Current Events > Do you think it's true today that you need a college degree to make it to the...

(+) Yeah! (+)

....do you think it's usually still true in today's day and age?
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You're better off going to trade school

Is there still a middle class question mark

Not strictly, in much the same way thst it's not strictly impossible to survive falling from an airplane without a parachute.
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Yes and no. Depends on what you mean middle class... making 40-50k a year before taxes? Absolutely not.

Upper middle class like 75-100k before taxes? No, but it's much less likely without a degree.

Also something to be said for how many college graduates make 30k a year or $10/hr and these aren't History or Gender Studies majors lol.
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Feline_Heart posted...

You're better off going to trade school

what kind of trade school did you have in mind mostly?
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Smallville posted...

Feline_Heart posted...

You're better off going to trade school

what kind of trade school did you have in mind mostly?

Becoming an electrician. I hear that they make good money and have lot of job opportunities

really? how much does an electrician make on avg. , you know?
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Smallville posted...

really? how much does an electrician make on avg. , you know?

I looked into this about a year ago, but I don't remember off the top of my head. I know that they're definitely in the middle class range and that their pay reach up to like 80k when they have a lot of experience. I think they have a different job title at that point though

Go to school to learn how to fix robots
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Eh, a college degree is mostly useless. Connections and work experience are what matter.
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College is for dummies and squares
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Yes, studies have consistently shown that people with a college degree, on average, make significantly more than those with just a high school diploma.

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/02/11/study-income-gap-between-young-college-and-high-school-grads-widens

The Pew Research Center has found that the earnings gap between millennials with bachelor’s degrees and those with just a high school diploma is wider than it was for prior generations.

Among millennials ages 25 to 32, median annual earnings for full-time working college-degree holders are $17,500 greater than for those with high school diplomas only. That gap steadily widened for each successive generation in the latter half of the 20th century. As of 1986, the gap for late baby boomers ages 25 to 32 was just more than $14,200, and for early boomers in 1979, it was far smaller at $9,690. The gap for millennials is also more than twice as large as it was for the silent generation in 1965, when the gap for that cohort was just under $7,500 (all figures are in 2012 dollars).


A lot of people counter with the unemployment issues of people with college degrees. Well, guess what, that issue is even worse for high school grads.


The gap has widened considerably, yet many young college graduates are underemployed – how do those two facts square with each other? It’s not just that earnings are improving for college graduates, says one of the report’s authors, it’s that life for high school-only graduates has gotten tougher.

“There’s a reason we call this report ‘The Rising Cost of Not Going to College,'” says Paul Taylor, executive vice president of special projects at the Pew Research Center.

“The driver of that widening is not so much that today’s college graduates are doing better than yesterday’s college graduates are doing; it’s that today’s high school-only graduates are doing worse than yesterday’s high school-only graduates,” he says. “The real story is the collapse in economic opportunity for people who do not continue their education beyond high school.”


They call higher education "the great equalizer" in administrative circles because it gives everyone, from the poor to the rich, a fresh start. It puts you all in the same relative starting line. The success of a college graduate depends less on how rich or poor you were prior to college, and instead depends on how well you performed while in college. Sure, richer/legacy students will have an advantage there because parents have more resources to help them excel in college. But the average student, regardless of their socioeconomic background or class status, becomes more competitive in college depending on how they use their time and the resources for which they take advantage.

You will always have that person who can make themselves rich or at least comfortable by starting a business, developing an app, or going to trade school. But that is more of an exception to the norm.
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Dr. MacadamianNut3 posted...

College is for dummies and squares

Dr. MacadamianNut3 posted...

Dr. MacadamianNut3

Dr.

Yessir.
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I graduated with a STEM degree and got my current job only because I had said degree. I currently work in material science. I graduated with environmental science.

There's about a 3% overlap, but having the degree proved I was trainable.

Can't how how close to the norm this is, though.
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Zanzenburger posted...

They call higher education "the great equalizer" in administrative circles because it gives everyone, from the poor to the rich, a fresh start.

meanwhile...
http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2015/06/02/college_graduation_rates_for_low_income_students_why_poor_kids_drop_out.html

At every level of academic ability, the low-income students were less likely to finish college than their wealthier peers. Yet more depressing: Exceptionally smart poor kids, whose math scores ranked them among the top quarter of the study's participants, were no more likely to attain a bachelor's degree than scholastically middling rich kids.
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Balrog0 posted...

Zanzenburger posted...

They call higher education "the great equalizer" in administrative circles because it gives everyone, from the poor to the rich, a fresh start.

meanwhile...
http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2015/06/02/college_graduation_rates_for_low_income_students_why_poor_kids_drop_out.html

At every level of academic ability, the low-income students were less likely to finish college than their wealthier peers. Yet more depressing: Exceptionally smart poor kids, whose math scores ranked them among the top quarter of the study's participants, were no more likely to attain a bachelor's degree than scholastically middling rich kids.

Of course there is much more work to be done. But that doesn't stop the fact that of the ones that do succeed, tend to do much better than their non-college graduated counterparts.

The point I'm making is that students who go to college and graduate do much better than those who do not. That leaves the point of those who go to college and don't graduate but that is a separate issue entirely.

Just because some poorer students are struggling doesn't invalidate the great advantage of the college degree. Instead, it just further validates it to the point that we need to work harder to keep them in college. And we're working at it, trust me.
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Zanzenburger posted...

Of course there is much more work to be done. But that doesn't stop the fact that of the ones that do succeed, tend to do much better than their non-college graduated counterparts.

The point I'm making is that students who go to college and graduate do much better than those who do not. That leaves the point of those who go to college and don't graduate but that is a separate issue entirely.

Just because some poorer students are struggling doesn't invalidate the great advantage of the college degree. Instead, it just further validates it to the point that we need to work harder to keep them in college. And we're working at it, trust me.

I didn't say going for a degree was a bad idea. I don't think higher ed is a very good equalizer any more, though, if it ever was. That's all.
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I guess I would add that there are probably many students (of all income levels) who would benefit from a less traditional higher ed experience

I think work-based learning, apprenticeships, and tiered certifications are going to be more useful for people in the future, especially low-incoem and nontrad students

but youre the expert to be fair
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Balrog0 posted...

I didn't say going for a degree was a bad idea. I don't think higher ed is a very good equalizer any more, though, if it ever was. That's all.

Fair enough. I'd only argue that it is an equalizer to an extent, but a lot of that has to do with the type of college you go to.

For example, a first generation student from a poor family with a poor academic history would be much better off going to a community college than a 4-year institution. Likewise, if they are more gifted, they may do better in a public liberal arts college, because those are cheaper and are chock-full of scholarships specifically targeting high-performing poor students.

In my experience, the students who struggle and leave college early are ones that went to the wrong type of college. Either one that didn't match their financial, academic, or geographical needs.

One of our biggest challenges as college administrators is making sure high school students make the correct choice for which college to go to in order to be successful. If I know a student won't succeed at my school, I will flat out tell them and save them the money.

The problem is with increasing budget issues, enrollment quotas are making it harder for universities to turn down anyone and they'll take anyone who shows remote interest and have that sweet government money.
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Balrog0 posted...

I guess I would add that there are probably many students (of all income levels) who would benefit from a less traditional higher ed experience

This I can fully stand behind. I am extremely critical of the current higher education system as it is and I'm trying to build a strong enough reputation to one day push a new kind of university system that majorly transforms higher education (assuming that doesn't already happens before I get there).
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For white collar work a degree is generally needed yes, but middle class can be easily obtained by learning a trade as well.
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voldothegr8 posted...

For white collar work a degree is generally needed yes, but middle class can be easily obtained by learning a trade as well.

I don't think its really that easy without some kind of institutional support still though

at least where I am skilled trades seem kind of hard to break in to
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Skilled trades are thrown around very often as the alternative to a college degree. What most people don't understand is how difficult it is to actually get a job as a plumber/electrician/carpenter.

In addition to the rigorous amount of education you need (can be 2-4 years depending on what you specialize in, and remember, that costs money), you need to have an apprenticeship of varying lengths. That apprenticeship could be paid or nonpaid. And even if paid, it's not going to be the amounts you see full servicemen paid. After your apprenticeship, you then have to be a journeyman (sometimes the same in some fields). Basically, all your work has to be supervised and signed off on by a full serviceman.

And you have to apply for those. A plumber isn't just going to take like 10 journeymen. It's like a residency. You apply for it and they select the ones that will help them with their job. And you have to log hours, which can sometimes take years.

Keep in mind that while you do all of this, you still need to eat, pay bills, and live your life. That is a very costly lifestyle for a person who started off poor to begin with.

Once you finally qualify to be a full service man, you can either work for a company or start your own business. Working for a company is more stable and secure, but it's just as competitive applying for those jobs than applying for jobs with college degrees. And starting your own business is just that: your own business. You have to market yourself, know how to do your taxes, accounts payable, etc. Not everyone can do that.

I have known many plumbers and electricians that have gone broke trying to kick something off the ground. The various costs for licensure, fees for permits to work in certain areas, and wait times after finally being certified are just additional barriers after all the education you obtain.

And that's without even getting into talent. If you don't have a knack for that trade, you're gonna get steamrolled by the competition.
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