Poll of the Day > Best starter Pokemon out of all of the starter pokemon round three poll two

(+) Yeah! (+)

Charmander:
https://media.tenor.co/images/4caf010a1ebec91e98aa46d466e0fe05/raw

Pikachu:
http://media2.giphy.com/media/OCdsZb1Er6aeQ/giphy.gif


Round three results:
Bulbasaur defeats Totodile 28-27

Round two results:
Mudkip defereteeterd Litten 35-15
Pikachu defeats Froakie 24-19
Chimchar defeats Snivy 18-17
Charmander defeats Squirtle 28-17
Bulbasaur defeats Torchic 20-10

Round one results:
Bulbasaur defeated Turtwig 35-14
Charmander defeats Treecko 23-9
Totodile defeatered Chespin 61-9
Torchic defeaters Chikorita 23-15
Chimchar defeatios Tepig 24-17
Squirtle deferred Cyndaquil 22-13
Snivy dofeats Fennekin 30-28
Froakie derferts Rowlet 23-19
Litten defeets Popplio 20-9
Mudkips duhfeeted Piplup 27-16
Pikachu dieferted Oshawott 28-12

It's a tough choice, but I'm going with Pikachu. That way he'll get at least one vote.

Plus Pikachu is an interesting entry given the weird move-set he's had access to over the years, including -- among other things -- surf and fly. The addition of the Light Ball item also helped to overcome his natural shortcomings as an unevolved Pokemon, which is something that not a lot of Pokemon get (the only other one to immediately come to mind is Chansey and Lucky Punch, which buffs Chansey's critical hit rate 2 stages... but it's still very inferior to just evolving it)
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Oh, plus Pikachu comes with a choice of hats in Gen7.
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Pika pi

Sorry I know I'm giving in to consumerism but I voted Pikachu

Still not shoved down our throats as much as minions are though
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@Zeus

topic was closed so you couldn't reply
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welp charizard wins the contest
who could have seen this coming
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TheSlinja posted...

welp charizard wins the contest
who could have seen this coming

Charizard? I don't see Charizard anywhere in the poll.
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Muffinz0rz posted...

@Zeus

topic was closed so you couldn't reply

Starter pokemon count evolutions. That's common sense. Even when a Charmander is fully evolved to Charizard, he's still the same Pokemon you've been raising. And when you pick between Bulbasaur, Squirtle, and Charmander, it's with the knowledge that they evolve into Venusaur, Blastoise, and Charizard... and the knowledge that Blastoise is junk and Charizard is damn near killed by stealth rock. I guess what I'm trying to say is vote Bulbasaur. #GoGreen2017

Plus even if you never evolve any of the starters -- which would be stupid -- Bulbasaur is still far more useful than Totodile because he has a deeper movepool.
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Muffinz0rz posted...

TheSlinja posted...

welp charizard wins the contest
who could have seen this coming

Charizard? I don't see Charizard anywhere in the poll.

dont play dumb, we know what people are voting for
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How the fuck did that stupid rat make it this far?

Zeus posted...

Muffinz0rz posted...

@Zeus

topic was closed so you couldn't reply

Starter pokemon count evolutions. That's common sense. Even when a Charmander is fully evolved to Charizard, he's still the same Pokemon you've been raising. And when you pick between Bulbasaur, Squirtle, and Charmander, it's with the knowledge that they evolve into Venusaur, Blastoise, and Charizard... and the knowledge that Blastoise is junk and Charizard is damn near killed by stealth rock. I guess what I'm trying to say is vote Bulbasaur. #GoGreen2017

Plus even if you never evolve any of the starters -- which would be stupid -- Bulbasaur is still far more useful than Totodile because he has a deeper movepool.

Is Charizard a starter Pokemon?
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Muffinz0rz posted...

Zeus posted...

Muffinz0rz posted...

@Zeus

topic was closed so you couldn't reply

Starter pokemon count evolutions. That's common sense. Even when a Charmander is fully evolved to Charizard, he's still the same Pokemon you've been raising. And when you pick between Bulbasaur, Squirtle, and Charmander, it's with the knowledge that they evolve into Venusaur, Blastoise, and Charizard... and the knowledge that Blastoise is junk and Charizard is damn near killed by stealth rock. I guess what I'm trying to say is vote Bulbasaur. #GoGreen2017

Plus even if you never evolve any of the starters -- which would be stupid -- Bulbasaur is still far more useful than Totodile because he has a deeper movepool.

Is Charizard a starter Pokemon?

He's the final form of a starter Pokemon so yes, he's still considered a starter Pokemon. More importantly, you're voting on Charmander who EVOLVES into Charizard (via Charmeleon). You can't pretend that Charizard isn't one of the perks associated with Charmander... well, I guess *you* can, but it's a terrible thing to overlook.
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Zeus posted...

Muffinz0rz posted...

Zeus posted...

Muffinz0rz posted...

@Zeus

topic was closed so you couldn't reply

Starter pokemon count evolutions. That's common sense. Even when a Charmander is fully evolved to Charizard, he's still the same Pokemon you've been raising. And when you pick between Bulbasaur, Squirtle, and Charmander, it's with the knowledge that they evolve into Venusaur, Blastoise, and Charizard... and the knowledge that Blastoise is junk and Charizard is damn near killed by stealth rock. I guess what I'm trying to say is vote Bulbasaur. #GoGreen2017

Plus even if you never evolve any of the starters -- which would be stupid -- Bulbasaur is still far more useful than Totodile because he has a deeper movepool.

Is Charizard a starter Pokemon?

He's the final form of a starter Pokemon so yes, he's still considered a starter Pokemon. More importantly, you're voting on Charmander who EVOLVES into Charizard (via Charmeleon). You can't pretend that Charizard isn't one of the perks associated with Charmander... well, I guess *you* can, but it's a terrible thing to overlook.

But did you start with Charizard?

"considered" a starter pokemon =/= actually being a starter pokemon
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To be fair, since it's about starter Pokemon, and ostensibly everything about them, their evolutionary line are something you can consider. It is an aspect of the starters themselves, after all.
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Tropic_Sunset posted...

To be fair, since it's about starter Pokemon, and ostensibly everything about them, their evolutionary line are something you can consider. It is an aspect of the starters themselves, after all.

Sure, starter Pokemon have evolutions. But their evolutions are not starter Pokemon. Therefore, their evolutions are not to be considered, because the poll series is about starter Pokemon.
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The debate of the century!

Muffinz0rz posted...

Tropic_Sunset posted...

To be fair, since it's about starter Pokemon, and ostensibly everything about them, their evolutionary line are something you can consider. It is an aspect of the starters themselves, after all.

Sure, starter Pokemon have evolutions. But their evolutions are not starter Pokemon. Therefore, their evolutions are not to be considered, because the poll series is about starter Pokemon.

I'll agree that their evolutions shouldn't be definitive in consideration, but if two starters are basically the same in your mind except one has a great evolution and the other one doesn't, are you honestly saying that shouldn't be a factor for consideration?

That's like people who want to buy a puppy, but would get rid of/abandon an old dog, even though that puppy will eventually grow up.
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Charizard is a starter. The Charizard you beat the game with is the same Charmander you started the game with. It's undebatably the same Pokemon.

This modern generation of players that only thinks of Pokemon as dex numbers sickens me.
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Tropic_Sunset posted...

if two starters are basically the same in your mind except one has a great evolution and the other one doesn't, are you honestly saying that shouldn't be a factor for consideration?

Of course - when I'm playing the games. But this isn't the games. It's a poll about the best "starter Pokemon."

Charmander is a starter. Pikachu is a starter. Charizard and Raichu are not.

Veedrock- posted...

Charizard is a starter. The Charizard you beat the game with is the same Charmander you started the game with. It's undebatably the same Pokemon.

Charizard is not the same as Charmander. Sure, that Pokemon may be the same one you used throughout the game, but unfortunately, their "Dex numbers" are different, simple as that. I wouldn't deny that the creature itself is indeed the same creature. But that creature changed throughout its life, and it changed enough to warrant a different Dex number.

The poll is not "Charmander, Charmeleon, and Charizard vs. Pichu, Pikachu, and Raichu." It's "Charmander vs. Pikachu."

To put it bluntly: Professor Oak doesn't hand you a Charizard on day 1. He hands you a Charmander. Therefore, you "started" with Charmander and eventually got to Charizard. You did not "start" with Charizard, and therefore, it is not, by definition, a starter.
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TheSlinja posted...

Muffinz0rz posted...

TheSlinja posted...

welp charizard wins the contest
who could have seen this coming

Charizard? I don't see Charizard anywhere in the poll.

dont play dumb, we know what people are voting for

charmander is my favorite pokemon, didn't vote because of charizard
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Muffinz0rz posted...

The poll is not "Charmander, Charmeleon, and Charizard vs. Pichu, Pikachu, and Raichu." It's "Charmander vs. Pikachu."

Because Pikachu can't evolve, he's a little shit.

But you're right, that's not the poll question because this isn't a poll based on dex numbers or evolutionary lines. This isn't a charmander you get out of an egg, this isn't a pikachu you found in Viridia Forest, this is the one you get at the beginning of a game. Starters are unique characters, not a dex number. The poll series is specifically about starters which are a unique instance of these pokemon. It's like if the poll were "Brock's Onix or Misty's Starmie," people wouldn't be basing their votes with Steelix or Staryu in mind, because these are unique instances of each pokemon.

You keep posing these loaded questions like "what pokemon did the professor give you" but it's not hard to ask questions with the opposite implications. How would you answer "did you use your starter to beat the game?" There is nobody out there that will say "no" on the basis of evolution, nobody is that petty and semantic because it's still the pokemon they started the game with, as you copped to.
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let me ask you this, when your charmander evolves, did you suddenly lose your starter pokemon?
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TheSlinja posted...

let me ask you this, when your charmander evolves, did you suddenly lose your starter pokemon?

Let me ask you this, when there is 22 options total and charmander still wins, is he the best or does nostalgia rule all?

What is going on in this thread?

I'm shaking my head.

Muffinz0rz posted...

But did you start with Charizard?

"considered" a starter pokemon =/= actually being a starter pokemon

No, it's still a starter because you're picking Charizard by selecting Charmander. They're not really separate things.

Muffinz0rz posted...

Tropic_Sunset posted...

To be fair, since it's about starter Pokemon, and ostensibly everything about them, their evolutionary line are something you can consider. It is an aspect of the starters themselves, after all.

Sure, starter Pokemon have evolutions. But their evolutions are not starter Pokemon. Therefore, their evolutions are not to be considered, because the poll series is about starter Pokemon.

Their evolutions HAVE to be considered because that's a part of the starter choice. The only reason you wouldn't consider evos is if their evos were also in the contest. However, when it comes to starters, people pick them at least partly BECAUSE of their final forms.

Honestly, if this was just about *Pokemon* rather than STARTER Pokemon, you might have a stronger case. However, evolutions are more intrinsic to starters.

Veedrock- posted...

Charizard is a starter. The Charizard you beat the game with is the same Charmander you started the game with. It's undebatably the same Pokemon.

This.

Muffinz0rz posted...

To put it bluntly: Professor Oak doesn't hand you a Charizard on day 1. He hands you a Charmander. Therefore, you "started" with Charmander and eventually got to Charizard. You did not "start" with Charizard, and therefore, it is not, by definition, a starter.

To put it bluntly, he DOES hand you the Charizard since it's the same Charmander you start with.
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NeoSioType posted...

What is going on in this thread?

I'm shaking my head.

Do you remember when Noam Chomsky and Michel Foucault debated on human nature?

It's like that but better

MICHALECOLE posted...

TheSlinja posted...

let me ask you this, when your charmander evolves, did you suddenly lose your starter pokemon?

Let me ask you this, when there is 22 options total and charmander still wins, is he the best or does nostalgia rule all?

Define best, though. Game function? Probably not. However, things like character design are more subjective and, while Charmander and his evos have simple designs, it's hard to deny that they're pretty appealing. He'd definitely be in my top 10, if not my top5.

Four of my top five are easy (because I exclude Pikachu, otherwise 5/5 would be easy): Bulbaur, Torchic (granted, more for the evos), Rowlet, and Mudkip.
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I'd like charizard more if he kept his OG megaton chin


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Zeus posted...

MICHALECOLE posted...

TheSlinja posted...

let me ask you this, when your charmander evolves, did you suddenly lose your starter pokemon?

Let me ask you this, when there is 22 options total and charmander still wins, is he the best or does nostalgia rule all?

Define best, though. Game function? Probably not. However, things like character design are more subjective and, while Charmander and his evos have simple designs, it's hard to deny that they're pretty appealing. He'd definitely be in my top 10, if not my top5.

Four of my top five are easy (because I exclude Pikachu, otherwise 5/5 would be easy): Bulbaur, Torchic (granted, more for the evos), Rowlet, and Mudkip.

Best:
Adjective
The one who is better than the rest of them

MICHALECOLE posted...

Zeus posted...

MICHALECOLE posted...

TheSlinja posted...

let me ask you this, when your charmander evolves, did you suddenly lose your starter pokemon?

Let me ask you this, when there is 22 options total and charmander still wins, is he the best or does nostalgia rule all?

Define best, though. Game function? Probably not. However, things like character design are more subjective and, while Charmander and his evos have simple designs, it's hard to deny that they're pretty appealing. He'd definitely be in my top 10, if not my top5.

Four of my top five are easy (because I exclude Pikachu, otherwise 5/5 would be easy): Bulbaur, Torchic (granted, more for the evos), Rowlet, and Mudkip.

Best:
Adjective
The one who is better than the rest of them

Still vague. Best in what context?
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Zeus posted...

MICHALECOLE posted...

Zeus posted...

MICHALECOLE posted...

TheSlinja posted...

let me ask you this, when your charmander evolves, did you suddenly lose your starter pokemon?

Let me ask you this, when there is 22 options total and charmander still wins, is he the best or does nostalgia rule all?

Define best, though. Game function? Probably not. However, things like character design are more subjective and, while Charmander and his evos have simple designs, it's hard to deny that they're pretty appealing. He'd definitely be in my top 10, if not my top5.

Four of my top five are easy (because I exclude Pikachu, otherwise 5/5 would be easy): Bulbaur, Torchic (granted, more for the evos), Rowlet, and Mudkip.

Best:
Adjective
The one who is better than the rest of them

Still vague. Best in what context?

the very best like no one ever was.
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Muffinz0rz posted...

TheSlinja posted...

welp charizard wins the contest
who could have seen this coming

Charizard? I don't see Charizard anywhere in the poll.

Shit posting.

You don't chose a starter for it's base form.

Veedrock- posted...

Starters are unique characters

Sorry, but at the end of the day, they're not. The Bulbasaur given to you is Dex #1, just the same as the millions of others who chose Dex #1 at the beginning of the game. It's purely sentiment to say that your starter is unique.

TheSlinja posted...

let me ask you this, when your charmander evolves, did you suddenly lose your starter pokemon?

Yes. Your starter disappeared and was replaced. Charmander, Dex #4 for example, evolves and disappears. It is replaced with Dex #5, Charmeleon. As far as the game and its data are concerned, your Charmander was erased from existence. Its stats, nickname, IVs, etc. were carried over to Charmeleon. It is simply an illusion to maintain the facade of you having the "same" Pokemon.

Zeus posted...

No, it's still a starter because you're picking Charizard by selecting Charmander. They're not really separate things.

What game were you playing where Professor Oak offered you a Charizard right out the gate? I was unaware of such a game.

Zeus posted...

when it comes to starters, people pick them at least partly BECAUSE of their final forms.

Well, unfortunately, those people are wrong. The poll is about the starter Pokemon. Charizard is not a starter Pokemon.

Remember the days before the internet was reliable enough to research evolutionary lines? Try and go back to a time like that. Pretend you didn't know about Pokemon Green. So you look at the box art and see that Charizard and Blastoise are the evolutions of Charmander and Squirtle, respectively. But take Bulbasaur for example. You had no idea what that evolution would look like. As a 10 year old trainer entering the Pokemon world for the first time, you have absolutely no idea what Venusaur would look like (or even Charizard/Blastoise for that matter).

These polls should be viewed through the same lens as one would see Bulbasaur all those years ago - having nothing but your imagination to guide you when it comes to their respective evolutions.

Zeus posted...

Honestly, if this was just about *Pokemon* rather than STARTER Pokemon, you might have a stronger case. However, evolutions are more intrinsic to starters.

I agree that my case would be stronger. But as is, my case is already solid. Nowhere in any of the polls in this series has TC mentioned evolutions. Just "starter Pokemon." And evolutions are not starters. Therefore, evolutions should not be considered.

Zeus posted...

To put it bluntly, he DOES hand you the Charizard since it's the same Charmander you start with.

Clearly just talking in circles on this point, but I maintain my case. He doesn't hand you a Charizard. That point is indisputable.
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BlackScythe0 posted...

Muffinz0rz posted...

TheSlinja posted...

welp charizard wins the contest
who could have seen this coming

Charizard? I don't see Charizard anywhere in the poll.

Shit posting.

You don't chose a starter for it's base form.

Not at all shit posting. Completely legitimate case. Feel free to peruse what's already been covered.
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Muffinz0rz posted...

Sorry, but at the end of the day, they're not. The Bulbasaur given to you is Dex #1, just the same as the millions of others who chose Dex #1 at the beginning of the game. It's purely sentiment to say that your starter is unique.

Except they are. Starters are designed differently, which is why no starter Pokemon is base form-only. It's also why all of the real starters conform to the same standards where each has 3 forms and is of one of 3 base types. You also can't encounter them in the wild in your game. They're clearly a unique class, just like legendaries.

Muffinz0rz posted...

Yes. Your starter disappeared and was replaced. Charmander, Dex #4 for example, evolves and disappears. It is replaced with Dex #5, Charmeleon. As far as the game and its data are concerned, your Charmander was erased from existence. Its stats, nickname, IVs, etc. were carried over to Charmeleon. It is simply an illusion to maintain the facade of you having the "same" Pokemon.

Oh, I didn't realize that you gave up your Charmander to somebody and they handed you a Charmeleon which has all of the same characteristics as your Charmander. Here I thought the Charmander you had became Charmeleon.


Muffinz0rz posted...

Well, unfortunately, those people are wrong. The poll is about the starter Pokemon. Charizard is not a starter Pokemon.

No, you're wrong. This topic is about choosing starter Pokemon and evolutions as much as a part of a Pokemon as its stats and movepool.



Muffinz0rz posted...

Remember the days before the internet was reliable enough to research evolutionary lines? Try and go back to a time like that. Pretend you didn't know about Pokemon Green. So you look at the box art and see that Charizard and Blastoise are the evolutions of Charmander and Squirtle, respectively. But take Bulbasaur for example. You had no idea what that evolution would look like. As a 10 year old trainer entering the Pokemon world for the first time, you have absolutely no idea what Venusaur would look like (or even Charizard/Blastoise for that matter).

These polls should be viewed through the same lens as one would see Bulbasaur all those years ago - having nothing but your imagination to guide you when it comes to their respective evolutions.

The only problem with that claim IS THAT IT NEVER FUCKING EXISTED! I don't know if you're too young to remember, but literally everybody knew the final forms. iirc, Venusaur's art was even in the instruction manual. The internet was more than developed enough to have all of that information, which I know because I had the information long before the games came out.

However, even if your blind argument did somehow work for Gen 1 -- which *might* have been the case in Japan only before the game had support -- it hasn't been the case since. People know the information and it drives their decision-making.

Muffinz0rz posted...

Clearly just talking in circles on this point, but I maintain my case. He doesn't hand you a Charizard. That point is indisputable.

No, he effectively does. How else do you get the Charizard? Do you trade for it? Do you capture it in the wild? No, you were given it by Oak (or that other professor in XY)
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Zeus posted...

Except they are. Starters are designed differently, which is why no starter Pokemon is base form-only. It's also why all of the real starters conform to the same standards where each has 3 forms and is of one of 3 base types. You also can't encounter them in the wild in your game. They're clearly a unique class, just like legendaries.

I never said they aren't unique Pokemon, but they're still Pokemon, just as any other. It's just three type-specific starters with two evolutions each, in succession by pokedex number. You choose one at the beginning of the game. There's nothing special about them, other than the fact that they are your starters. As I said, they're not special. They're dex numbers. There are plenty of other 3 form Pokemon who can't be encountered in the wild. But they're no less unique than the starters but for one instance, and that's because they can be chosen at the beginning of the game. They are not "designed" any differently than any other 3 form Pokemon.

The only reason the starters work like that (base form with evos, type triangle, etc.) is because that's literally how the entire series started. It also acts as a tutorial for those who are new to the series (if that's even possible these days). I highly doubt that will ever change.

Zeus posted...

Oh, I didn't realize that you gave up your Charmander to somebody and they handed you a Charmeleon which has all of the same characteristics as your Charmander. Here I thought the Charmander you had became Charmeleon.

As far as the game and its data are concerned, it is a completely different Pokemon. Different dex number, different stats, different EXP scale, etc. Then it carries over nickname and moves and level for obvious consistency. But again, any value of keeping your starter is purely sentimental. It's a different Pokemon.

Zeus posted...

This topic is about choosing starter Pokemon and evolutions as much as a part of a Pokemon as its stats and movepool.

The bolded part is what the topic is about. Your mind filled in the rest. Everything after the bold was added by you, not TC. The topic is not about "choosing starter pokemon and evolutions."

Let me put it this way - people are allowed to consider evolutionary lines just as much as movepools and stats. But factoring the evolutionary lines effectively contaminates the entire poll series because people aren't voting for Charmander - they're voting for Charizard. We won't know if people like Charmander more than Pikachu, because they aren't voting for Charmander.

Zeus posted...

The only problem with that claim IS THAT IT NEVER FUCKING EXISTED! I don't know if you're too young to remember, but literally everybody knew the final forms. iirc, Venusaur's art was even in the instruction manual. The internet was more than developed enough to have all of that information, which I know because I had the information long before the games came out.

However, even if your blind argument did somehow work for Gen 1 -- which *might* have been the case in Japan only before the game had support -- it hasn't been the case since. People know the information and it drives their decision-making.

Fair enough. I was born in '93 so my memory is obviously foggy about that. But I still maintain that, for the purpose of this specific poll, a blind approach to evolutions is appropriate.
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Zeus posted...

No, he effectively does. How else do you get the Charizard? Do you trade for it? Do you capture it in the wild? No, you were given it by Oak (or that other professor in XY)

The bolded word defeats your case. He doesn't give you a Charizard. I wouldn't deny that he does "effectively" give you a Charizard. Except he doesn't "literally" give you a Charizard. Therein lies the difference, and it's a crucial difference - you start with a Charmander.
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