah. Hopefully they bring ladder back too

They are... Or did when Brood War went free
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darkphoenix181 posted...

hybrids =/= Sargeras

were YOU paying attention?


and the whole point of the Hybrids were the Zerg and Protoss were the pinnacle of evolution
they were BETTER than their masters
and so having zerg and protoss hybrid would be frightening

but in SC2 this was not the case, they were just thralls to the SUPERIOR Space God
infact their existence was meaningless beyond freeing him cause he so powerful he don't need them

No. Hybrids aren't Sargeras. Amon = Sargeras, and Amon, while not named in Brood War is still hinted at by Duran. You can think of it this way, Duran = Kil'jaeden and Amon = Sargeras. Hybrids were just the footsoldiers of Amon's path of destruction and always were.
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Hinting at the hybrids and a stronger force is not the same thing as completely rewriting the Overmind's origin and stated motives for assimilating Kerrigan. SC2 mentions that he did it to help free him from Amon's control which isn't hinted at in any form in SC1. In fact, it's completely contradictory to the story I quoted above, and it destroys what was excellent lore.

The story of the hybrids and even Amon could have been incorporated without making him some puppet master, or exaggerating him into a god who threatens the universe when it's clear the Xel'Naga were quite fragile and didn't have those kinds of abilities.
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again the point of the hybrids in sc1 was that protoss and zerg was the pinnacle of creation

they were above the xel'naga in that the zerg killed them


sc2 turned them into useless tools for the sole purpose of freeing the god of destruction who alone could wipe out existence


that is a completely different narrative
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darkphoenix181 posted...

again the point of the hybrids in sc1 was that protoss and zerg was the pinnacle of creation

they were above the xel'naga in that the zerg killed them

Not even remotely true
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I Like Toast posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

again the point of the hybrids in sc1 was that protoss and zerg was the pinnacle of creation

they were above the xel'naga in that the zerg killed them

Not even remotely true

if you believe this
then why did the zerg wipe them out?

both races revered the xel'naga still and sought after their temples

yet the xel'naga in sc1 lore feared both races

so the idea is a hybrid would indeed surpass their old masters if not the individual races themselves had already

but yea, not true NOW since retconning the xel'naga literally into space Gods

tbh though, even with sc2 story it seems odd that the zerg could overpower space gods



like the idea of a hybrid is supposed to be a big deal

a HUGE deal

https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/939643-starcraft-ii-wings-of-liberty/55867534

ever wonder why there is infested terran but not infested protoss?

it all goes into the narrative of the rivalry of these two races who were both children of the xel'naga


and sc2 took that and dropped it in the dumpster

it was no longer a huge deal

now it was just the cliche "i needed some slaves! what you gonna do?"
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Eh, I haven't played Starcraft 2's campaign myself, but I've heard some less than thrilling developments occur through out it, starting with the dumping of the player's character from Starcraft: Brood War with the "you were Artanis all along" being the biggest "what the hell Blizzard" among them.

When Artanis is introduced in Brood War, he's played up to be a hotshot new Preator sure, but he nonetheless acts starstruck when he finds out he's rubbing elbows with the heroes of the previous campaign; That includes Raynor, Fenix, Zeratul, and the Executor. That's a rather bizarre and contradictory reaction if he *is* the Executor and thus already has a supposedly established relationship with the other named characters, to say nothing of how said characters act like you're playing the same Executor in both the base and Brood War Protoss campaigns.

It's like they upended and reversed it to make the player character "the new guy" when Artanis already was made out to be it, and just to enforce it further apparently this "new" Brood War Executor is now Selendis who, from my understanding, gets played up as a largely do-nothing, incompetent chump that needs to be bailed out by Artanis repeatedly (inb4 "ah, so this is the real reason why we never saw female Protoss used in battle before" jokes).

And for the cherry on top that is Artanis in SC2, apparently the fucker bulls a "Hot Rod" and gets Zeratul killed because of his own stupidity *and* he's heralded as the one to "truly unite the two sides of the Protoss" which kinda just shits on Tassadar's legacy too. Seriously, was Artanis voiced by Metzen and/or was his favorite Starcraft character? Because this sounds *exactly* like something Metzen would do with one of his personal pets/OCs by making Artanis into Aiur Jesus.

I won't even get into the whole Raynor, Kerrigan, and Amon shenanigans... and I know folks are going to get on me about criticizing the SC2 campaigns without having experienced them myself, but man, I am not liking *any* of the spoilers I've read about and can't tell what's true and what's hyperbole because fanboys and haters abound, and in light of what's been going on with World of Warcraft over the last several years, and Diablo 3 for that matter, it doesn't give me the highest hopes for Starcraft either.
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In addition to Artanis, didn't they retcon it so that you were Matt Horner in the first game? Sure seemed that way from the stories he and Raynor.

Otherwise, it's even more bizarre that an amazing military tactician and key player in the war isn't even mentioned in the three following games.
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The Admiral posted...

In addition to Artanis, didn't they retcon it so that you were Matt Horner in the first game? Sure seemed that way from the stories he and Raynor.

Otherwise, it's even more bizarre that an amazing military tactician and key player in the war isn't even mentioned in the three following games.

Far as I know the Magistrate left Raynor's Raiders after the fall of the Confederacy (if you take Queen of Blades as canon). Horner was with the Sons of Korhal before Raynor and the Magistrate joined up, which comes straight from Blizzard's profile on him: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/hero/matt-horner.
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Oh I think there are enough minerals for that.
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Eh, gotta agree with a lot of the critiques of the story here. I was super pumped about the hybrids in Brood War. They were pretty dumb in SC2. And wtf with this pussy whipped Raynor and some sort of love affair with Kerrigan. And yes they really fucked with the Zerg story, so much so that I was very lost as to how things had developed before HotS. And while Artanis was pretty much the only protoss hero left, I don't remember him having much influence in Protoss affairs. What I remember was that he was pretty much the last commander of a battered and fractured race since the Zerg had destroyed Aiur and Shakuras, not to mention somehow infecting the matriarch. All this to basically tie in the stupid dark good idea, as if a Deus ex machina was needed. They could have just reintroduced the Xel Naga somehow, instead of making them God's. And the ending Arc of SC2 was bad, felt like a cheaply made "well we gotta finalize this shit somehow" attempt. Kerrigan turns into a Siren, oh no I mean a Xel Naga? Wtf she doesn't look or act Xel Naga. Shit made no sense except to "end" the Amon story. And get rid of Kerrigan and the now thoroughly pussy whipped Raynor.
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P4wn4g3 posted...

Eh, gotta agree with a lot of the critiques of the story here. I was super pumped about the hybrids in Brood War. They were pretty dumb in SC2. And wtf with this pussy whipped Raynor and some sort of love affair with Kerrigan. And yes they really fucked with the Zerg story, so much so that I was very lost as to how things had developed before HotS. And while Artanis was pretty much the only protoss hero left, I don't remember him having much influence in Protoss affairs. What I remember was that he was pretty much the last commander of a battered and fractured race since the Zerg had destroyed Aiur and Shakuras, not to mention somehow infecting the matriarch. All this to basically tie in the stupid dark god idea, as if a Deus ex machina was needed. They could have just reintroduced the Xel Naga somehow, instead of making them God's. And the ending Arc of SC2 was bad, felt like a cheaply made "well we gotta finalize this shit somehow" attempt. Kerrigan turns into a Siren, oh no I mean a Xel Naga? Wtf she doesn't look or act Xel Naga. Shit made no sense except to "end" the Amon story. And get rid of Kerrigan and the now thoroughly pussy whipped Raynor.

Also the purifiers were stupid. Didn't make any sense because they were a bunch of SC1 units, some of which were regular protoss. The big taboo against using them since they weren't in use for mellenia was ridiculous backstory and didn't fit at all with characters who were familiar with those units.

I like the Tal'Darim but they also had a stupid story. "Hey we're some renegade protoss that somehow consist of over half of all known protoss including your mysteriously massive fleet but you've never seen us before because we worship the dark god except right now because fuck that guy"

great points
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