Current Events > Sharia Law, Sharia Law, Sharia Law, Sharia Law

(+) Yeah! (+)

The content of this post is a series of tweets from Iyad el-Baghdadi, a refugee, Islamic libertarian, and Arab Spring activist whom I follow on Twitter... I thought it was informative, so I thought I'd post it here.
-----------------



The problem with telling Muslims to “reject Sharia” is that Muslims themselves don’t always mean the same thing when they refer to “Sharia.” So here are what I believe to be the four different things Muslims could mean when they refer to “Sharia.”





1) To some, “Sharia” refers to the entire practice of faith. Praying, being nice to your neighbors, fasting, e.g.:

Sharia has five branches: adab (behavior and morals), ibadah (worship), I’tiqadat (beliefs) mu’amalat (contracts), and ‘uqubat (punishments).

Those who use “Sharia” to mean this, consider it to refer to *every single action* that you partake in as a Muslim, not just “law”. To this group, demanding that they “reject Sharia” = demanding that they stop practicing their faith, full stop. That’s why they find such a demand offensive.





2) To others, “Sharia” refers to a methodology of extracting rules by relating religious texts to current contexts. By this second meaning, “Sharia” isn’t the content of the rulings, it’s the methodology used to come to the rulings. For example, how do you fast in Norway (long days in summer)? “Sharia” = how to reach an answer. There’s actually multiple methodologies. To this second group, “reject Sharia” = “stop relating religious texts to your daily lives” = stop practicing. So they find it offensive.





3) Third possible meaning. “Sharia” refers to a legal system, similar to Common Law, that evolved in Muslim-majority countries. By legal system, I don't mean the content of the law, but the procedure or process of interpreting or enforcing the law.

Aside. The similarity between Sharia (as a legal system) and Common Law isn’t coincidental. Common Law had Islamic origins: http://scholarship.law.unc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3823&context=nclr

Talking about the “brutality” of a legal system is meaningless. Common Law once had brutal punishments. Now it doesn’t, but it’s still Common Law. To those who view “Sharia” as a legal system, asking them to “reject it” is puzzling. You can’t copy and paste an entire legal system.





4) Finally, there are those who view “Sharia” as a code of laws or a criminal code. This is the most crude (and unfortunately widespread) view. To this group, “Sharia” is a rulebook of specific punishments. Interestingly, this is how most Muslim-majority countries interpret it.

Extreme Islamic groups view Sharia as a criminal code, as do right-wingers. Faith is reduced to a rulebook to be “imposed.” Asking Muslims to “reject Sharia” when it means “criminal code” is, well, we already do. To right-minded thinkers, this isn’t Sharia, but a perversion of Sharia.





Anyway. There is no longer an independent religious establishment in the Muslim world. It’s all controlled by governments now, which are despotic. So if you want to end systemic human rights abuses in the Muslim world, talk less about religion and more about dictatorship.

tldr
---

Mernardi posted...

tldr

Tldr problem is culture Islam is perfect argument #1685265
---

Bump!

Ice cream sandwiches taste good but ice cream on a sandwich is terrible
---

Culture definitely plays into it. The laws themselves are terrible but the culture of the area allow them to be taken seriously. It's easier when they've fostered a nation of people who fear god so it's easier for leaders to control them using "gods work"...and they have nothing in place protecting against that type of thing.

Bump...

Interesting topic. But if you can't present an argument as an easily digested soundbyte, people won't listen.
---

Tag
---

Anyway. There is no longer an independent religious establishment in the Muslim world. It’s all controlled by governments now, which are despotic. So if you want to end systemic human rights abuses in the Muslim world, talk less about religion and more about dictatorship.

The failed Arab Spring revolts showed otherwise. When the despots were kicked out and the people were finally given the chance to choose their form of government, they chose even stricter and more repressive Islamic rule.

Nice try, though.
---

Bump

Thought this was a good thread in a similar vein I spotted the other day:

https://twitter.com/MuslimIQ/status/873566159882395648

As has been noted itt, though, 'sharia law' is an easily digestible term that sounds vaguely foreign/threatening enough for certain types to scaremonger about it. It literally means anything these people want it to mean.
---

Shania Twain Law
---

NinjaBreakfast posted...

Thought this was a good thread in a similar vein I spotted the other day:

https://twitter.com/MuslimIQ/status/873566159882395648

As has been noted itt, though, 'sharia law' is an easily digestible term that sounds vaguely foreign/threatening enough for certain types to scaremonger about it. It literally means anything these people want it to mean.

@NinjaBreakfast That is a good thread. Thank you for posting. =)

This type of apologetics has been thoroughly refuted by people who left the Muslim faith and now argue against it. Every example we see of Sharia, whether in the Quran or in Muslim-majority countries, is a hellish barbaric one.

And even if Sharia was rainbows and sunshine (which it isn't), we should disregard it as a matter of principle. Allah is not real, and Muhammad was never any deity's messenger. To take rules from a book that is essentially an ancient myth is quite irrational. We don't need it to come to a set of morals that benefits the greatest number of people.

Shakira Law
---

QuantumScript posted...

This type of apologetics has been thoroughly refuted by people who left the Muslim faith and now argue against it. Every example we see of Sharia, whether in the Quran or in Muslim-majority countries, is a hellish barbaric one.

And even if Sharia was rainbows and sunshine (which it isn't), we should disregard it as a matter of principle. Allah is not real, and Muhammad was never any deity's messenger. To take rules from a book that is essentially an ancient myth is quite irrational. We don't need it to come to a set of morals that benefits the greatest number of people.

@QuantumScript What apologetics?

Glass_Phantom posted...

QuantumScript posted...

This type of apologetics has been thoroughly refuted by people who left the Muslim faith and now argue against it. Every example we see of Sharia, whether in the Quran or in Muslim-majority countries, is a hellish barbaric one.

And even if Sharia was rainbows and sunshine (which it isn't), we should disregard it as a matter of principle. Allah is not real, and Muhammad was never any deity's messenger. To take rules from a book that is essentially an ancient myth is quite irrational. We don't need it to come to a set of morals that benefits the greatest number of people.

@QuantumScript What apologetics?

Basically your entire first post.

QuantumScript posted...

Basically your entire first post.

@QuantumScript Explain?

Sharia Law!
---

I already did, in my first post. And stop tagging me in every fucking post.

QuantumScript posted...

I already did, in my first post. And stop tagging me in every fucking post.

@QuantumScript I'm sorry if I've given you reason to be angry. When I made this thread, it wasn't my intention to provoke. I'm afraid I still don't understand though. Could you please point out the passages in the original post that you take issue with? For my own understanding. =)

There are 52 muslim majority countries. Any claim that human rights violations is an issue of isolated leaders and not Islam needs to explain why every SINGLE muslim country is a human rights nightmare. Why slavery is ONLY practiced by Islam. Why FGM is ONLY practiced by Islam. Why laws punishing nonbelievers with death is ONLY written in islamic countries.
---

Cpt_Pineapple posted...

Shakira law

I can get behind that
---

The Admiral posted...

The failed Arab Spring revolts showed otherwise. When the despots were kicked out and the people were finally given the chance to choose their form of government, they chose even stricter and more repressive Islamic rule.

Nice try, though.

@The_Admiral You don't need to say nice try. I'm not here to try and do anything. =) Thank you, though.

Also, I'm not sure I agree. The people of Tunisia overthrew their government in the Arab Spring, and they inaugurated a republic, not a theocracy. Beji Caid Essebsi is their president now. The people of Egypt tried to do the same, but their presidency was overthrown by the military before it could take root. There are many millions of Muslims in the Middle East yearning for democratic reforms, and many millions of Muslims who were fortunate enough to grow up in republics who are now fighting to keep democracy from being extinguished, as they now are in Turkey under Erdogan.

Not nearly everyone wants to live under oppressive Islamic rule. The Arab Spring was a violent struggle for democracy in a lot of places. Violent struggles are unpredictable, and hence often hijacked by factions that don't share the original goals. That is the story of the Islamic State in Syria, and it will forever be a black stain on the conscience of the world that we were not willing to stop it from happening.

s0nicfan posted...

There are 52 muslim majority countries. Any claim that human rights violations is an issue of isolated leaders and not Islam needs to explain why every SINGLE muslim country is a human rights nightmare. Why slavery is ONLY practiced by Islam. Why FGM is ONLY practiced by Islam. Why laws punishing nonbelievers with death is ONLY written in islamic countries.

@s0nicfan There are many Muslim countries with human rights problems, it's true, but it fills me with so much sadness to see the amount of hate you've let into your heart because of it.

I'm about to go to bed in a few minutes. Before I sleep, I will fall on my knees and pray for God's light to shine upon you and show you all the peace and joy in the world. I hope you don't take that the wrong way, I don't mean to come across as sanctimonious... I said the same thing once to someone once who was in a very dark place, and he told me it saved his life to know someone, somewhere was praying for him to be happy, even though I was a stranger to him, and even though he was a nonbeliever. I hope the same warmth and healing fills your soul as filled his, and that you let your soul shine brightly with God's love.

Glass_Phantom posted...

s0nicfan posted...

There are 52 muslim majority countries. Any claim that human rights violations is an issue of isolated leaders and not Islam needs to explain why every SINGLE muslim country is a human rights nightmare. Why slavery is ONLY practiced by Islam. Why FGM is ONLY practiced by Islam. Why laws punishing nonbelievers with death is ONLY written in islamic countries.

@s0nicfan There are many Muslim countries with human rights problems, it's true, but it fills me with so much sadness to see the amount of hate you've let into your heart because of it.

I'm about to go to bed in a few minutes. Before I sleep, I will fall on my knees and pray for God's light to shine upon you and show you all the peace and joy in the world. I hope you don't take that the wrong way, I don't mean to come across as sanctimonious... I said the same thing once to someone once who was in a very dark place, and he told me it saved his life to know someone, somewhere was praying for him to be happy, even though I was a stranger to him, and even though he was a nonbeliever. I hope the same warmth and healing fills your soul as filled his, and that you let your soul shine brightly with God's love.

You should spend more time praying that people following your book stop killing in the name of it.
---

s0nicfan posted...

You should spend more time praying that people following your book stop killing in the name of it.

I do... Every night. =)

Glass_Phantom posted...

s0nicfan posted...

You should spend more time praying that people following your book stop killing in the name of it.

I do... Every night. =)

Well it isn't working yet. I guess they're praying harder.
---

s0nicfan posted...

Well it isn't working yet. I guess they're praying harder.

I have no quarrel for you. Only love.

Goodnight. =)

s0nicfan posted...

There are 52 muslim majority countries. Any claim that human rights violations is an issue of isolated leaders and not Islam needs to explain why every SINGLE muslim country is a human rights nightmare. Why slavery is ONLY practiced by Islam. Why FGM is ONLY practiced by Islam. Why laws punishing nonbelievers with death is ONLY written in islamic countries.

Can confirm.

I live in indonesia, to you american and europeans here, YOU DONT FUCKING WANT THESE POISONOUS BELIEFS SPREADING YOUR COUNTRY. Not even kidding, it is pure bile, poisonous, hateful and backward in every way possible
---

Glass_Phantom posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Well it isn't working yet. I guess they're praying harder.

I have no quarrel for you. Only love.

Goodnight. =)

I'll pray that when you wake you spend more of your day focusing on reforming the bad parts of your religion and less convincing others that those parts don't exist.
---

apolloooo posted...

s0nicfan posted...

There are 52 muslim majority countries. Any claim that human rights violations is an issue of isolated leaders and not Islam needs to explain why every SINGLE muslim country is a human rights nightmare. Why slavery is ONLY practiced by Islam. Why FGM is ONLY practiced by Islam. Why laws punishing nonbelievers with death is ONLY written in islamic countries.

Can confirm.

I live in indonesia, to you american and europeans here, YOU DONT FUCKING WANT THESE POISONOUS BELIEFS SPREADING YOUR COUNTRY. Not even kidding, it is pure bile, poisonous, hateful and backward in every way possible

I like to think most of us are aware of that.
---

s0nicfan posted...

I'll pray that when you wake you spend more of your day focusing on reforming the bad parts of your religion and less convincing others that those parts don't exist.

lol... I'm not Muslim, btw. ;)

Goodnight for real this time. And God bless you.

Glass_Phantom posted...

s0nicfan posted...

I'll pray that when you wake you spend more of your day focusing on reforming the bad parts of your religion and less convincing others that those parts don't exist.

lol... I'm not Muslim, btw. ;)

Goodnight for real this time. And God bless you.

Then unfortunately you don't understand the religion enough to speak for it, as I've seen a great many people being told when they point out problems with it.
---

s0nicfan posted...

Glass_Phantom posted...

s0nicfan posted...

I'll pray that when you wake you spend more of your day focusing on reforming the bad parts of your religion and less convincing others that those parts don't exist.

lol... I'm not Muslim, btw. ;)

Goodnight for real this time. And God bless you.

Then unfortunately you don't understand the religion enough to speak for it, as I've seen a great many people being told when they point out problems with it.

white supremacists seem to be the leading experts on islam
---

s0nicfan posted...

There are 52 muslim majority countries. Any claim that human rights violations is an issue of isolated leaders and not Islam needs to explain why every SINGLE muslim country is a human rights nightmare. Why slavery is ONLY practiced by Islam. Why FGM is ONLY practiced by Islam. Why laws punishing nonbelievers with death is ONLY written in islamic countries.

there's definitely both religious and cultural aspects to it though. for example, the bolded part is incorrect. I can tell you for a fact that albania, bosnia and kosovo are fine. there's probably others, but I can't say for sure (like probably kazakhstan)
---

ChromaticAngel posted...

Mernardi posted...

tldr

Tldr problem is culture Islam is perfect argument #1685265

Really, though, it's pretty clear;
- Telling people to reject Sharia is not necessarily fair because they may hold Sharia as a personal belief system and not a legal system. It is like saying, "Reject the light of Jesus Christ" to a Christian because some assholes use the term Light of Jesus Christ as the name of their asinine legal code.

Apollo spouting BS again.
and let me guess, he identify himself as the "persecuted minority".
we all know who the usual people with persecution complex.
---

Bump, and good morning!

Dash_Harber posted...

ChromaticAngel posted...

Mernardi posted...

tldr

Tldr problem is culture Islam is perfect argument #1685265

Really, though, it's pretty clear;
- Telling people to reject Sharia is not necessarily fair because they may hold Sharia as a personal belief system and not a legal system. It is like saying, "Reject the light of Jesus Christ" to a Christian because some assholes use the term Light of Jesus Christ as the name of their asinine legal code.

I'll agree with this when majority Christian nations end up being awful places to live.

Exmuslims are nearly all in agreement that the Qu'ran is a terrible manual for how to live life in any context.
---

ChromaticAngel posted...

I'll agree with this when majority Christian nations end up being awful places to live.

How many Christian nations are there, really? And when I say "Christian nations", I mean nations where church and state aren't separate.
---

scar the 1 posted...

ChromaticAngel posted...

I'll agree with this when majority Christian nations end up being awful places to live.

How many Christian nations are there, really? And when I say "Christian nations", I mean nations where church and state aren't separate.

I don't think there even are any. besides maybe some places in Africa? And I'm pretty sure those are all terrible. They basically have Christian sharia law.

Damn missionaries.
---

AugustAdoulin posted...

scar the 1 posted...

ChromaticAngel posted...

I'll agree with this when majority Christian nations end up being awful places to live.

How many Christian nations are there, really? And when I say "Christian nations", I mean nations where church and state aren't separate.

I don't think there even are any. besides maybe some places in Africa? And I'm pretty sure those are all terrible. They basically have Christian sharia law.

Damn missionaries.

There is only one and it's not really a true country and it's not in Africa.

But.

In the middle ages, there were a great deal of countries basically run by the Pope and while shit wasn't great it was much better than the arabic despots running shit today.
---

ChromaticAngel posted...

AugustAdoulin posted...

scar the 1 posted...

ChromaticAngel posted...

I'll agree with this when majority Christian nations end up being awful places to live.

How many Christian nations are there, really? And when I say "Christian nations", I mean nations where church and state aren't separate.

I don't think there even are any. besides maybe some places in Africa? And I'm pretty sure those are all terrible. They basically have Christian sharia law.

Damn missionaries.

There is only one and it's not really a true country and it's not in Africa.

But.

In the middle ages, there were a great deal of countries basically run by the Pope and while shit wasn't great it was much better than the arabic despots running shit today.

You're joking right??
---

so TC isn't even trying to hide the fact that he's a troll